Illini Basketball 2017-2018
BananaShampoo
Captain 'Paign
- Phoenix, AZ
I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night and I agree.
Aren't you in the "swamp"??
That explains it. Mr Trump drained my 1,400 other posts. Fake posts!
Edit: Just noticed it no longer mentions that I live in "the swamp".
Re-edit: Fixed that, at least.
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Just because it’s a 4 in the picture doesn’t mean it has to be a “4” man. It’s whoever was on the opposite wing when the ball hit the other wing. Yes, it’s good to have someone there who is a post threat, but who says that guy has to be a big? Guards who post up are deadly. It’s the same reason bigs who can handle and shoot are deadly. Inverting the floor puts defenders in a position they don’t necessarily work in a lot.
In an earlier post you said the skill sets in the perimeter 4 don’t need to be interchangeable. Every player outside can certainly have a different primary strength. One can be a great shooter, one a strong slasher, one an unstoppable driver, one shaq in the post etc. However, they damn sure better be able to dribble, pass, shoot. Did you ever in your life think you’d see Leron lead a pick/handoff and roll? Me either. But we have at least 10 times this year. Any one of the 4 guys outside will be put in position to do that, or cut to the basket, or post up, or make entry passes. To say that the positions are not interchangeable and the skill sets don’t have to be, I just don’t know what to say.
The number has nothing to do with my argument. To be effective posting up in the low block you need to have post-up skills and (preferably) some size. Whether that is a PF type or a C makes really little difference, that is why a said in the pinch post, the 4/5 positions in that set are really interchangeable.
It does not matter what you call the player. With the emergence of super players (mostly in the pros), i.e., talented players with size that can easily play multiple positions (e.g., Giannis), the skillset/positions make them really interchangeable. It does not really matter whether you call them a PG, a SG, a SF, PF, or often even a C. The have the skillset to support all.
That is not the case with most players, especially in college. Kipper does not have post-up skills in the low block. He simply does not. Same was with Malcolm. When BU says positions 1-4 do not matter, he means starting positions on the set do not matter. But there is a great difference as far as the skillset required to play PG for example. It does not mean that "hey we do have a PG on this team but we have multiple SF's so it does not matter because in the spread offense positions 1-4 are interchangeable." The skillsets (e.g., the skillset of a PG) are not interchangeable (e.g., with the skillset of a SF).
Again, Kipper does not have the post-up skills in the low block. Neither does any of the many SG/SF or PGs. It makes a huge difference. As I said, there are some obvious limitations on roster/frontcourt and skills/talent, which puts a cap on what the current team can accomplish, no matter how much they master the system (i.e., spread offense).
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You Sir are very clever and creative!!
Any player can post up. I am not sure what you are arguing, to be honest. We will likely try to get our best post up players in combination with our best matchup in the post. If the other team has a 5'8 player guarding Frazier, and Frazier works on posting up, it may be to our advantage to have that matchup exploited and try to get him in that post up.
I remember Devin Harris, specifically, at Wisconsin being a good post up player. It worked, even though he wasn't a 4.
Our post-up game in the low block and paint area is significantly lacking. If you think we have the personnel and skills needed fine, but results show otherwise. If you think we do not lack in the frontcourt and low block/post, because we can just interchangeably run PG/SG/SF in the post with no problem, then there will be no problems moving forward and we will compete for the B1G. But please get back to me at the end of the season with this argument again...
Bolded 1: it doesn’t matter if it’s a PF or a C. It also doesn’t matter if it’s a pg. if you’re cutter two, you post up. You just need to be a better post player than your man is a defender. Even a bad post player vs a horrible post defender still has an advantage.
Bolded 2: You say the 4/5 (post guys in your theory) are more interchangeable. In the full actuality of the spread, 1-5 is interchangeable. No, it actually is. BU calls it push, where one of the cutters will push the HP guy out of the high post, and he takes over the cut of the guy who pushed him. Mark Smith has been the guy to take over the high post when we’ve done this. He’s certainly not a post up big. If we had a post up big in the spot and we pushed him, he better have some level of dribble/pass/shoot skill cause he’s gonna be playing the perimeter now.
Bolded 3: Clearly BU thinks Kipper can post. Otherwise he wouldn’t call his high post entry counter that leads to a low post iso, for Kipper. He’s done it multiple times this year. They haven’t even run it for Leron.
Bolded 4: I don’t think you realize you’re making my argument. The starting positions don’t matter because those guys need interchangeable skills. Again they can have a primary skill that is dominant, but they all need to be able to dribble, pass, shoot, post at a minimal level. Someone can be better at one of those things than others, but they all need to be able to do them all. If that wasn’t the case bu wouldn’t work on so much ball handling/passing with his bigs and post work with his guards (skills that are usually reserved for the opposite position group)
You also keep bringing up the pinch post guy (“5”) as your argument to be interchangeable with a “4” who, in your theory, is a post up guy. While there are multiple opportunities for low post looks for that guy (post/repost/high low, all in a row actually, which I explained many times when people were serious about Tilmon not fitting the system), his skill set also requires much more than traditional posting. He needs to be able to shoot the elbow j, hit 3s, and create for himself or others off 1-2 dribbles from the pp. In the latter half of the 2 man game he’ll have his opportunity for traditional post ups, but before that even comes, if we run it the right way, he’s gonna have to work shoot/pass/drive options first. It’s possible (not probable/desirable mind you, but possible) a full time pp guy could go a whole game without getting the ball in the low post, be a real threat, and score a bunch of points.
The argument is not about roster limitations (I don’t disagree we have them). It’s about interchangeability of the positions within the scheme. I also don’t think we’re ever gonna agree on this, so I’ll give you the last word and we can agree to disagree and move on.
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Suggest not transmitting classified basketball messages in the future from an unsecure server in a restroom. In the meantime, go Illini.
You can try to post up in the paint a PG all you want, the defender will not necessarily be PG, the defenders will just switch and/or come with backside help. Otherwise there will be no need for low-post post-up type of players.
You interpret interchangeability different than I do. The starting positions maybe interchangeable, the skills (and often physical attributes of players) are not. If 1-4 or 1-5 as you say are interchangeable based on your interpretation, a team with no PG, will be at no disadvantage since SG/SF/PF type of players will just substitute that gap. For me that would not work. Same with lack of frontcourt and post players. You say that Kipper plays in the low-post by design because of BU thinks he is good at it and trusts him, I say he plays out of position because we have gaps in the frontcourt and do not have options (i.e., by necessity).
Based on your definition of interchangeability on 1-5 we really have no gaps offensively. I say our frontcourt has major shortages that can't be fixed with interchangeability. So we will not agree and we can move on. At the end, I believe the results will show whether we have gaps or not and we can revisit the discussion at the end of the season.
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On a number of the plays it looks like:
* a guard dribbles toward the high post,
* the guard hands the high post the ball
* the high post pivots 180 and hands the ball back to the same guard
I have not seen the high post do anything except hand the ball back, so why go through these motions? Coach promised the high post more touches?
* a guard dribbles toward the high post,
* the guard hands the high post the ball
* the high post pivots 180 and hands the ball back to the same guard
I have not seen the high post do anything except hand the ball back, so why go through these motions? Coach promised the high post more touches?
Both Finke and Leron have both made jumpers out of that play several times. They keep the ball if the defenders follow the guard who's cutting towards the basket.
Deleted member 4333
D
Guest
Help me understand the difference between these two. Thanks.
This is my definition only. I consider a slasher as a devastating cutter, so he threatens the defense without the ball, because when he gets it he gets it in a position to score. This is an especially important skill with spread.
A driver gets to the rim with the ball, probably the same as everyone’s definition.
Basically off ball/on ball. Again that’s just me. I think it’s become important to distinguish the two because young players today really have trouble moving and being a threat to finish at the rim without the ball. And scoring off a sprinted cut, like cutter one of spread, is not necessarily easy. You gotta have a certain feel for it.
ChazzReinhold
Mom! The Meatloaf!
Watch the Longwood highlights. Finke fakes the handoff to Smith and hits the elbow jumper.
Deleted member 4333
D
Guest
You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all the people some of the time, but no one can fool the entire board every time.
ILL in IA
- Iowa City
"We wont get fooled again" GW Bush
I am not saying that we are great at posting up guards right now, but I think our offense has positions 1-4 post up, based on my understanding. If they suck at posting, then they probably won't get the ball there.
I don't believe our offense is "you are great at posting up, so go down on the block and post."
Again, I am not entirely sure what your argument is. I am trying to get it. It seems like you just don't want to agree with FiveStar.