College Hoops Coaching Carousel

Status
Not open for further replies.
#452      

altgeld88

Arlington, Virginia
Georgetown is a very rich school with a very rich alumni base that is in a very vulnerable position with the centerpiece program of their athletic department and Cooley is a total grand slam for them. Money very well spent considering the alternative IMO.
The underperformance in the program has been staggering. A lot of untapped potential if Cooley can unlock it.
 
#453      

sbillini

st petersburg, fl


I don't follow SJ's closely. Are the allegations the school's making real? or are they trying to scrape together the cash so they can afford Pitino? If the latter, then not sure I'd want to go to into a financially tricky situation if i'm Pitino.
 
#454      
The underperformance in the program has been staggering. A lot of untapped potential if Cooley can unlock it.
Maybe, but Allen Iverson was almost 30 years ago. None of the kids Cooley will want were around to see him. Patrick was almost 40 years ago. Their last great season was around the time current recruits were being born. They just don't really know that Georgetown was a thing.

That said, a good coach can sell it. There is plenty of talent in the area. To me the question is, can Cooley make Georgetown significantly better than he made Providence? From Georgetown's perspective, they will absolutely take Providence's level of success. From a national perspective, I don't think a new power has been born.
 
#455      

altgeld88

Arlington, Virginia
Maybe, but Allen Iverson was almost 30 years ago. None of the kids Cooley will want were around to see him. Patrick was almost 40 years ago. Their last great season was around the time current recruits were being born. They just don't really know that Georgetown was a thing.

That said, a good coach can sell it. There is plenty of talent in the area. To me the question is, can Cooley make Georgetown significantly better than he made Providence? From Georgetown's perspective, they will absolutely take Providence's level of success. From a national perspective, I don't think a new power has been born.
JT III had competitive teams for a while. IMO if Cooley can keep DC talent in town and tap into Baltimore and the NE he can do something here.
 
#456      

ChiefGritty

Chicago, IL
Maybe, but Allen Iverson was almost 30 years ago. None of the kids Cooley will want were around to see him. Patrick was almost 40 years ago. Their last great season was around the time current recruits were being born. They just don't really know that Georgetown was a thing.

That said, a good coach can sell it. There is plenty of talent in the area. To me the question is, can Cooley make Georgetown significantly better than he made Providence? From Georgetown's perspective, they will absolutely take Providence's level of success. From a national perspective, I don't think a new power has been born.
The thing about kids is that they don't really know anything is a thing, y'know?

Anyway, we're obviously in the NIL space now, and that structures all of this. Rich urban schools that don't have FBS football teams are pretty well-positioned in that environment, and for Georgetown specifically if you can get their unique blend of the wealth and power that that institution and its campus and its alumni base connotes to hook up with the legacy of who John Thompson was and what he and his program stood for and meant to the African-American community, big big things are possible. It's a sell others schools don't have that could really resonate with some kids.

Possible, but not certain. The disadvantage of a program like that is playing in a mostly-empty off campus NBA arena and the bar to getting anyone to care being pretty high.

But it's a unique opportunity, it's nothing like a Big Ten school in either its positives or its negatives.
 
#457      
McDermott is nearing 60, did the Iowa State thing which went really poorly, I think at this point, he's probably content to ride it out. Creighton is in a power conference, so I don't think they're necessarily capped.
 
#458      
Maybe, but Allen Iverson was almost 30 years ago. None of the kids Cooley will want were around to see him. Patrick was almost 40 years ago. Their last great season was around the time current recruits were being born. They just don't really know that Georgetown was a thing...
I think this is why it would have been SO important to at least beat Loyola in 2021 and make it to the Second Weekend but also why it was essential that we at least spent a good amount of time in the national spotlight. Upsets happen (a #1 seed has lost to an 8/9 in the Second Round in five of the last six NCAA Tournaments, including the last three in a row), but I think it REALLY improved the image of our program to win the BTT in front of the largest TV audience of the entire college basketball regular season and immediately after that be called as a #1 seed on Selection Sunday in front of millions. Having Ayo then get drafted to the NBA (Bulls, especially!) was icing on the cake, and Kofi's prominence just continued the trend of us being "nationally relevant." It gives us a cushion for a "rebuilding year" this year after losing all five starters, IMO, and it gives us a grace period to make a Sweet Sixteen or more in the next couple seasons before we are no longer thought of as a "basketball school" or whatever ... I mean at the end of the day, you can't "disappoint" in March if you aren't already really good. :ROFLMAO: Circa 2018 when we were all talking about all of the great teams we've had ... well, no high schooler really felt that vibe. It was huge to at least get back to being seen as a top seed team.

Georgetown's last Final Four (and Elite Eight/Sweet Sixteen) was only two seasons after ours, in 2007. Somewhat similarly to us, before 2021 their last NCAA Tournament appearance was back in 2015 and before that 2012 (compared to our 2013 and 2011). They had some really high seeds in 2012 and 2013, but honestly that might as well have been 2005 now. The difference between us and Georgetown is we ponied up the big bucks and got Underwood to stop the bleeding, and our 2021 return to the NCAA Tournament was as a #1 seed who easily would have made it the previous year, while theirs was as one of the very last teams in the field (#12 seed). I'm sure they feel as similarly desperate as we did after Groce's last season.
 
#459      
The thing about kids is that they don't really know anything is a thing, y'know?

Anyway, we're obviously in the NIL space now, and that structures all of this. Rich urban schools that don't have FBS football teams are pretty well-positioned in that environment, and for Georgetown specifically if you can get their unique blend of the wealth and power that that institution and its campus and its alumni base connotes to hook up with the legacy of who John Thompson was and what he and his program stood for and meant to the African-American community, big big things are possible. It's a sell others schools don't have that could really resonate with some kids.

Possible, but not certain. The disadvantage of a program like that is playing in a mostly-empty off campus NBA arena and the bar to getting anyone to care being pretty high.

But it's a unique opportunity, it's nothing like a Big Ten school in either its positives or its negatives.
Mostly agree. I am really surprised Georgetown has not built a smaller arena "with character" in a better location, and then they could have like one big game per year in the NBA venue as more of an event (not too dissimilar from our United Center tradition).
 
#460      
So this means we've got a shot at Bryce Hopkins? ;) :ROFLMAO:

BTW, regarding Georgetown, I walk across that campus every Monday evening during spring semester. As I'm walking through the crosswalk directly across from the 140,000 square foot John Thompson Jr Intercollegiate Athletic Center, this is what I see through the entry doors. A bit of a cult of personality goin' on there. I wish Cooley well if he takes that job.

View attachment 24294
Is that Craig Esherick?🤔😎
 
#463      
I can understand why some would want a bigger fish. But you can't argue with the job he is doing.
Yeah, it's not always about making a splash hire that strokes your ego (just ask us about Lovie ... we forget how much that dominated the sports news cycle for a bit, and we IMMEDIATELY got our first sellout in years as soon as we hosted UNC), and Terry seems like a great coach. You could argue you're taking just as much of a risk letting him slip away to another gig if he's the next big thing that was discovered a bit "early" and practically for free!
 
#464      

ChiefGritty

Chicago, IL
Yeah, hindsight is 20/20, but I always found our obsession with "getting someone here for the long haul" really weird and depressing. I personally don't view Self leaving us for his dream job as any more of an indication that we were a "stepping stone job" than Roy leaving KU for UNC would signify that Kansas is a "stepping stone job." JMO and all, but I think it's extremely rare for a coach to either (A) be dead-set on retiring at Illinois the second he walks in the door or (B) dead-set on using us as a springboard to a so-called "better job." The vast majority will fall in the middle, IMO, realizing it COULD be a destination or it COULD be a "stepping stone" depending on a ton of factors. In other words, a very good job inherently but not a forever job inherently (if the latter even exists).

Now we are just totally into my personal opinion of jobs here, but I don't think there are that many tiers.
(1) Truly Elite
(2) Very Good/The "Next Level Down" Jobs
(3) The Vast Majority
(4) Disadvantaged Jobs

Truly Elite: Kentucky, North Carolina and Kansas
In an even a way that Duke and UCLA have not, these schools have proven to have unrivaled success under multiple coaches, incredible facilities, intense fan support/donors willing to step up and a nationwide spotlight that never seems to fade even when they're bad. I think these are probably the only schools that could reasonably look at a head coach at an Arizona, a Michigan, a UConn, etc. and think they have a good shot of swiping their coaches from them.

Very Good/The "Next Level Down" Jobs
This covers a very wide range of programs that I would roughly put in the following sub-categories:
(A) Historically elite programs that aren't quite in Tier 1 to programs (e.g., Indiana or UCLA). For example, UCLA has an insanely impressive history, but a coach who views himself as earning "Blue Blood" opportunities might get annoyed at the total lack of fan support compared to "pier programs" Kentucky/Kansas or the relative lack of national spotlight UCLA receives on the West Coast vs. North Carolina/Duke on the East Coast. On the flipside, a coach might get shivers looking up at Indiana's five NC banners in their nostalgic gym but be spooked off by their fans' unrealistic expectations and generally delusional attitudes - why not go have just as much of a chance at winning big at Ohio State with far less pressure to deliver immediately from fans?
(B) Somewhat lacking in "built-in advantages" but have a great history of winning (e.g., Arkansas or Kansas State). On one hand, this type of program has proven you can win big there, and they mostly have great fan support. On the other, the right coach can win anywhere, and is past success necessarily indicative of future success? Using those two as an example, you have fans that expect quite a lot but the instate talent you have access to is pretty weak.
(C) Great-but-not-elite history of winning but have some REALLY great "built-in advantages" (e.g., Illinois or Maryland). The fact these schools don't have even more historical success is arguably IN SPITE of how good the job is, not because it's lacking. Stocked with instate talent (where even getting your third and fourth choices is a huge win), proof of success under multiple coaches in recent history, a large/passionate fan base that will still give you more patience than the Indianas of the world and facilities as good as almost anywhere else.
(D) Schools who lack the historic success of others in this Tier but have a potentially VERY bright future (e.g., Texas or Florida). Whether it's bad luck or just a historical lack of resources channeled to hoops, these schools have way more potential than they've ever realized - even more than the (C) group above. I know some will take issue with Florida on here, but they really only ever carried any sort of "elite" run while one player was there. They've been a great program (as has Texas, to a lesser extent), but they have the resources and built-in advantages to be as elite as anyone in the country over the next several decades. Sometimes this type of job might be the biggest no-brainer on this list, as you'd have the resources necessary to outperform anyone in the country, but you would be doing it for a much more appreciative fan base.

The Vast Majority
This literally covers all of the "Power Five" jobs from Iowa to Auburn to Oregon to Creighton. These are fine jobs, and you can win games there if you're the "right guy." However, each is lacking something that could push it up a Tier.

Disadvantaged Jobs
This is a small list of schools where you could reasonably say it's "hard to win here." Northwestern immediately comes to mind - strict academic standards, a small/relatively apathetic alumni base, VERY few fans outside of that alumni base and a complete lack of historic success. Others could be Georgia Tech or Boston College.
I think this is why it would have been SO important to at least beat Loyola in 2021 and make it to the Second Weekend but also why it was essential that we at least spent a good amount of time in the national spotlight. Upsets happen (a #1 seed has lost to an 8/9 in the Second Round in five of the last six NCAA Tournaments, including the last three in a row), but I think it REALLY improved the image of our program to win the BTT in front of the largest TV audience of the entire college basketball regular season and immediately after that be called as a #1 seed on Selection Sunday in front of millions. Having Ayo then get drafted to the NBA (Bulls, especially!) was icing on the cake, and Kofi's prominence just continued the trend of us being "nationally relevant." It gives us a cushion for a "rebuilding year" this year after losing all five starters, IMO, and it gives us a grace period to make a Sweet Sixteen or more in the next couple seasons before we are no longer thought of as a "basketball school" or whatever ... I mean at the end of the day, you can't "disappoint" in March if you aren't already really good. :ROFLMAO: Circa 2018 when we were all talking about all of the great teams we've had ... well, no high schooler really felt that vibe. It was huge to at least get back to being seen as a top seed team.

Georgetown's last Final Four (and Elite Eight/Sweet Sixteen) was only two seasons after ours, in 2007. Somewhat similarly to us, before 2021 their last NCAA Tournament appearance was back in 2015 and before that 2012 (compared to our 2013 and 2011). They had some really high seeds in 2012 and 2013, but honestly that might as well have been 2005 now. The difference between us and Georgetown is we ponied up the big bucks and got Underwood to stop the bleeding, and our 2021 return to the NCAA Tournament was as a #1 seed who easily would have made it the previous year, while theirs was as one of the very last teams in the field (#12 seed). I'm sure they feel as similarly desperate as we did after Groce's last season.
As a fellow wall of text producer I always really enjoy and appreciate your thoughts @Fighter of the Nightman except for your very stupid views on having us cosplay as the Bears against Northwestern ;)

I guess where I would push back on the spirit of these considered and factually accurate posts is that I think in the new reality of college basketball where everyone is a transfer, conferences are dead, football rules the roost and most of the best talent is training for the draft if they're even in college at all is that there just isn't going to be a stability and consistency of hierarchy like there was from let's say 1990-2020.

The whole notion of blue bloods and a tier status of programs is based on being able to sustain a roster and a playing style and a HS recruiting network year-over-year and having a coach who really commits and emphasizes those things.

There isn't anything in the sport that looks anything like Coach K's Duke or Jim Boeheim's Syracuse or Bo Ryan's Wisconsin anymore, that's just no longer a thing, and so being able to make apples-to-apples comparisons across those program establishments isn't a thing either.

There's always a ton of randomness to the tournament, but you look at the 16 coaches left and the word that springs to my mind is "survivors". Rick Barnes, Kelvin Sampson, Greg McDermott, Mick Cronin, Jim Larranaga, Brian Dutcher and Jerome Tang both getting their first chance at a head job quite late in life after being career assistants for coaches that didn't get a ton of respect, these are all guys who no "blue blood" was jumping at the chance to hire at different stages of their career but just outlasted the notion that you had to be someone like Tom Izzo to be "worthy".

To me the future is one where you point the NIL hose as strongly and accurately as you can, keep getting players, keep grinding, and just survive the inevitable roller coaster. BU is a survivor, I think.
 
#465      
Rothstein just tweeted that Providence has their eyes on Kim English. I hope George Mason doesn’t have their eyes on Chester.
 
#466      
Rothstein just tweeted that Providence has their eyes on Kim English. I hope George Mason doesn’t have their eyes on Chester.
Why not?

Every loss presents a new opportunity, and if you establish your program as a springboard to bigger and better things, you can more easily land top assistants.

Not to mention, if people actually want Chester to be the Illini head coach some day, he's going to have to go out and prove he's capable of it.
 
Last edited:
#468      
... I think in the new reality of college basketball where everyone is a transfer, conferences are dead, football rules the roost and most of the best talent is training for the draft if they're even in college at all is that there just isn't going to be a stability and consistency of hierarchy like there was from let's say 1990-2020... There's always a ton of randomness to the tournament...

Not sure if Conferences are fully dead. You raise valid points about “everyone is a transfer”... but there are some Conference trend lines.

And one of these seems clear. The SEC – long a football behemoth – has fully become a roundball powerhouse. They have one-fourth of the remaining teams in the Dance: Alabama. Arkansas. Tennessee. Texas (in 2024).

Big Ten and Big 12 have – one team each left.

Big East clocks in with a solid three teams still in the Dance: Creighton. Xavier. UConn.

So, nearly a full half of the remaining field come from two Conferences. One of those being a legacy power roundball Conference. And the other on a solid trend up.

And roughly, by National Regions... the remaining teams.
(2) East
(4) Midwest
(2) Far West
(8) SOUTH

So, as much of the Nation has been migrating South in recent years... so seems much of the success on the court.

Sure, this is just one snapshot in time. But this does seem to reflect a current trend line of the Game. And top recruits and guys looking to move always like to migrate to programs that look currently sexy to them if they can.
 
#470      
If Providence were smart, they'd have their eyes on Shrewsberry
One thing I forgot to touch on in my "job tiers" post that I wonder about here is ... just how valuable is it to be anywhere (or almost anywhere) in the Big Ten or SEC going forward? As Gritty has pointed out, there might be a bit of an exception for the urban-based, non-football schools in the Big East, as I guess they can run a tighter budget without football expenses, have fairly well-off alumni bases and channel a disproportionate amount of AD resources into basketball. However, is PSU really as bad of a spot as we think it is? As Gritty also pointed out, the historic success of a program arguably plays less of a role in what the "good jobs" are with every passing year (would you rather be a Utah or Auburn in today's climate?), and I wonder if PSU's ceiling is not a lot higher than people might think. If I'm the PSU AD, I throw a TON of money at Shrewsberry and convince him that Penn State is more of a sleeping giant (or at least a still-kind-of-groggy-after-waking-up, average-height person, lol) and get him to stay. It wouldn't surprised me if he moved on and I might be influenced by my optimistic views regarding the ceiling of Illini Football and projecting it onto basketball comparisons, but ... it also wouldn't shock me one bit if he stays.
 
#471      

ChiefGritty

Chicago, IL
And one of these seems clear. The SEC – long a football behemoth – has fully become a roundball powerhouse. They have one-fourth of the remaining teams in the Dance: Alabama. Arkansas. Tennessee. Texas (in 2024).

Big Ten and Big 12 have – one team each left.
If we want to get Future Mode with it, technically the SEC has four (Bama, Arkansas, Tennessee, Texas), the Big Ten has two (MSU, UCLA), and the Big 12 has two (K-State, Houston)

What I mean about conferences being dead is that I don't think conferences being culturally or tactically distinct from one another is going to be a meaningful part of college basketball going forward, whereas it really was for many years. Big Ten basketball was different from ACC basketball which was different from Big East basketball. That's gone. It's all a hodgepodge now.

Conference strength may very well still matter in various ways, but I think it's too early to know exactly how that will shake out. I do think you're correct that the SEC will likely be a stronger league than it has been in the past.
 
#472      

altgeld88

Arlington, Virginia
Mostly agree. I am really surprised Georgetown has not built a smaller arena "with character" in a better location, and then they could have like one big game per year in the NBA venue as more of an event (not too dissimilar from our United Center tradition).
They have a beautiful old arena where the men played until they moved out to the old Capital Centre on the Beltway in the burbs in ~ 1980.

The women play here but it's tiny (2500 capacity)


I've been to Hoyas games long ago in the Verizon Center. Your basic soulless NBA/NHL arena.
 
#473      
Why not?

Every loss presents a new opportunity, and if you establish your program as a springboard to bigger and better things, you can more easily land top assistants.

Not to mention, if people actually want Chester to be the Illini head coach some day, he's going to have to go out and prove he's capable of it.
I would prefer not to lose Chester or TA in what is going to be a crucial offseason.
 
#474      

IlliniwekKDR

Colorado Springs, CO
I would prefer not to lose Chester or TA in what is going to be a crucial offseason.
We lost all 3 coaches in a crucial off-season and found 3 new good ones to fill their shoes. Don't get me wrong, I'll take Chester for as long as he will be here, but all indications are that he deserves a HC job and him getting there (and succeeding upon arrival) reflects well on Brad and our program. That draws more good coaches and players to Champaign.
 
#475      
We lost all 3 coaches in a crucial off-season and found 3 new good ones to fill their shoes. Don't get me wrong, I'll take Chester for as long as he will be here, but all indications are that he deserves a HC job and him getting there (and succeeding upon arrival) reflects well on Brad and our program. That draws more good coaches and players to Champaign.
can't bank on hitting a home run finding assistant coach replacements again.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.