Coaching Carousel (Basketball)

EyeoftheIllini said:

I just find the narrative that we in the board are being indoctrinated by insiders (except those smart enough to point it out) very bizarre. I have a long-time friend who is an Illinois alum. Illini hoops fan, but not what I’d call super bball knowledgeable. Never played any organized bball (was a soccer/wrestling guy). He doesn’t frequent the board nor follow Illini MBB on social media. During one of the losses in the bad 3-game stretch, he texted me saying something like Brad has to change this D. They’re terrible. I texted back and said, he doesn’t oversee D. His response was, what, who does? I said Hamer. He asked where he had coached before. I said that as far as I knew he hadn’t actually been a coach anywhere else. His response was WTF.

So my friend can tell D sucks and needs to change and can’t believe a first time coach runs the D with no insider indoctrination. But everyone on here who spend a lot more time on Illinois basketball and are much more knowledgeable than he only figured this out cuz insiders emphasize it? Come on, really?

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So this conversation where you parroted back the things you were told by an insider on this board to your friend is proof that your views are not being influenced by insiders?

My interpretation of the point @RabidDawgClassic is making is not that the defense has not been an issue. There is plenty of statistical evidence to back up the idea that it has. I think the point is twofold 1) the narrative that the entire problem on defense is very clearly one person's fault is accepted as a fact by many on this board, though 100% of the "evidence" for that narrative comes from one poster who at times is over-the-top and personal in his criticisms that it at least gives off the appearance of being personal; and 2) that posters on this board have so internalized the criticisms from one person that the response has been to parrot these criticisms, including the same over-the-top language and personal insults.

I tend to agree the defense the last two seasons has been a problem, and based on the track record of insiders I am willing to accept that Hamer has responsibilities over defensive game planning and is at least part of the problem, maybe even the entire problem. I also agree he does not have a ton of experience, and would like to see someone with more experience brought in. I would be happy if he were demoted or fired and replaced with a known quantity. But honestly, the way people have been talking about him on here has been kinda crazy, to the point where I genuinely feel bad for this dude. Honestly, the whole thing reminds me of the Steve Bartman stuff. Even if it's all true, and Hamer is some guy who took a job that ended up being too much for him, all this stuff about leggings, it's a bit much. I'm sure there are people out there DMing and emailing him the most horrendous stuff over all this too (and I really hope nobody on this board is doing that). There's always going to be a segment of sports fans who takes this stuff too far, but you also can just not. That's an option too.

Kilgore Trout said:

Given how universal the condemnation of our last years defensive "plan" and execution were, can anybody explain why BU is seemingly so attached to Hamer? If he is hearing from our AD, from big NIL contributors, etc that a change is needed, is there any other explanation other than BU just refusing to admit he made a mistake in placing the defense in the hands of an inexperienced assistant?

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Similarly, his apparent insistence that Ben is an "elite" 3 point shooter. Keeping Will on the bench in order to give Ben the opportunity to make one, just one, jumpshot was borderline treason.

So now it's Indy's falut. You can't make this stuff up

IlliniFan42 said:

It can also be as simple as the school year isn't over yet. There might be guys out there who have/want to wait until say May 1, potentially have contract terms that state as much. (Underwood for example has language in his contract like that, for example.)

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Fair point. Also, most universities operate on fiscal years that end on June 30, so the optimal date to start someone is July 1. Naturally, that's not set in stone, but it's a consideration.

RabidDawgClassic said:

But by your own words, you saw him as a convenient target of Brad’s ire, not necessarily deserving of it. Has your current opinion of him been formed by independent research and fact gathering or by the mob mentality of this board’s echo chamber.

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First, I actually did not state that I saw him as a convenient target of Brad’s ire, nor did I conclude he was not deserving of it.
I think that my post made it pretty clear what my thoughts were, so there is no need create something I did not say.
To be clear, I attempted to state that the defense that I observe and evaluate has been in decline for a number of years. (My opinion that others are more than welcome to agree or disagree with)
My observation and evaluation of said defensive decline appears to be accurate based not only on MY evaluation, but also by objective metrics (analytics) to support my own conclusions.
(Apparently there are many others that have gone through the same analysis and also have received confirmation of their observations and conclusions.)
Just because a number of people believe that they are seeing a poorly designed defensive scheme, or perhaps a poorly executed defense by the team, independent of finger pointing or blame, the analytics support my (their) opinions.
It matters not that there is also an “insider” that has a similar or stronger take than mine.

I will also add is that what is not seen on my post from December 2022 is that I was responding to a comment made by 0440. I was actually pushing back on his comment (one of our valued insiders) that we all appreciate. 0440 commented that Brad’s “outburst” (my word) or his “ire” (your word) was directed at Chin. I knew who Chin was, but I did not know who Hamer was.
While identifying who the person was (Hamer) I was factually responding to whether or not I knew who Hamer was prior to this season. It was in 2022 that I learned who Hamer was and that he has been our defensive brainchild for the past couple years.
Dating back to 2022 Brad has been talking about how poorly we have played defense at times. It has been obvious to the simple eye test and supporting analytics.

This past year we all observed a defense that was torched all season long with no apparent answers or solutions. No containment of a different average Joe having a career night against us every game. We’ve all gotten grayer watching our defense get lit up all year. That has nothing to do with an insider my friend.

Props to all the posters, and fellow Illini brethren that I share my time with on Loyalty daily.
No ill intent to you, Rabid, or others in any way, shape, or form. (Well perhaps some ill intent at times for the trollers).
I doubt many on this board would disagree that we’d all like to see a defensive team next year and beyond that more closely aligns with what our Beloved are capable of.

I would guess most of us have some semblance of intelligence and are fairly independent thinkers and appreciate our insiders while also forming our own opinions. For me, insiders give me a “peek behind the curtain, or behind closed doors” which provides some excitement regarding recruits, etc. But I don’t believe that an insider that is of the opinion that our defense sucked this past year and that we need to rid ourselves of that coach to bring in someone better is an outlandish thought that has created some grass roots movement. More than anything, that insider opinion gives me hope that JW or BU have the same thoughts that I have concluded.

Long post…apologies.
I L L . . .

the juiceman cometh said:

So this conversation where you parroted back the things you were told by an insider on this board to your friend is proof that your views are not being influenced by insiders?

My interpretation of the point @RabidDawgClassic is making is not that the defense has not been an issue. There is plenty of statistical evidence to back up the idea that it has. I think the point is twofold 1) the narrative that the entire problem on defense is very clearly one person's fault is accepted as a fact by many on this board, though 100% of the "evidence" for that narrative comes from one poster who at times is over-the-top and personal in his criticisms that it at least gives off the appearance of being personal; and 2) that posters on this board have so internalized the criticisms from one person that the response has been to parrot these criticisms, including the same over-the-top language and personal insults.

I tend to agree the defense the last two seasons has been a problem, and based on the track record of insiders I am willing to accept that Hamer has responsibilities over defensive game planning and is at least part of the problem, maybe even the entire problem. I also agree he does not have a ton of experience, and would like to see someone with more experience brought in. I would be happy if he were demoted or fired and replaced with a known quantity. But honestly, the way people have been talking about him on here has been kinda crazy, to the point where I genuinely feel bad for this dude. Honestly, the whole thing reminds me of the Steve Bartman stuff. Even if it's all true, and Hamer is some guy who took a job that ended up being too much for him, all this stuff about leggings, it's a bit much. I'm sure there are people out there DMing and emailing him the most horrendous stuff over all this too (and I really hope nobody on this board is doing that). There's always going to be a segment of sports fans who takes this stuff too far, but you also can just not. That's an option too.

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Parroted back? WTF. You think the Hamer elevated to AC was only announced on here? Maybe you don’t go and read about a new AC when he is hired. I do. And there are plenty of mentions of Hamer handling D in social media and in articles. I didn’t parrot back anything. Gave him information that I knew from other places than in here. And never expressed an opinion on Hamer in that conversation.

I agree that reactions on here about Hamer are a bit much. Never been a fan of derogatory nicknames and have never used his. In fact, I don’t think I’ve ever even mentioned (maybe very rarely) Hamer in a post other than in response to these “indoctrination” posts. So like I’ve said, this idea that all or most people on here wouldn’t know who Hamer is, his experience and what he concentrates on are ridiculous and quite honestly insulting.

the juiceman cometh said:

So this conversation where you parroted back the things you were told by an insider on this board to your friend is proof that your views are not being influenced by insiders?

My interpretation of the point @RabidDawgClassic is making is not that the defense has not been an issue. There is plenty of statistical evidence to back up the idea that it has. I think the point is twofold 1) the narrative that the entire problem on defense is very clearly one person's fault is accepted as a fact by many on this board, though 100% of the "evidence" for that narrative comes from one poster who at times is over-the-top and personal in his criticisms that it at least gives off the appearance of being personal; and 2) that posters on this board have so internalized the criticisms from one person that the response has been to parrot these criticisms, including the same over-the-top language and personal insults.

I tend to agree the defense the last two seasons has been a problem, and based on the track record of insiders I am willing to accept that Hamer has responsibilities over defensive game planning and is at least part of the problem, maybe even the entire problem. I also agree he does not have a ton of experience, and would like to see someone with more experience brought in. I would be happy if he were demoted or fired and replaced with a known quantity. But honestly, the way people have been talking about him on here has been kinda crazy, to the point where I genuinely feel bad for this dude. Honestly, the whole thing reminds me of the Steve Bartman stuff. Even if it's all true, and Hamer is some guy who took a job that ended up being too much for him, all this stuff about leggings, it's a bit much. I'm sure there are people out there DMing and emailing him the most horrendous stuff over all this too (and I really hope nobody on this board is doing that). There's always going to be a segment of sports fans who takes this stuff too far, but you also can just not. That's an option too.

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Thank you, Juiceman. You've nailed my thoughts perfectly. Are you a lawyer, by any chance? If so, would you represent me in Loyalty Court?

I would neither be sad nor happy if Hamer, Tyler or Kwa were fired or demoted. I want us to have the best possible staff, whether that includes them or not. In a perfect world, the staff would remain in tact, Tyler would produce a top ten offense, Hamer would produce a top ten defense, Geoff would rake up overseas, OA would lock up several players he has ties with and Kwa would be a wonder kid who brings absurdly great intangibles to the table. However, that's unlikey to be the outcome, so regardless of who is here, I just want competency and capability at all positions. I have no idea if we have that now. Obviously something needs to change with the defense -- especially if we're going to continue with the free-wheeling (but mostly effective) offense we put on display this past season. That could be staff, player personell or scheme. But the childish parroting of insults toward one person (two, if you include Ben) reveals a really ugly side to this board.

Time to pull out the broom for this post @Dan

STL Illini said:

First, I actually did not state that I saw him as a convenient target of Brad’s ire, nor did I conclude he was not deserving of it.
I think that my post made it pretty clear what my thoughts were, so there is no need create something I did not say.
To be clear, I attempted to state that the defense that I observe and evaluate has been in decline for a number of years. (My opinion that others are more than welcome to agree or disagree with)
My observation and evaluation of said defensive decline appears to be accurate based not only on MY evaluation, but also by objective metrics (analytics) to support my own conclusions.
(Apparently there are many others that have gone through the same analysis and also have received confirmation of their observations and conclusions.)
Just because a number of people believe that they are seeing a poorly designed defensive scheme, or perhaps a poorly executed defense by the team, independent of finger pointing or blame, the analytics support my (their) opinions.
It matters not that there is also an “insider” that has a similar or stronger take than mine.

I will also add is that what is not seen on my post from December 2022 is that I was responding to a comment made by 0440. I was actually pushing back on his comment (one of our valued insiders) that we all appreciate. 0440 commented that Brad’s “outburst” (my word) or his “ire” (your word) was directed at Chin. I knew who Chin was, but I did not know who Hamer was.
While identifying who the person was (Hamer) I was factually responding to whether or not I knew who Hamer was prior to this season. It was in 2022 that I learned who Hamer was and that he has been our defensive brainchild for the past couple years.
Dating back to 2022 Brad has been talking about how poorly we have played defense at times. It has been obvious to the simple eye test and supporting analytics.

This past year we all observed a defense that was torched all season long with no apparent answers or solutions. No containment of a different average Joe having a career night against us every game. We’ve all gotten grayer watching our defense get lit up all year. That has nothing to do with an insider my friend.

Props to all the posters, and fellow Illini brethren that I share my time with on Loyalty daily.
No ill intent to you, Rabid, or others in any way, shape, or form. (Well perhaps some ill intent at times for the trollers).
I doubt many on this board would disagree that we’d all like to see a defensive team next year and beyond that more closely aligns with what our Beloved are capable of.

I would guess most of us have some semblance of intelligence and are fairly independent thinkers and appreciate our insiders while also forming our own opinions. For me, insiders give me a “peek behind the curtain, or behind closed doors” which provides some excitement regarding recruits, etc. But I don’t believe that an insider that is of the opinion that our defense sucked this past year and that we need to rid ourselves of that coach to bring in someone better is an outlandish thought that has created some grass roots movement. More than anything, that insider opinion gives me hope that JW or BU have the same thoughts that I have concluded.

Long post…apologies.
I L L . . .

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Bottom line?

RabidDawgClassic said:

Thank you, Juiceman. You've nailed my thoughts perfectly. Are you a lawyer, by any chance? If so, would you represent me in Loyalty Court?

I would neither be sad nor happy if Hamer, Tyler or Kwa were fired or demoted. I want us to have the best possible staff, whether that includes them or not. In a perfect world, the staff would remain in tact, Tyler would produce a top ten offense, Hamer would produce a top ten defense, Geoff would rake up overseas, OA would lock up several players he has ties with and Kwa would be a wonder kid who brings absurdly great intangibles to the table. However, that's unlikey to be the outcome, so regardless of who is here, I just want competency and capability at all positions. I have no idea if we have that now. Obviously something needs to change with the defense -- especially if we're going to continue with the free-wheeling (but mostly effective) offense we put on display this past season. That could be staff, player personell or scheme. But the childish parroting of insults toward one person (two, if you include Ben) reveals a really ugly side to this board.

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Is this another way of saying that we're not really sure what Kwa does?

the juiceman cometh said:

So this conversation where you parroted back the things you were told by an insider on this board to your friend is proof that your views are not being influenced by insiders?

My interpretation of the point @RabidDawgClassic is making is not that the defense has not been an issue. There is plenty of statistical evidence to back up the idea that it has. I think the point is twofold 1) the narrative that the entire problem on defense is very clearly one person's fault is accepted as a fact by many on this board, though 100% of the "evidence" for that narrative comes from one poster who at times is over-the-top and personal in his criticisms that it at least gives off the appearance of being personal; and 2) that posters on this board have so internalized the criticisms from one person that the response has been to parrot these criticisms, including the same over-the-top language and personal insults.

I tend to agree the defense the last two seasons has been a problem, and based on the track record of insiders I am willing to accept that Hamer has responsibilities over defensive game planning and is at least part of the problem, maybe even the entire problem. I also agree he does not have a ton of experience, and would like to see someone with more experience brought in. I would be happy if he were demoted or fired and replaced with a known quantity. But honestly, the way people have been talking about him on here has been kinda crazy, to the point where I genuinely feel bad for this dude. Honestly, the whole thing reminds me of the Steve Bartman stuff. Even if it's all true, and Hamer is some guy who took a job that ended up being too much for him, all this stuff about leggings, it's a bit much. I'm sure there are people out there DMing and emailing him the most horrendous stuff over all this too (and I really hope nobody on this board is doing that). There's always going to be a segment of sports fans who takes this stuff too far, but you also can just not. That's an option too.

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BINGO!!!! The poor performance is clearly identified by watching the games and looking at the hard numbers. It wasn't great or even good.

It's the constant barrage on this singular guy, as if by him not being here last year, this is a 28 win team playing in a regional final.

Lincster27 said:

Is this another way of saying that we're not really sure what Kwa does?

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Honestly, I’m really not.

RabidDawgClassic said:

Thank you, Juiceman. You've nailed my thoughts perfectly. Are you a lawyer, by any chance? If so, would you represent me in Loyalty Court?

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No worries, I'll just go ahead and log all my time on this website as pro bono work

the juiceman cometh said:

No worries, I'll just go ahead and log all my time on this website as pro bono work

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RabidDawgClassic said:

Well… this particular recruit seems to have existing ties to one of our assistants — although it might’ve helped if he’d spelled his name right.

Maybe this is the only recruit out of a hundred who like the guy. Or maybe this board is full of over reactionary posters. Hard to tell, really.

View attachment 41336

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TBH, you continuing to defend Hamer against the evil Loyalty lynch mob seems to be over reactionary.

EyeoftheIllini said:

I just find the narrative that we in the board are being indoctrinated by insiders (except those smart enough to point it out) very bizarre. I have a long-time friend who is an Illinois alum. Illini hoops fan, but not what I’d call super bball knowledgeable. Never played any organized bball (was a soccer/wrestling guy). He doesn’t frequent the board nor follow Illini MBB on social media. During one of the losses in the bad 3-game stretch, he texted me saying something like Brad has to change this D. They’re terrible. I texted back and said, he doesn’t oversee D. His response was, what, who does? I said Hamer. He asked where he had coached before. I said that as far as I knew he hadn’t actually been a coach anywhere else. His response was WTF.

So my friend can tell D sucks and needs to change and can’t believe a first time coach runs the D with no insider indoctrination. But everyone on here who spend a lot more time on Illinois basketball and are much more knowledgeable than he only figured this out cuz insiders emphasize it? Come on, really?

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This

Second place is 1st loser said:

BINGO!!!! The poor performance is clearly identified by watching the games and looking at the hard numbers. It wasn't great or even good.

It's the constant barrage on this singular guy, as if by him not being here last year, this is a 28 win team playing in a regional final.

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Possibly. What if we had a better defensive coordinator that was qualified for such a job?

FrankNitty30 said:

TBH, you continuing to defend Hamer against the evil Loyalty lynch mob seems to be over reactionary.

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He isn't even defending him and has agreed the defense needs to be better and explicitly stated he wouldn't be sad if he got fired.

The issue is the forum is being cluttered by Hamer this, Hamer that every day with idiotic insults and whatever else about his leggings and whatnot.

You just made THREE POSTS IN A ROW about Hamer and accuse someone else of overreacting. I realize you guys think the constant Hamer bagging is hilarious or whatever, but for the rest of us this was getting old last year.

illinifan1987 said:

Time to pull out the broom for this post @Dan

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Quite the opposite! For the most part people are responding civilly and giving well-thought-out opinions. It is the best part of Loyalty when we do that. I find myself agreeing with the same people in this thread that I might be disagreeing with in another thread. If we can do that and remain friendly (sometimes a challenge yes) then we are all better off.

All my opinion of course, but appreciate you all. And apologies when I stray from the above behavior, which I know I do sometimes.

If giving up leggings means the Diary continues, I'll take that trade, though generally I do agree with Indy.

FrankNitty30 said:

Possibly. What if we had a better defensive coordinator that was qualified for such a job?

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The "what if" is where my hang up is. I would LOVE for a quick flip of the switch like that to get us 30 wins. I'm certain Brad would too. I'm sure Josh would too. Everyone is on the same page here. There's none of us who don't want 30+ wins, a Final Four and a National Championship. We're all rowing in the same direction.

If Hamer is the reason for the gap between our results(22 wins and round of 32) to our goals(30+ wins and a Final Four) and a new DC bridges that gap...why hasn't the move been made? What are we(the fans) missing because the feeling by some on this board versus the feelings of the staff are universes apart. Hamer is literally out on the recruiting trail right now.

FrankNitty30 said:

Possibly. What if we had a better defensive coordinator that was qualified for such a job?

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And what if a more experienced, better AC costs $500k more than Hamer, which means the boosters are asked to donate to the Athletic Dept to make that hire instead of donating to the NIL pool, and as a result we get outbid for Riley last offseason? I'm sure it's not 1:1 but there has to be some connection between coaching staff and NIL budgets since booster donations are a component of both, so with Hamer being paid mich less than a more experienced AC I have to imagine that factors in somewhat.

We have $600k? from Tim Anderson slot. Lets use it!

NarrowJ said:

He isn't even defending him and has agreed the defense needs to be better and explicitly stated he wouldn't be sad if he got fired.

The issue is the forum is being cluttered by Hamer this, Hamer that every day with idiotic insults and whatever else about his leggings and whatnot.

You just made THREE POSTS IN A ROW about Hamer and accuse someone else of overreacting. I realize you guys think the constant Hamer bagging is hilarious or whatever, but for the rest of us this was getting old last year.

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Yeah, I don’t stay on the board all day. So while I am on, I respond to things. I am efficient that way.

the juiceman cometh said:

And what if a more experienced, better AC costs $500k more than Hamer, which means the boosters are asked to donate to the Athletic Dept to make that hire instead of donating to the NIL pool, and as a result we get outbid for Riley last offseason? I'm sure it's not 1:1 but there has to be some connection between coaching staff and NIL budgets since booster donations are a component of both, so with Hamer being paid mich less than a more experienced AC I have to imagine that factors in somewhat.

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Unfortunately, it didn’t matter who we had on our team if we can’t defend anyone.

Agreed