Whoops you're right. Was going off the Big Ten list on sports reference, which does not include Douglas, for some reason.
Illini Basketball 2021-2022
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Inconsistencies on reporting some statistical categories pre-1985 (probably different conferences, I don't recall)... Douglas crushes everybody else in terms of Illini career steals.
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You could argue Trent has the better eraser on the back end this year vs 06 Dee, which allows for more steal opportunities. You could also argue the per-40 stats paint a significantly different picture year by year.
Dee's junior year was one for the ages, no doubt.
Key difference Trent vs Dee for me is Dee was a more consistent outside shooter. I think people forget how good of a shooter he was. Trent's decent, but has too many off nights where he shoots like 1 for 8 from long-range. Rarely saw that with Dee.
Also, while I think Dee's best spot was as a SG, he was a bit more capable in the PG roll than Trent.
Trent has had a great career for us, but Dee's just a bit ahead of him in a couple areas.
Also, while I think Dee's best spot was as a SG, he was a bit more capable in the PG roll than Trent.
Trent has had a great career for us, but Dee's just a bit ahead of him in a couple areas.
I can't believe this is even an argument. I love Trent, he brings a ton to this and previous years teams, undeniably an Illini great. Dee is arguably the best college guard we've ever had and could push for the best college player we've ever had as well.
I don't think Trent has been the best player on his own team in any of the 5 years he was here.
This is possibly a Dan-able offense. What are you talking about? Dee Brown was National Player of the Year for a 37-2 team that came within 6 points of winning the title and 9 or 10 points away from an undefeated season. This board is known for bad takes, but this honestly infuriated me. You can't possibly mean what you just said.
Dee was great but I think many of you forget Derek Harper or Bruce Douglas. Harper only played three years but was great both defensively and offensively. (I am uncertain what the stats will say), but Harper moved from point guard to shooting guard once Douglas got here so we could play both of them at the same time. Harper could dribble like no one's business. A great time in Illinois basketball...1981-1986 and then continued through the best team we ever had, the Flying Illini, until other coaches conspired to help break up what Lou was building.
pruman91
- Paducah, Ky
agree 100 %........Trent is one of my top Illini favorites , and it's because he is a great player , but moreso because he is so loyal to the program ....he could have left but he persevered and really took to being the elite defender he is now.........I wish we had a Trent Frazier on the squad every year , but Dee Brown was such an exciting player for the Illini....The one man fast break.....wow........a dynamite 3 pointer shooter..........Yep, tap the brakes on the Trent > Dee.....and Trent will go down as one of my Top 10 all time fave Illini.
When Dee popped the Illini jersey and it became the cover on a lot of magazines , that solidified his spot in my heart forever........
The Arizona Elite 8 comeback win is without a doubt my most hair raising experience in my sports watching life.......When I watch and hear what was said about that game , I still get chills all over .........Dee is Dee and Trent is Trent .....Let's enjoy both without comparing stats .....Both are true Illini and for that they both are very special to me.....
JMHO
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If Dee Brown was on this team, we would be looking to run... all... the... time. Between Dee and Ayo, I'm not sure who the best transition player we have had over the last 30 years, but its one of them.
Props to Ayo for being in the conversation, but I think it's a short one. Dee made everyone so much better in transition that I would put Luther's fast break highlight reel up against Ayo's without too much fear of looking a fool.
Dee could just plain old out run people to the basket. Ayo is extremely slick at getting by a retreating defender. (He is doing it consistently in the NBA, as well) My argument is that you could put either of those guys on any team, and they would automatically be a great transition team. The highlights might make a different argument, because Luther played with some of the best guards we have had in recent memory. Ayo was on a team that, as we are seeing this season, didn't have a lot of guys who are great on the run. The team stats in transition were good, because the strategy was mostly to look for Ayo on the outlet and let him press the issue. Of all the great things Ayo did for the team, this might be what we miss the most.
sacraig
- The desert
I love Frazier, but come on. It would probably be a competitive game but we are talking a consensus All-American (1st team once, 2nd team once), NPOY, Cousy and Naismith winner here. We all love Trent and he's a wonderful defender and streaky scorer/shooter, but I really don't think the outcome would really be that much in doubt.
I agree, but will also point out that 1v1 is a terrible way to project how good or valuable a basketball player is in a competitive full-team context. There are a lot of important basketball skills that don't matter in 1v1, and a lot of skills that disproportionately matter in that context.
Can't disagree with most of this. I'm gonna go out on that limb with you and say that we don't have the personnel to replicate last year's team, and also that it was our defense that really let us down on Saturday, so no beef there. I guess what I never get when these conversations come up is what there is to gain by slowing down? I think there's a general feeling that playing slower will lead to fewer mistakes, but as was demonstrated on Saturday on more than one occasion it's just as possible to turn the ball over by walking it up the court and making a bad entry pass into a double-team as it is to get out on a one-on-three and get snuffed. Both ultimately require good decisions. We slowed it down* and still made about as many turnovers as we'd been averaging all year long.
(*At 75 possessions this was actually one of the faster games we've played this year, though I think a lot of that has to do with Arizona scoring quickly rather than us pushing tempo.)
Anyway, I don't think we're talking about anything transformative here, but when you lose by four the game can be won at the margins. I don't see the harm in trying to get a guy like Plummer out in front of the ball and forcing the defense to find him instead of letting them wait on a predictable post entry pass. And I absolutely want Plummer, Trent, and Grandison (and hell, maybe even Williams once he's freed from the burden of being point guard) hunting open threes in transition. Those are the best looks they're going to get.
(Also, just to add to the saltiness here, I go Ayo > Dee > Trent but love them all.)
I understand everyone's desire to play fast. Fast is fun. I'm in the camp of we don't currently have the makeup of a fast paced team, that's JMO. But, just for fun I took a look at Kenpom to see what, if anything it would say about pace of play as an indicator of success.
Of the Top 50 teams in AdjT, only 12 are also in Kenpom's overall Top 100 teams. In fact, exactly half of the Top 50 in AdjT are ranked 200 or higher.
Interestingly, 3 of the 4 teams we struggled against are inside the Top 20 for AdjT. AZ (I'm actually fine with our performance in this game but it was still an L), Marquette, and UTRGV (won but it wasn't pretty).
Of the Top 50 teams in AdjT, only 12 are also in Kenpom's overall Top 100 teams. In fact, exactly half of the Top 50 in AdjT are ranked 200 or higher.
Interestingly, 3 of the 4 teams we struggled against are inside the Top 20 for AdjT. AZ (I'm actually fine with our performance in this game but it was still an L), Marquette, and UTRGV (won but it wasn't pretty).
Illini in Indiana
- Indiana
Wow, they are all great in different ways. Don't forget to add Deron.
But, have to agree Ayo will have the greatest impact on our Illini. Choosing the Illini, playing for the Bulls, from Chicago, awesome person, and our greatest recruiting tool.
JFGsCoffeeMug
BU:1 Trash cans:0
- Chicago
You're all out of your minds. Trent could absolutely beat Dee Brown 1-on-1 right now. According to Wikipedia, Dee is 53 and he's been retired since 2002. No way he could keep up at this point.
Agreed on Harper but not Douglas. Harper was absolutely as good as any guard we've had here (at least since the late 70s when I became a fan). And he was really good in the NBA also. Douglas was good, but not elite. Great defender and ball-handler, but his complete lack of an outside shot really hurt him. Never really progressed after his Soph year.
Mythologizing players you last saw play 15+ years ago is equally as dumb, but you do you boo.
It all comes down to what leads to the most efficient offense, on a per possession basis. I agree that good transition offense is hard to beat in that regard. But depending on team makeup, a half court game could be more efficient for a number of reasons. Maybe, while turnovers still happen in a slower tempo playing style, they happen less. Maybe for a good rebounding team, allowing your players to get into position leads to more offensive boards. Maybe going further into rhe shot clock and making an extra pass or two leads to higher percentage looks. I don't have the stats but I bet if you looked at our efficiecy this season you'd see that efficiency go up tre further into the shot clock we go (probably with a dip at the end as we get into desperation heave territory). I bet you'd see the opposite for last season's team.
And I think Ayo v. Dee is a much worthier discussion. I lean Ayo but it's close.
Well this is fun. My two cents: Dee was a superior off the ball guard and one of the best, disruptive defense forces I have ever seen on the perimeter. He struggled a bit as the lead guard in Weber’s offense (shooting percentages fell greatly). His talent is a player is somewhat conflated with the success the program had while he was here, which was a byproduct of excellent teams featuring Dee, not necessarily Dee being a singular talent on said teams. That said, he was and is one of the best to ever suit up for the program, one of the best teammates ever, and a guy who played his role in a three guard offense to perfection.
skyIdub
Winged Warrior
To me the biggest difference between Ayo and Dee is the head coach and direction of our program.
Dee was clearly more outgoing than Ayo, but today's social world is much different. It's not hard to imagine what could have been with regards to recruiting and program sustainability on the back of Dee/Deron/Luther with a different (current) flavor of head coach/AD.
Dee was clearly more outgoing than Ayo, but today's social world is much different. It's not hard to imagine what could have been with regards to recruiting and program sustainability on the back of Dee/Deron/Luther with a different (current) flavor of head coach/AD.
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