College Hoops Coaching Carousel

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#51      

Illini in Italy

Illini in Italy
Illini in Italy
WyattEarp said:
Well in essence, I don’t disagree with you.
The Illini fan “inferiority” thing is real. Sometimes it manifests as more of a full “persecution complex”…”of course that happened we’re Illinois…blah blah…
(As you all know. lol)

I think what it comes down to is: for the 10th-11th winningest D1 Basketball program…we arguably do not have the post season success commensurate with that stature. We are not alone… other schools have similar historical resumes. Some are the opposite; and are weighted
disproportionately the other way.

And fair or not…the world sees and remembers TOURNAMENT success. We cling to ‘89 and ‘05 partially because we are rabid fans…but partially because it’s what we have. We don’t have that much post season success as a program. That’s just the way it is. (That doesn’t mean it should stay that way!)

We have a rich collective history…and we’re proud of it. But the world at large just doesn’t generally know or care. That’s a tough thing to hear as a rabid Illini fan…but it’s true.

Don’t believe me? Do you consider Utah a basketball juggernaut? Their win total is
VERY comparable to us? Were you even aware that was the case?

Do you think we are superior to Utah?
I do, sure but I am a biased Illini fan.
How do Utah fans view themselves?
If they thought of themselves as equals…they would have a valid argument based on actual data. Most people on the street would probably say Illinois has the better program of the two. But if your criteria is total program wins…Utah has a claim.

But since we’re talking about Utah….
Utah has a better all-time win total than Nova and Michigan State? But the last
two have been relatively consistent fixtures in March.

Ask 5 people on the street…of those 3, who has a better basketball program and see what they tell you…

People have short memories and they remember a few consecutive, flashy teams from the tournament…and that becomes the collective perception of the world.

And we Illini fans pick up on that collective perception of the casual fan more than we want to admit. And it pisses us off. Lol
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A well put together treatise, sir. In my multi-decade presence on Loyalty (in one form or another), I've lamented our over-inflated sense of self worth many times, most recently here:

https://www.illinoisloyalty.com/post/college-hoops-coaching-carousel.31175/post-1915327

We've had many, many, many years of disappointment, highlighted by bursts of brilliance. We love the O&B, and live and die with their success or lack thereof. But we are not, regrettably, actually as good and historic as many here believe.
 
#52      

21ChampaignSt

21ChampaignSt
21ChampaignSt
Illini in Italy said:
A well put together treatise, sir. In my multi-decade presence on Loyalty (in one form or another), I've lamented our over-inflated sense of self worth many times, most recently here:

https://www.illinoisloyalty.com/post/college-hoops-coaching-carousel.31175/post-1915327

We've had many, many, many years of disappointment, highlighted by bursts of brilliance. We love the O&B, and live and die with their success or lack thereof. But we are not, regrettably, actually as good and historic as many here believe.
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I'll continue to challenge you on this my Italian Illini brother. Are we not a top 15-20 team? I think it would take some mental gymnastics to say we aren't. There are some fans who expect top 10 results every year but most of the fans who you probably deem unrealistic would just like us to finish as a top 15-20 on a semi regular basis.
 
#53      

Fighter of the Nightman

Fighter of the Nightman
Chicago, IL
Fighter of the Nightman
WyattEarp said:
Well in essence, I don’t disagree with you.
The Illini fan “inferiority” thing is real. Sometimes it manifests as more of a full “persecution complex”…”of course that happened we’re Illinois…blah blah…
(As you all know. lol)

I think what it comes down to is: for the 10th-11th winningest D1 Basketball program…we arguably do not have the post season success commensurate with that stature. We are not alone… other schools have similar historical resumes. Some are the opposite; and are weighted
disproportionately the other way.

And fair or not…the world sees and remembers TOURNAMENT success. We cling to ‘89 and ‘05 partially because we are rabid fans…but partially because it’s what we have. We don’t have that much post season success as a program. That’s just the way it is. (That doesn’t mean it should stay that way!)

We have a rich collective history…and we’re proud of it. But the world at large just doesn’t generally know or care. That’s a tough thing to hear as a rabid Illini fan…but it’s true.

Don’t believe me? Do you consider Utah a basketball juggernaut? Their win total is
VERY comparable to us? Were you even aware that was the case?

Do you think we are superior to Utah?
I do, sure but I am a biased Illini fan.
How do Utah fans view themselves?
If they thought of themselves as equals…they would have a valid argument based on actual data. Most people on the street would probably say Illinois has the better program of the two. But if your criteria is total program wins…Utah has a claim.

But since we’re talking about Utah….
Utah has a better all-time win total than Nova and Michigan State? But the last
two have been relatively consistent fixtures in March.

Ask 5 people on the street…of those 3, who has a better basketball program and see what they tell you…

People have short memories and they remember a few consecutive, flashy teams from the tournament…and that becomes the collective perception of the world.

And we Illini fans pick up on that collective perception of the casual fan more than we want to admit. And it pisses us off. Lol
Click to expand...
I do want to start off by saying that I INDEED consider Utah a very good program historically and have a ton of respect for them, but that is because I am a bit of college basketball history nerd! ;) No, I 100% agree with you - we have put together an all-time "regular season resume" that is knocking on the door of the top10, and we have put together a "March Madness" resume that is closer to top 30. What you get in the end is us pretty fairly being ranked anywhere from the extremely favorable 15 to closer to 25 all-time. I think "top 20 program all-time" is generous but fair ... despite our disappointments, we do still have 5 Final Fours!

My point was more that there are other very good programs that have their own "stains" on their all-time resumes in different ways that don't seem to have as "woe is me" fans as we do. Yes, Maryland won a title in 2002 and that is amazing, but they have only been to TWO Final Fours ever! And they were both in a 2-year span!! Yet their fans act like they're elite as hell, lol. I just wish Illini fans actually had a bit MORE homerism, because nobody is ever going to sing your praises anymore than you would about yourself. It's disheartening to see Illini fans not at least appreciate what we have accomplished and, even more importantly, acknowledge that if you label us as historic underachievers (which is TOTALLY fair!), you must necessarily acknowledge our extremely high ceiling. If Iowa had our all-time stats, people would consider them an overachieving program. We are overly hard on ourselves BECAUSE we all know, consciously or subconsciously, that the sky is the limit at this job, and it is frustrating that we have only reached those heights a couple of times. It is even more frustrating that we looked VERY poised to return to those heights just two seasons ago and we went down in the Second Round.
 
#54      

Illini65418

I
Illini65418
Fighter of the Nightman said:
I do want to start off by saying that I INDEED consider Utah a very good program historically and have a ton of respect for them, but that is because I am a bit of college basketball history nerd! ;) No, I 100% agree with you - we have put together an all-time "regular season resume" that is knocking on the door of the top10, and we have put together a "March Madness" resume that is closer to top 30. What you get in the end is us pretty fairly being ranked anywhere from the extremely favorable 15 to closer to 25 all-time. I think "top 20 program all-time" is generous but fair ... despite our disappointments, we do still have 5 Final Fours!

My point was more that there are other very good programs that have their own "stains" on their all-time resumes in different ways that don't seem to have as "woe is me" fans as we do. Yes, Maryland won a title in 2002 and that is amazing, but they have only been to TWO Final Fours ever! And they were both in a 2-year span!! Yet their fans act like they're elite as hell, lol. I just wish Illini fans actually had a bit MORE homerism, because nobody is ever going to sing your praises anymore than you would about yourself. It's disheartening to see Illini fans not at least appreciate what we have accomplished and, even more importantly, acknowledge that if you label us as historic underachievers (which is TOTALLY fair!), you must necessarily acknowledge our extremely high ceiling. If Iowa had our all-time stats, people would consider them an overachieving program. We are overly hard on ourselves BECAUSE we all know, consciously or subconsciously, that the sky is the limit at this job, and it is frustrating that we have only reached those heights a couple of times. It is even more frustrating that we looked VERY poised to return to those heights just two seasons ago and we went down in the Second Round.
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Excellent post, and specifically agree with the bolded.

I do think a lot of people (especially on this board) do have a lot of homerism, but you're right in that there are a lot of us who also do see the heights that can be reached and aren't quite content with the status quo due to this potential. Many of those people also have this homerism, but don't want to turn this board into an echo chamber and do have amateur-type critiques on areas that seemingly can be improved. Just takes the right staff and years of building the program. Whether Underwood is the coach to do that is TBD, he certainly can but need to see him take that next step in the tourney sooner rather than later.
 
#55      

Illinicpa14

I
Chicago
Illinicpa14
Fighter of the Nightman said:
I do want to start off by saying that I INDEED consider Utah a very good program historically and have a ton of respect for them, but that is because I am a bit of college basketball history nerd! ;) No, I 100% agree with you - we have put together an all-time "regular season resume" that is knocking on the door of the top10, and we have put together a "March Madness" resume that is closer to top 30. What you get in the end is us pretty fairly being ranked anywhere from the extremely favorable 15 to closer to 25 all-time. I think "top 20 program all-time" is generous but fair ... despite our disappointments, we do still have 5 Final Fours!

My point was more that there are other very good programs that have their own "stains" on their all-time resumes in different ways that don't seem to have as "woe is me" fans as we do. Yes, Maryland won a title in 2002 and that is amazing, but they have only been to TWO Final Fours ever! And they were both in a 2-year span!! Yet their fans act like they're elite as hell, lol. I just wish Illini fans actually had a bit MORE homerism, because nobody is ever going to sing your praises anymore than you would about yourself. It's disheartening to see Illini fans not at least appreciate what we have accomplished and, even more importantly, acknowledge that if you label us as historic underachievers (which is TOTALLY fair!), you must necessarily acknowledge our extremely high ceiling. If Iowa had our all-time stats, people would consider them an overachieving program. We are overly hard on ourselves BECAUSE we all know, consciously or subconsciously, that the sky is the limit at this job, and it is frustrating that we have only reached those heights a couple of times. It is even more frustrating that we looked VERY poised to return to those heights just two seasons ago and we went down in the Second Round.
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I love this post in the description of Maryland and why I think this program can be higher. We’ve been a #1 seed in just about every decade and with different coaches and styles. Clearly it is possible to be at the top here and doing it without specific type of play/style. With the exception of Groce, almost every coach here has gone through a 2-3 year very good period (at least regular season/total wins).

Compare to IU where although they have great tradition, unless knight is walking back through, I’m not sure they’ll ever be back to their prior levels as a program.
 
#56      

Illini in Italy

Illini in Italy
Illini in Italy
Illinicpa14 said:
I love this post in the description of Maryland and why I think this program can be higher. We’ve been a #1 seed in just about every decade and with different coaches and styles. Clearly it is possible to be at the top here and doing it without specific type of play/style. With the exception of Groce, almost every coach here has gone through a 2-3 year very good period (at least regular season/total wins).

Compare to IU where although they have great tradition, unless knight is walking back through, I’m not sure they’ll ever be back to their prior levels as a program.
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Almost . . . Teams were not fully seeded in the tournament until 1979. To make it easier, late's say '80. We were seeded #1 once in the '80's ('89 with Henson) none in the '90's, twice in the '00's ('01 with Self, '05 with Weber), none in the '10's, and so far once in the '20's ('21 with Underwood). So in 43 years we've had four #1 seeds. In an earlier post I pointed out that we do indeed have a storied program, our tournament results are tepid, at best. Our expectations (at least here on Loyalty) far exceed our history, rich as it is.
 
#57      

altgeld88

altgeld88
Arlington, Virginia
altgeld88
Have been offline since Friday and so didn't see the news about Bob Huggins. Sad but inevitable, I suppose. He has clearly had a serious, untreated drinking problem for many, many years. It's a wonder that he hasn't killed anyone behind the wheel.

He's also brilliant, which is why he'll go down as one of the greats, and not just of his era. I grew up watching his younger brother Larry play as a starting guard on Ohio State's teams in the early '80s. Their dad was a well-known, championship coach in a small town in eastern Ohio. I didn't realize until he coached at Cincy that Huggy was an assistant coach on those Ohio State teams for a couple years and had in fact recruited his brother. He was so effective that he got his first head coaching job after just a single season as a WVa grad assistant and two years on the bench as an AC at Ohio State.

Coincidentally, the weekend before last on Saturday evening I visited the grave of a friend from nearly 25 years ago. We dated for most of a year, broke up, and lost touch because of a lack of friends in common. A bright, kind, radiant, loving soul inside and out. Just a stunning woman in every way (literally a traffic-stopper) but something was slightly off about her, which was why we parted.

I learned several years ago that she died not much more than a decade later, just shy of 43, at her own hand from the effects of alcoholism. I'd seen the damage done to other friends earlier in life growing up in alcoholic homes but hadn't known a contemporary well (to my knowledge) who struggled with the addiction. Finally standing over her grave that evening, holding a bouquet of flowers, I stared incomprehensibly at the finality of her marker: 1968-2011. I wondered to myself how she could leave all of this when she had so many gifts, had worked so hard to excel professionally, and had so many who loved her. 'Cause she didn't see the sublime forest for the peeling bark she'd slammed her face against, I guess. It's complex, of course, but ineffably tragic.

I hope this is truly rock bottom for Huggy and he ends his drinking. I imagine that his family and friends have suffered silently, and profoundly, for many years. His employers, and many others I'm sure, have certainly enabled him for decades.

Finally, not to be complete downer, I was reading through some articles about him and came across one from the Cleveland newspaper in 2010. The italicized passage below made me chuckle, as it will my fellow Illini fans.

West Virginia coach Bob Huggins' hard-driving style, work ethic traces to small southeast Ohio town
www.cleveland.com

West Virginia coach Bob Huggins' hard-driving style, work ethic traces to small southeast Ohio town

Yes, Bob Huggins was born in Morgantown, W.Va., in 1953. Yes, he was an Academic All-America team captain and MVP at West Virginia. But that doesn't mean he's a West Virginian through and through.
www.cleveland.com www.cleveland.com

So Huggins still starts his practices at West Virginia with footwork drills that Charlie Huggins used in Gnadenhutten 40 years ago. He still demands maximum effort from his players, and when he doesn't see it, he sticks players on a treadmill because "you can't cheat on a treadmill," according to Larry Huggins.

That's the way he was taught to do it in small-town Ohio. That's the way he still does it now.
 
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#58      

Bacon Butkus Swanson

B
Bacon Butkus Swanson
AttentionDeficit said:
Indy/440, Is this a good enough gig for Underwood's out?
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Let me save everyone that is worried about BU leaving for WVU some anguish. It isn't gonna happen..... WVU has the lofty goal of winning more than one game in the NCAA tourney each year they qualify.

1687195285133.png
 
#64      

Fighter of the Nightman

Fighter of the Nightman
Chicago, IL
Fighter of the Nightman
Illini in Italy said:
Almost . . . Teams were not fully seeded in the tournament until 1979. To make it easier, late's say '80. We were seeded #1 once in the '80's ('89 with Henson) none in the '90's, twice in the '00's ('01 with Self, '05 with Weber), none in the '10's, and so far once in the '20's ('21 with Underwood). So in 43 years we've had four #1 seeds. In an earlier post I pointed out that we do indeed have a storied program, our tournament results are tepid, at best. Our expectations (at least here on Loyalty) far exceed our history, rich as it is.
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I feel like this REALLY undersells our "accomplishment" as far as getting #1 seeds. Four #1 seeds in 43 years might not sound like a lot, but these are the only programs who have more:

17 - North Carolina
15 - Kansas
14 - Duke
12 - Kentucky
7 - Arizona, Virginia
5 - UConn, Georgetown, Michigan State, Oklahoma, Gonzaga

Illinois has as many #1 seeds as programs like UCLA and Villanova! And we have more #1 seeds all-time than some very storied programs, including the following:

- Indiana (3)
- Michigan (3)
- Syracuse (3)
- Louisville (2)
- Arkansas (2)
- Maryland (1)

As another posted alluded to, as well, we have four #1 seeds under four different coaches! That is frankly astonishing. I don't have time to browse the list, but I would bet anything we are one of only a handful of programs in the country that can say that, and it would not shock me if we were the ONLY program in the country that could say that, given many of these programs had one legendary coach for a long time. That speaks to a remarkable level of self sustainability, if you ask me!

And in those four instances, we have only truly disappointed in 2021, when we lost in the Second Round. In 1989 and 2005 we made the Final Four (or further in the case of '05!), and in 2001 we made the Elite Eight. When we have had these truly elite teams, we have actually performed well in the Tournament with 2021 being the huge exception. What has mentally scarred our fan base and hurt our reputation are the following soul-crushing years, where we have hung Big Ten championship banners and earned top seeds only to go home in the Second Round:

1986: #4 seed, lost in the Second Round
1987: #3 seed, lost in the First Round
1988: #3 seed, lost in the Second Round
1990: #5 seed, lost in the First Round
1998: #5 seed and Big Ten champion, lost in the Second Round
2002: #4 seed and BTT champion, lost in the Second Round
2006: #4 seed and almost Big Ten champion plus our last year of Dee, lost in the Second Round
2009: #5 seed and finally "good" again but Chester gets hurt, lost in the First Round
2022: #4 seed and Big Ten champion, lost in the Second Round

We have quite literally never played above our "seed line" as a "very good team" - only as a "great" team. And I think that is what (A) makes Illini fans more pessimistic than we should be because we've never gotten a "pleasant surprise" in March Madness and (B) made 2021's Loyola loss cut SO deep, as at least we had never been let down by a team we all knew was truly elite until this point.
 
#67      

BashCtIllini

BashCtIllini
BashCtIllini
Bogey99 said:
I assume this is about Huggins' replacement at WVU.
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That's definitely the case, and I'd imagine he'd jump at it. Worked with Huggins for a long time, so presumably his system is similar, and has already spent 5 years in Morgantown. Looks to be a pretty good coach. Took a DII program in West Virginia to the title game. Then took a pretty bad Youngstown State team to a conference title and 24 wins in 6 seasons.

If Huggins retired at the end of the season, I don't think Calhoun would be the replacement. However, in a strange twist of fate for him, this looks like a great opportunity to go right to primetime, when he otherwise would have likely had to another step to get a P6 job.
 
#68      

Illini in Italy

Illini in Italy
Illini in Italy
Fighter of the Nightman said:
I feel like this REALLY undersells our "accomplishment" as far as getting #1 seeds. Four #1 seeds in 43 years might not sound like a lot, but these are the only programs who have more:

17 - North Carolina
15 - Kansas
14 - Duke
12 - Kentucky
7 - Arizona, Virginia
5 - UConn, Georgetown, Michigan State, Oklahoma, Gonzaga

Illinois has as many #1 seeds as programs like UCLA and Villanova! And we have more #1 seeds all-time than some very storied programs, including the following:

- Indiana (3)
- Michigan (3)
- Syracuse (3)
- Louisville (2)
- Arkansas (2)
- Maryland (1)

As another posted alluded to, as well, we have four #1 seeds under four different coaches! That is frankly astonishing. I don't have time to browse the list, but I would bet anything we are one of only a handful of programs in the country that can say that, and it would not shock me if we were the ONLY program in the country that could say that, given many of these programs had one legendary coach for a long time. That speaks to a remarkable level of self sustainability, if you ask me!

And in those four instances, we have only truly disappointed in 2021, when we lost in the Second Round. In 1989 and 2005 we made the Final Four (or further in the case of '05!), and in 2001 we made the Elite Eight. When we have had these truly elite teams, we have actually performed well in the Tournament with 2021 being the huge exception. What has mentally scarred our fan base and hurt our reputation are the following soul-crushing years, where we have hung Big Ten championship banners and earned top seeds only to go home in the Second Round:

1986: #4 seed, lost in the Second Round
1987: #3 seed, lost in the First Round
1988: #3 seed, lost in the Second Round
1990: #5 seed, lost in the First Round
1998: #5 seed and Big Ten champion, lost in the Second Round
2002: #4 seed and BTT champion, lost in the Second Round
2006: #4 seed and almost Big Ten champion plus our last year of Dee, lost in the Second Round
2009: #5 seed and finally "good" again but Chester gets hurt, lost in the First Round
2022: #4 seed and Big Ten champion, lost in the Second Round

We have quite literally never played above our "seed line" as a "very good team" - only as a "great" team. And I think that is what (A) makes Illini fans more pessimistic than we should be because we've never gotten a "pleasant surprise" in March Madness and (B) made 2021's Loyola loss cut SO deep, as at least we had never been let down by a team we all knew was truly elite until this point.
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Yeah, the ratio of #1 per coach is not good for us, but Kentucky actually has 5 coaches that achieved a #1. As I was digging through the data, I did notice that Villanova's ratio of #1 seed to natty was 75%! They've had four #1 seeds, and won three natty's from them! I still maintain that pur tournament record is tepid at best. I will also add that the '89 Flyin' Illini was the biggest disappointment for me personally. I was in Europe on business and was not able to watch the game. To lose to a ScUM team that we had already beaten twice during the regular season was the biggest nut punch I'd ever received up to that point in my life.
 
#69      

Fighter of the Nightman

Fighter of the Nightman
Chicago, IL
Fighter of the Nightman
Illini in Italy said:
Yeah, the ratio of #1 per coach is not good for us, but Kentucky actually has 5 coaches that achieved a #1. As I was digging through the data, I did notice that Villanova's ratio of #1 seed to natty was 75%! They've had four #1 seeds, and won three natty's from them! I still maintain that pur tournament record is tepid at best. I will also add that the '89 Flyin' Illini was the biggest disappointment for me personally. I was in Europe on business and was not able to watch the game. To lose to a ScUM team that we had already beaten twice during the regular season was the biggest nut punch I'd ever received up to that point in my life.
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Yeah, I really meant more not a disappointment "officially" (i.e., a #1 seed should at least make the Elite Eight, and a Final Four is a "success"). However, losing to Michigan in that fashion in 1989 was truly tragic in a sports context, and missing SIX three pointers in a row that we had sunk ALL YEAR in the last couple minutes in 2005 is still my most traumatizing sports memory.
 
#70      

drsmitty74

drsmitty74
Rochester
drsmitty74
Bogey99 said:
I assume this is about Huggins' replacement at WVU.
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Selfishly, I was hoping he was referring to past rumors of adding another coach with the new NCAA rules, or replacement of a certain AC that handles our offense.
 
#71      

TCTORNADO

TCTORNADO
TCTORNADO
Indy Illini Fan said:

Jerrod Calhoun - Head Men's Basketball Coach - Men's Basketball Coaches - Youngstown State University

Jerrod Calhoun enters his eighth season as Head Coach of the Youngstown State University men’s basketball program after being named to the position on March 27,
ysusports.com ysusports.com
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certainly connects the dots with Jim Tressel as president of YSU and Gordon Gee (former tOSU president) now president at WVU. Gordon Gee is a very hands on president. The guy makes sense.
 
#72      

IlliniBrave75

IlliniBrave75
IlliniBrave75
Since there are more eyes on this thread, I thought I would put this out there again. The way I read the below, NCAA Division I basketball will be allowed to at 2 more coaches to staff as of July 1. Any thoughts on what Underwood is planning on doing with those spots? Could move Geoff to a non-recruiting position!

NCAA Division I Council modernizes rules for coaching limits​


COACHING LIMITS​

The Council voted to eliminate the voluntary coach designation across Division I, instead including those coaches within a new limit for countable coaches in each of the applicable sports.

By adopting the proposal, the number of countable coaches in baseball, softball and ice hockey increased to four total in each sport. The Council rejected an additional increase to five countable coaches in those sports.

The Council supported an increase of two coaches in men's and women's basketball. These additional coaches may engage in coaching activities but may not recruit off campus. The rules change codified a waiver in those sports that allowed noncoaching staff members to engage in skill instruction.

www.ncaa.com

NCAA Division I Council modernizes rules for coaching limits

The Division I Council took steps to modernize a number of rules Wednesday, including approving adjustments to transfer waiver guidelines, modifying personnel rules across several sports and formally eliminating the requirement for standardized test scores in initial eligibility. The Council met...
www.ncaa.com www.ncaa.com
 
#73      

ptgrd23

ptgrd23
ptgrd23
Brad needs his "Tex Winters" to teach the new offense. It did wonders for Phil Jackson.
 
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