Deep, old, experienced, healthy
.....with multiple key players coming back from extensive injuries/layoffs
Illini Basketball 2016-2017
- Status
Deep, old, experienced, healthy
.....with multiple key players coming back from extensive injuries/layoffs
Groce's demeanor
I tried to start a new thread but don't have enough posting activity so I am putting this here. I could not get the last two games on tv but this is an observation I have felt strongly about. Groce never seems to rip kids during the games. Everything is gung ho high five or nothing. Tom Izzo gets after kids if they don't do what they are supposed to. They respect him and dare I say fear him a little but also love him for it. Our guys constantly underperform. I think they like Groce but do not fear or respect him like the MSU players do Izzo. Plus they see ford doing the subbing so why keep Groce happy.....
I tried to start a new thread but don't have enough posting activity so I am putting this here. I could not get the last two games on tv but this is an observation I have felt strongly about. Groce never seems to rip kids during the games. Everything is gung ho high five or nothing. Tom Izzo gets after kids if they don't do what they are supposed to. They respect him and dare I say fear him a little but also love him for it. Our guys constantly underperform. I think they like Groce but do not fear or respect him like the MSU players do Izzo. Plus they see ford doing the subbing so why keep Groce happy.....
Theres one massive key lacking. Chemistry! Which will get better and better as the year goes on and the rotation gets solidified.
Illini1221
Peru,IL
It is still hard to argue with that record at the moment. I think the middle of the pack big ten teams are extremely similar. Really anyone's ballgame IMO during conference play.
Tevo
- Wilmette, IL
Which should happen every year, which should mean you're looking better in January than, say, November, but which we never tend to do. Each season seems to be a microcosm of the entire Groce tenure -- no consistent trends that promote optimism. Sure, there are short bursts -- the winning streak after Rice went down, a good recruiting win, a big win over a strong team -- but they are only ever bursts, and are never sustained long enough or repeated often enough for anyone to think the team or the program is making real progress.
I agree that most of Groce's teams have lacked chemistry but also realize that they have had little consistency in personnel. This is not a formula for good chemistry. This year they have some history together but have never really played in real games together much. They still need some time. If there is not chemistry and some good team ball played this year with the results to prove it, I will be one to jump off the bandwagon. Until then, I remain optimistic that they can pull it together.
TownieMatt
CU Expat
- Chicago
I think I agree with you, but Groce also has to take blame for the lack of consistency. He's the one that orchestrated all the transfers.
I don't think there's any doubt that this year is make or break. Groce has had real adversity to work through the last several seasons, but things have finally broken his way. He's got two 6th year guys, no serious injuries, and a load of talent. If he can't pull it together this year, it doesn't bode well for the future. I'm still hopeful he can make it happen.
Personally, before the BTT, I can see us with anywhere between 17-21 wins if we win all the games we should... Which obviously isn't always true. Truth be told, the lose to Winthrop can be a positive if it gives our guys perspective that any team can come in and win. We are gonna need every win we should get and probably 3 or 4 tossup games (NW away, Iowa away, OSU home, etc...)
Still such a young season that even in a couple weeks, barring a complete meltdown, we will still have a decent ( >25%) shot of making the tourney. The problem being a bubble team thats streaky like we are is that when we beat teams we shouldn't, we lose to teams we shouldn't as well. Here's hoping skill, leadership, and experience eliminate the latter sooner than later.
Still such a young season that even in a couple weeks, barring a complete meltdown, we will still have a decent ( >25%) shot of making the tourney. The problem being a bubble team thats streaky like we are is that when we beat teams we shouldn't, we lose to teams we shouldn't as well. Here's hoping skill, leadership, and experience eliminate the latter sooner than later.
If the Winthrop loss doesn't light a fire underneath these seniors, then we should feel justified in giving up on the season. Because they will have.
Illini1221
Peru,IL
By the looks of the post game press conference Monday, Tracy looked ready to explode. Its up to the other seniors to carry their weight.
I think I agree with you, but Groce also has to take blame for the lack of consistency. He's the one that orchestrated all the transfers.
I don't think there's any doubt that this year is make or break. Groce has had real adversity to work through the last several seasons, but things have finally broken his way. He's got two 6th year guys, no serious injuries, and a load of talent. If he can't pull it together this year, it doesn't bode well for the future. I'm still hopeful he can make it happen.
I'm amazed anyone can make this statement with a straight face. We've got two top 50 guys in JCL and Black. And a few more top 100 guys. Certainly H.S. rankings aren't gospel, but no way that qualifies as a "load of talent."
If missing the tournament 3 years in a row is not enough to light a fire on the seniors and we need a loss to Winthrop to do so, then god help us all.
I wish he would. At the other players if necessary. That performance was absolutely pitiful, and somebody within the program has gotta let it be known that it's unacceptable. With absolutely zero insight or real knowledge of Groce, I'd hazard a guess that he's not the type to go off on his team in the locker room.
I think this is a great way to put it. The alarm bells are going off like crazy to a bunch of us as fans, because we've seen this lack of leadership turn into a disaster before. Groce doesn't appear to be the kind of leader to call out guys for missing plays or lacking urgency at critical times or find a way to get them to play like champions. Quite the opposite, we've seen him put a positive spin on countless !@#$ performances. But if he's not able to call guys out in a way that gets them playing up, then he has to have guys on the floor that can. Maybe that's how he succeeded at Ohio - DJ Cooper may have been the kind of leader that raised his team up despite Groce.
Thus far, I would like to give credit where credit is due and say Malcolm Hill is shooting 45% from 3 through 7 games on 6.5 3PA compared to 39% on 3.3PA('14/'15). I understand the frustration with team performance and how one could point fingers at Hill--especially regarding some questionable 1v1 creation as the shotclock expires...but I'm also not entirely convinced he couldn't be shooting close to 50% from the floor in a legitimate offensive scheme. I truly believe we're seeing a better basketball player in the midst of this madness.
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PostersLastStand
- Wayne County, IL
I would like to see up tempo, is the team athletic enough to play that style? Offensively talented enough? Something has to give. I haven't seen a whole game, I listened at work, I did catch the West Virginia game and WOW we got crushed by a vicious team. Love that type of play! If a had a Christmas wish for the Illini, it would be to play defense and rebound like WV.
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PostersLastStand
- Wayne County, IL
Our guard play is still not good, in all we don't pass well. It seems the ball either doesn't find the open man or gets there late. Our rebounding is also not easy to watch, I think it is an overall lack of physicality. Also, is it up to the players or coaches to right the ship? Or both or does Josh Whitman step in...?
If coaches and players don't get it together, there is nothing that Whitman can do, other than make a decision at the end of the season.
Does anyone know the exact closeout technique groce teaches? I had a coach who attended his clinic describe it to me quickly one time and it seemed like the opposite of what I had always been taught. I was in a group and didn't catch everything but it was something like closing out not so low to the ground and only with one arm up instead of two. If they are being taught to stand up higher on closeouts then that would explain getting roasted on drives. If I am wrongly describing what is being taught please correct me
One thing he does seem to teach is force middle to all the help. I believe this contributes to so many threes against us. Many coaches force baseline and sideline to use them as defenders. I wish we would do this
Forcing middle worked better in the days before the 3 point line. Watch tapes of 1980s games on ESPN and you will see it. The game is different now
One thing he does seem to teach is force middle to all the help. I believe this contributes to so many threes against us. Many coaches force baseline and sideline to use them as defenders. I wish we would do this
Forcing middle worked better in the days before the 3 point line. Watch tapes of 1980s games on ESPN and you will see it. The game is different now
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618 Illini
- Chicago
I am not one to be on the fire Groce train but the one thing I can't let slide is the lack of "identity" with Groce's teams. When you look around the league, the successful programs are typically known for something that they have yea rover year (Izzo's focus on hustle plays, Wiscos slow tempto and focus on good possessions, Duke's love for shooters).
Offensively the players seem to take turns hovering beyond the arc waiting until somebody beats their man or we run a high pick n roll and hope for the best. When I watch other teams with successful offenses, they seem to have a standard offensive scheme with flex/baseline cuts, 4 guys high at the FT line running off each other and various other additions like backdoor cuts/slipscreens/dribble handoff etc. to keep teams honest. Throughout Groce's time here I have always felt underwhelmed by his offense and don't really see it changing.
Defensively I believe you should have an identity as well. For example Cuse plays the stretch zone, VCU Havoc, WVU full court press etc. I am not saying we should implement the full court press per se, but I wish Groce had an identity and then recruited to fill roles within the system. When looking at Huggins' team it appears he finds the most athletic high motor guys that are willing to buy into the press idea and tells them to run around like crazy and create turnovers. If you are tired, he has a bench full of like minded and able bodied individuals that can sub in to give you a break. Our defense cannot play man to man for some reason which results in us dropping into some sort of loose 2-3 zone D. The strategy there sees to be, "get them to shoot it, hope for the miss and then hope for the rebound" and does not appear to be effective.
I think Groce is a great guy, mentor/leader and perfect representation of the University but I believe his lack of identity on both ends of the floor will keep him hovering around mediocrity and thus will not be the long term solution.
Offensively the players seem to take turns hovering beyond the arc waiting until somebody beats their man or we run a high pick n roll and hope for the best. When I watch other teams with successful offenses, they seem to have a standard offensive scheme with flex/baseline cuts, 4 guys high at the FT line running off each other and various other additions like backdoor cuts/slipscreens/dribble handoff etc. to keep teams honest. Throughout Groce's time here I have always felt underwhelmed by his offense and don't really see it changing.
Defensively I believe you should have an identity as well. For example Cuse plays the stretch zone, VCU Havoc, WVU full court press etc. I am not saying we should implement the full court press per se, but I wish Groce had an identity and then recruited to fill roles within the system. When looking at Huggins' team it appears he finds the most athletic high motor guys that are willing to buy into the press idea and tells them to run around like crazy and create turnovers. If you are tired, he has a bench full of like minded and able bodied individuals that can sub in to give you a break. Our defense cannot play man to man for some reason which results in us dropping into some sort of loose 2-3 zone D. The strategy there sees to be, "get them to shoot it, hope for the miss and then hope for the rebound" and does not appear to be effective.
I think Groce is a great guy, mentor/leader and perfect representation of the University but I believe his lack of identity on both ends of the floor will keep him hovering around mediocrity and thus will not be the long term solution.
Two problems. One, most of our perimeter defenders are so easily susceptible to crossover blow-bys they have great difficulty in forcing anywhere. Second, even when they can force to the middle, they're forcing into bigs that are too slow to stop the penetration. I think this is why we're seeing so much zone these days (staff can't fix man to man deficiencies).
Malcolm Hill is certainly bottom tier on the "athletic" chart. Malcolm Hill is also bottom tier on the "dribbling/handling" chart.
That's like saying 3 > 2. While you're technically correct, just not a wide enough gap to accept the risk.
Our zone defense this year is much better than it has been in the past few years, although I guess that is ...ing with faint praise.
Do you mean for P5 players at his position? Bottom tier is a stretch, IMO. I think Malcolm is average athletically: runs okay, not very explosive, strong, good coordination. He's not some kind of stiff - he's just not Andrew Wiggins. Average at worst as an all-around athlete. As a ball handler he's not great, but again, "bottom tier" is not accurate. He's probably average for a P5 wing.
Malcolm would be ideal as a #2 or elite #3 scoring option on a top team. It's unfortunate that he's by far our best player and, as such, has to deal with unrealistic expectations. However, let's not pretend he's got horrible deficiencies: he's a borderline NBA prospect for a reason, and it's not just his step-back mid-range jumper. He's an okay athlete, okay playmaker, okay outside shooter, okay defender, okay rebounder, and a dynamite (sometimes unstoppable) scorer from the elbow to the circle. He's lower tier athletically compared to 1st round NBA draft picks, but that's a whole different conversation.
For the record, I'd bet $1,000 that Malcolm would beat Taylor Bruninga 15-0 almost every time if they played 1-on-1
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