Coaching Carousel

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#626      

sacraig

sacraig
The desert
sacraig
JW said:
The reason we are not an elite program is not because OA and Chin are leaving (if the rumors are true). The reason we are not an elite program is because we have not performed like an elite program. One trip to the championship game, one Final Four since 1989, three tournament appearances in the last ten years. Not exactly rare air.

Under Underwood we are going in the right direction. I think the suggestion that we are taking steps back demonstrates a misunderstanding of what is happening. If our assistant coaches get offers at one of the top programs in NCAA history, or our players leave for the NBA, that is the logical and foreseeable consequence of our improvement.
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Wholeheartedly agree. Unsuccessful programs don't have coaches poached by programs like Kentucky. It's the reality that we live in that, until we (hypothetically) get closer to their level as a program, then we are going to lose some assistants along the way who get poached. If we don't, we are either very lucky or not performing very well.

It really just sucks that it is potentially two at once and so early in the process.
 
#627      

JW

JW
Vancouver
JW
sacraig said:
Are potential facts kind of like alternative facts?
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Well said my friend.

According to this author, these events signal the potential fact of something in the future, apparently.
 
#629      

Seagee

Seagee
Seagee
JW said:
Yeah, I guess I give the student writing it a little grace because he is a student.

But consider these two problematic paragraphs:

However, the possibility of assistants Orlando Antigua and, especially, Ron “Chin” Coleman leaving for other assistant jobs signals the potential fact that Illinois will never be considered one of the nation’s most elite programs.

If Antigua and Coleman were leaving for head coaching jobs, so be it. But with Calipari having the chance to lure them away for assistant gigs after his worst season in Lexington, Illinois is taking two steps back after a step forward. The only way Illinois can fix this problem is to consistently win under Underwood for a decade.
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He also seems to not understand that Antigua himself is the one who recruited many of those KY players he references.
 
#631      

JW

JW
Vancouver
JW
sacraig said:
Wholeheartedly agree. Unsuccessful programs don't have coaches poached by programs like Kentucky. It's the reality that we live in that, until we (hypothetically) get closer to their level as a program, then we are going to lose some assistants along the way who get poached. If we don't, we are either very lucky or not performing very well.

It really just sucks that it is potentially two at once and so early in the process.
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I have faith in Brad Underwood, and as much as I love Chin and OA, and want them to stay, I do think their leaving is somewhat overblown.

Brad Underwood is the reason our program has improved. Brad Underwood is the reason we are landing better recruits.

No offense to OA and Chin, but they may find that things are not so rosy in Lexington. Very different expectations from Urbana-Champaign. Overachieving in terms of landing recruits and finding diamonds in the rough may not translate to success at Kentucky.
 
#634      

Ghost77

Ghost77
Ghost77
JW said:
I have faith in Brad Underwood, and as much as I love Chin and OA, and want them to stay, I do think their leaving is somewhat overblown.

Brad Underwood is the reason our program has improved. Brad Underwood is the reason we are landing better recruits.

No offense to OA and Chin, but they may find that things are not so rosy in Lexington. Very different expectations from Urbana-Champaign. Overachieving in terms of landing recruits and finding diamonds in the rough may not translate to success at Kentucky.
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I don't think Kofi, Feliz, Belo, and Melendez to name a few committed here because of BU....
 
#635      

sacraig

sacraig
The desert
sacraig
JW said:
I have faith in Brad Underwood, and as much as I love Chin and OA, and want them to stay, I do think their leaving is somewhat overblown.

Brad Underwood is the reason our program has improved. Brad Underwood is the reason we are landing better recruits.

No offense to OA and Chin, but they may find that things are not so rosy in Lexington. Very different expectations from Urbana-Champaign. Overachieving in terms of landing recruits and finding diamonds in the rough may not translate to success at Kentucky.
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I tend to agree for the most part. Ultimately, BU runs the program, not OA or CC, so on some level you have to have some faith that the guy at the top still has a plan and the ability to keep elevating the program or we are probably doomed anyway. But it's also clear that OA and CC are/were big parts of our success, so the path to where we all want to be likely gets a little bumpier. It obviously depends on who we are able to hire in their place(s), of course. I don't think OA is some assistant coaching deity who cannot be replaced, but I do think he exists in a rarefied space where he is very difficult to replace.

I also worry about this crop of recruits.
 
#637      

IndyILL

I
IndyILL
JW said:
I have faith in Brad Underwood, and as much as I love Chin and OA, and want them to stay, I do think their leaving is somewhat overblown.

Brad Underwood is the reason our program has improved. Brad Underwood is the reason we are landing better recruits.

No offense to OA and Chin, but they may find that things are not so rosy in Lexington. Very different expectations from Urbana-Champaign. Overachieving in terms of landing recruits and finding diamonds in the rough may not translate to success at Kentucky.
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I like your thinking here...

So OA and Chin definitely have the recruiting chops and player development skills; but it seems to me that the team as a whole really started to take off & started to win consistently when Gentry got involved. Could the following have been the recipe for our success?

BU = culture building & vision (team focus) & gives something to recruit to.

AO, Chin, Fletch = recruiting & player development (individual focus)

Gentry = offense & defense scheme (team focus) that meshes individual strengths.
 
#638      

JFGsCoffeeMug

JFGsCoffeeMug
BU:1 Trash cans:0
Chicago
JFGsCoffeeMug
sacraig said:
Wholeheartedly agree. Unsuccessful programs don't have coaches poached by programs like Kentucky. It's the reality that we live in that, until we (hypothetically) get closer to their level as a program, then we are going to lose some assistants along the way who get poached. If we don't, we are either very lucky or not performing very well.

It really just sucks that it is potentially two at once and so early in the process.
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Yep. If you're already elite, it seems easier to stay elite. Your program can attract quality candidates on its own. But if you're not already elite, getting there is difficult. You could try to get there by banking on keeping an excellent coaching staff intact for a significant period of time, but that's a shaky proposition. Assistants leave for head coaching positions or they get poached by programs higher up in the pecking order. So where does that leave us? You probably have to build from your AD and HC as the core. The assistant coaches and rosters can change, but if your AD and HC work well together and are capable of elevating the program, I think it could happen that way.

If OA and Chin are really on their way out, we're about to find out how key BU has been to our recent success. If BU can keep this rolling with two new assistant coaches, then we are in a good place. But if we start to lose significant momentum, then we can probably conclude that we caught lightning in a bottle for a few seasons, but we weren't really set up to sustain our current success.

Additionally, if Kofi does come back for another season and we make a deeper run in the tourney without OA and Chin, I think that could be a significant moment for the program. BU demonstrating that he can be successful and maintain our current trajectory with a new supporting cast is going to help quiet the jitters recruits and fans might have about our program being relevant again.

tl;dr:

i'm out well done GIF by Captain Obvious
 
#640      

BRucks

BRucks
BRucks
JW said:
I have faith in Brad Underwood, and as much as I love Chin and OA, and want them to stay, I do think their leaving is somewhat overblown.

Brad Underwood is the reason our program has improved. Brad Underwood is the reason we are landing better recruits.

No offense to OA and Chin, but they may find that things are not so rosy in Lexington. Very different expectations from Urbana-Champaign. Overachieving in terms of landing recruits and finding diamonds in the rough may not translate to success at Kentucky.
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Brad was able to land these two assistants when the program was in the dumper. No reason to think he can't bring in comparable talent now that we have gained a measure of success and will soon have improved facilities.
 
#641      

JW

JW
Vancouver
JW
Ghost77 said:
I don't think Kofi, Feliz, Belo, and Melendez to name a few committed here because of BU....
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I think you are giving OA far too much credit, and BU far too little credit.

It is not an "either/or" situation.

Many factors play into a recruit's decision, and it is certainly a combination of the assistant coach recruiter and the head coach.

I don't think Brad Underwood is sitting in Champaign, twiddling his thumbs while OA and Chin were turning our program around.

None of this is a knock on OA or Chin, or a rationalization to alleviate the pain of them leaving.

And if you are right (I don't think you are), and OA is solely responsible for Feliz, Belo, Melendez and Kofi, then OA should not be an assistant coach at Illinois. With that kind of recruiting I'm surprised he stuck around this long. For the accolades being credited to OA he should be taking Roy Williams' place at UNC...
 
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#642      

JW

JW
Vancouver
JW
I11ini82 said:
Of course there are other reasons those kids chose Illinois.

But OA was far and away the main reason those kids did.
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I'm not buying what you are selling. But again, if you are right, and your girlfriend goes from this to that, then she's gonna dump ya.

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#643      

Ghost77

Ghost77
Ghost77
JW said:
I think you are giving OA far too much credit, and BU far too little credit.

It is not an "either/or" situation.

Many factors play into a recruit's decision, and it is certainly a combination of the assistant coach recruiter and the head coach.

I don't think Brad Underwood is sitting in Champaign, twiddling his thumbs while OA and Chin were turning our program around.

None of this is a knock on OA or Chin, or a rationalization to alleviate the pain of them leaving.

And if you are right (I don't think you are), and OA is solely responsible for Feliz, Belo, Melendez and Kofi, then OA should not be an assistant coach at Illinois. With that kind of recruiting I'm surprised he stuck around this long. For the accolades being credited to OA he should be taking Roy Williams' place at UNC...
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Totally agree that there are many factors that drive a recruit's decision, but relationships are huge, and I believe OA was the deciding factor for these players. Now even though those were all good players for us (obviously will have to wait and see with Melendez) I wouldn't expect OA to be perfect in his recruiting, and I'm assuming this and possibly the fact that he just may not be cut out to be a head coach is why he failed at USF.
 
#644      

BBIQ

B
Texas
BBIQ
sacraig said:
I mean this with no disrespect, but I do not value the opinion of someone who has only been alive and old enough to follow Illinois basketball during it's worst stretch in recent memory. The author didn't experience any of the extended good times. The program's ceiling is clearly higher than where we are now.
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That line about winning for a decade to keep assistants or whatever it said was so bad IMO. I don't want to read it again but figured I'd share it with the board.
 
#645      

pvaughn8

P
pvaughn8
sacraig said:
Wholeheartedly agree. Unsuccessful programs don't have coaches poached by programs like Kentucky. It's the reality that we live in that, until we (hypothetically) get closer to their level as a program, then we are going to lose some assistants along the way who get poached. If we don't, we are either very lucky or not performing very well.

It really just sucks that it is potentially two at once and so early in the process.
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Kind of feels like losing in the second round as a One seed.
 
#646      

Epsilon

Epsilon
M tipping over
Pdx
Epsilon
Gottfried apparently doesn’t learn from his mistakes after the NC State debacle. Will probably be gone from CSUN I am guessing.

www.google.com

CSUN puts Gottfried on leave amid investigation

Cal State Northridge has put Mark Gottfried and his staff on leave while it conducts an investigation into alleged rules violations.
www.google.com www.google.com
 
#649      

CarsonHowe_9

CarsonHowe_9
CarsonHowe_9
Maybe he didn’t leave because kentucky is the better program but the relationship he had with Cal is very strong. He was with him at memphis and then moved with him.
 
#650      

EliteIllini

E
EliteIllini
Man, the way some of you guys talk about OA and Chin, I am surprised the rest of these college basketball programs survived not having them. Guess what? Losing assistants is part of the business when you have a thriving program. It hurts, but it's not the end of the world.

Our program was in shambles 4 years ago. OA played a key role in getting us back, but I like to believe that BU played a bigger role. We will be fine. Let's appreciate that we went punch for punch with a blue blood over an assistant. Four years ago, OA would have been gone weeks ago on the first plane to Lexington.
 
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