Illini Basketball 2021-2022
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Checked the Illini stats because I was curious too.
This year it looks Hawkins has 28 TO in 241 minutes played. That is 4.65 TO/40 min.
Last year it looks like he had 6 TO in 157 minutes played. That is 1.53 TO/40min.
A couple things probably should be noted:
- Last years team had two high usage rate guys in Ayo and Belo. The ball in win their hands very often. Trent was the "emergency" ball handler.
- This years team has proven to lack the primary ball handlers with Belo out. Coleman has, at times, brought the ball up, been a big component of the teams press break (or lack of it), and at the very least, has done far more ball handling than he did last year.
I believe I have heard on a few occasions that one of the selling points to Hawkins was a chance to play the "3" spot and do some ball-handling. He seems to handle the ball well and pass well when we put him in the scope of a "4" or a small ball "5" but when put in the scope of being a true wing, that skill might be lessened.
When he gets out in space, his height to see over defenders is a huge asset but he also doesn't appear to have the handles or quick first step to get past "twitchier" wings. The high/low entry pass can also get a little lazy/telegraphed at times. I tend to always think that could be quicker but I also think the offense currently is "pound it to Kofi or shoot a 3". It is very limited in terms of wings who can attack off the dribble. Coleman and Damonte are not exactly shooting the lights out which allows defenders to cheat some when either of them catch the ball. They know that both are more than likely looking to get the ball to Kofi.
Have you ever watched an NBA game?
College and NBA are apples and oranges but I'll bite.
How many back to the basket big men are in the NBA right now? And how many of them are their team's primary option on offense? And of these hypothetical teams who play through their big bruising center, how many of them are in the upper half of the NBA in tempo?
Podz needs to play more, no question about it. We need another ball handler in the line up. I know Underwood has said it is about matchups but Podz can be a scoring option as well. We need him to play, we need him to be an option for B1G play. I am not saying he needs to be playing 20 minutes a game, I am just saying he needs some tick.
I don't see how anyone can say Coleman has not taken a big step up. You finally said he played good defense the last couple games. He did a super job against Harper and Murray (2 of the best offensive players in the Big Ten). This from a guy that hardly played last year. I would say that is quite a step up. I do think he needs to improve his offense. We will not reach our goals without him.
This just in, I'd still pay money to see prime TF vs prime Dee play 1v1. I don't think the margin is nearly as big (if at all) as us old-timers like to think. TF isn't as quick straight-line as Dee was, but he's also bigger and IMO has a bigger scoring bag. Defensively, both are/were truly elite ballhawks. It'd be interesting, is all I'm saying.
Regardless. I think these guys are are going to really take teams apart by mid-January. We barely lost the TO metric against AZ, and that's being down two guys who would've been primary ballhandlers if healthy. I think losing Hutch from the rotation has screwed things up (not as much as Belo) in the rotation that BU would've preferred, but they're finding ways to adjust. It'll click.
Regardless. I think these guys are are going to really take teams apart by mid-January. We barely lost the TO metric against AZ, and that's being down two guys who would've been primary ballhandlers if healthy. I think losing Hutch from the rotation has screwed things up (not as much as Belo) in the rotation that BU would've preferred, but they're finding ways to adjust. It'll click.
pruman91
- Paducah, Ky
Dee vs. Trent would be a defensive tug of war ......big time.................2 ELITE defenders..........kinda like Rock'em Sock'em Robots ........lol
I definitely agree. What my post was trying to get at was just because people had possibly unreasonable expectations for Hawk this year, not having met those doesn’t mean he hasn’t taken a step forward. His growth or success shouldn’t be measured against some of the crazy off-season projections some posters made for him. Where he is at right now is about where I thought he’d be. As I said, just about all his stats are up. But he has areas in which he needs to improve as you have pointed out. I certainly agree that he is too loose with the ball. And though he’s not shooting a huge amount of them, I’d like to see him limit has 3-point shots even more. I think in time that can become an important part of his game, but he’s not there and we have enough deep threats. Concentrate on getting to the hoop and a mid-range game for now.
I don't think your hypothesis is valid. Last season we frequently played through Kofi and were in the upper quartile of tempo nationally and second in the conference. At any rate, I think playing slower is hurting our offense, and is especially hurting Kofi. When we were at our best last year (i.e. during the second half of the conference season) we had Curbelo pushing the ball and Ayo and others running the wings aggressively on every possession to great effect.
I think there's a distinction between playing fast and playing at a high tempo. It's my opinion that you should always play fast, meaning that you get folks down the floor quickly, and once you're in your half-court set, players should move quickly with a goal of making every move a potential attack on the basket. You can do the latter even if you play at a slow tempo, it just means that you're walking the ball up the floor but then attacking once you get there.
On Saturday, we saw the offense bog down when they stopped attacking, which is almost always going to happen. I like see a faster tempo just because I think there's a tendency for guys to not attack once you slow it down. But for Kofi specifically, I think he's really hurt when we don't have the guys running the wings and finding a way to be a threat to score. If Grandison or Williams busts it down the floor and gets to the corner ready to shoot, his man can't leave him to help deny the entry to Kofi. What we saw on Saturday is the Arizona press slowing us down, and when we finally got into our offense they were able to cheat off of guys who weren't threatening to score to help on Kofi. That led to things like Kofi not being able to establish position very far down the lane, and Plummer lobbing in easily disrupted passes to him at the free throw line. Kofi didn't get the ball where he could score, and Arizona got bucket after bucket going the other way after a steal.
I get why they're trying to play slower right now because of personnel issues, the inability to attack the press, and so on. But even earlier this year I didn't see the guys on the wing really hustling down the court when Curbelo had the ball, which really hurt us. Curbelo didn't show good judgement in waiting for the play to develop, and there wasn't any space for him to play in for the most part. He's got to learn when to stop and when to go, but it really looked to me like he was expecting his teammates to be playing fast and they weren't. Everything about this offense will be better if all five guys are working to create space for themselves, for Kofi, and for Curbelo.
tl;dr, "playing fast" doesn't mean getting down the floor and chucking it while Kofi is just crossing half court, though I do think you take a good shot in transition whenever you can even if you're starting Kareem and have Wilt, Russell, and Walton on the bench. But good teams play fast, even if they play slow.
I vote for mixing it up...run interspersed with half court.
We really dont have to be totally predictable on offense or defense...changing pace and sets is good, we should try it more...
To me, what you're talking about dbev is decisiveness. Get up the floor into the offense and if you have the shot, shoot it, if not then move it. Don't hesitate. Run when the opportunity presents itself. I agree, we can do that and will get better at that throughout the year, I think.
Let me elaborate on where I'm coming from. Someone mentioned earlier, BU's desire to score within 7 or 8 seconds of the shot clock. I don't think we can do that, IF our offense is predicated on feeding Kofi in the post. Playing through Kofi requires him to first get position. Then, our guards need to find the correct angle to deliver a post entry pass. This often requires the ball to move around the perimeter a little bit. Then, if Kofi does get the ball, he has to execute his move or kick it back out. This process takes a ton of time in basketball years. And I just don't think it's compatible with the 7 second offense. I think as long as our offense flows through Kofi, you're going to see a more deliberate pace of play.. which is to say, we probably won't crack top 50 in tempo.
Let me elaborate on where I'm coming from. Someone mentioned earlier, BU's desire to score within 7 or 8 seconds of the shot clock. I don't think we can do that, IF our offense is predicated on feeding Kofi in the post. Playing through Kofi requires him to first get position. Then, our guards need to find the correct angle to deliver a post entry pass. This often requires the ball to move around the perimeter a little bit. Then, if Kofi does get the ball, he has to execute his move or kick it back out. This process takes a ton of time in basketball years. And I just don't think it's compatible with the 7 second offense. I think as long as our offense flows through Kofi, you're going to see a more deliberate pace of play.. which is to say, we probably won't crack top 50 in tempo.
I mean, maybe. Thing about basketball offenses or 'systems' is that there are usually multiple stages to them. Ideally, your first choice is to get out and beat the defense down the court for an easy bucket. Then you look for an early action to attack the d before it gets set. And then you run your half court set. If 'playing through Kofi' means he has to touch the ball every time and he initiates every set we run on offense, then yes, you can't run and do that as well. But there's no reason why you can't look for early offense and then get Kofi his touches. And as I described above, I think it's actually easier to get him the ball where he needs it, and without an immediate double-team, if you first try to get a good shot out of your early offense. It's what we did last year and Kofi still scored 17 a game.
Trent Frazier career #s: 11.4 pts, 2.4 rbs, 2.6 ast, 1.3 stl, 38.8 fg%, 35.8 3pt%
Dee Brown career #s: 13.2 pts, 3.3 rbs, 4.9 ast, 1.7 stl, 42.2 fg%, 36.0 3pt%
I bolded the higher number in each category, which was super easy. Because Dee's numbers were better in every category. I love Trent too, but why try and bolster him by diminishing an all-time great Illini?
I love Dee, and I love Trent. They will both go down as all time fan favorites and Illini greats. But I think some posters are suffering from recency bias when it comes to Trent.
Trent will need to finish this season with a dozen “Arizona” games and another half dozen in the post season to reach Dee Brown status
Trent will need to finish this season with a dozen “Arizona” games and another half dozen in the post season to reach Dee Brown status
This is all well-stated, and true, but I think our lack of success in half-court offense in one game against a lengthy Arizona team perfectly suited to defend a half-court offense, is coloring our judgment a bit on what kind of team we are. We were a good transition team last year because of Ayo, possibly the best transition player in all of college basketball last season. We were a bad half-court team because Kofi couldn't pass out of the post. We no longer have Ayo, and Kofi can pass the ball now. Against Rutgers and Iowa, our half-court game looked a lot more potent than our transition game. I think we may be better off, in most (but maybe not all) situations, slowing things down a bit this season.
The Galloping Ghost
- Washington, DC
So I can't believe I'm diving back into this, but it's a long time before we have another game. I get what you're saying, @LostinNebraska, they both are/were solid defenders. Though, Dee was Defensive Player of the Year in the B1G, an accolade Trent longs to have, but thus far, hasn't been able to achieve.
I guess for me, there are two areas that Trent just doesn't quite match up to Dee. First, it's consistency. Dee brought it every night. For as good as Trent can be, there are stretches, and even whole games, where he disappears. We needed Trent in the second half, but after the nuclear first, he was nowhere to be found. He says it's because of the double team, but his assists, or lack thereof, don't show a guy that adjusted well. Not only was he not even attempting shots, but he wasn't making any assists either.
This brings me to my second area. Dee was a drastically better facilitator and it's not even close. The point guard position is Trent's right now. We desperately need him to be the guy that runs our offense and unfortunately, he's not doing it as well as we need. His handles aren't quite good enough. His ability to spot the open man isn't what you want from a high-end starting point guard. Meanwhile, Dee averaged 4.9 assists for his career, and his senior year, he averaged 5.8. Plus, Dee's handles were absolutely outstanding. If we had him right now teams wouldn't even attempt to press us because Dee would split it and grab an easy layup or assist. Again, there's a reason he won the Cousey Award his senior year. He was the best point guard in college basketball. If Trent were that, we win this game.
Again, I LOVE Trent. I hope by the end of this season we're cutting down the nets and I'm eating my words.
I guess for me, there are two areas that Trent just doesn't quite match up to Dee. First, it's consistency. Dee brought it every night. For as good as Trent can be, there are stretches, and even whole games, where he disappears. We needed Trent in the second half, but after the nuclear first, he was nowhere to be found. He says it's because of the double team, but his assists, or lack thereof, don't show a guy that adjusted well. Not only was he not even attempting shots, but he wasn't making any assists either.
This brings me to my second area. Dee was a drastically better facilitator and it's not even close. The point guard position is Trent's right now. We desperately need him to be the guy that runs our offense and unfortunately, he's not doing it as well as we need. His handles aren't quite good enough. His ability to spot the open man isn't what you want from a high-end starting point guard. Meanwhile, Dee averaged 4.9 assists for his career, and his senior year, he averaged 5.8. Plus, Dee's handles were absolutely outstanding. If we had him right now teams wouldn't even attempt to press us because Dee would split it and grab an easy layup or assist. Again, there's a reason he won the Cousey Award his senior year. He was the best point guard in college basketball. If Trent were that, we win this game.
Again, I LOVE Trent. I hope by the end of this season we're cutting down the nets and I'm eating my words.
Meh, I agree generally on the assists and offensive consistency but defensively, it's a push statistically (I'm not bored enough to go dig into the comp for DPOY in 05... Yet. It's a long week). My eyeballs say Trent has been asked to guard a wider variety of positions (probably because he's like 2" and 20 lbs bigger than Dee, and that's being generous). Leadership wise, I think it would be hard to say - Dee had more career success but inherited a program in a much much better spot than TF did early on.
We really have been blessed with some amazing guards over the years.
We really have been blessed with some amazing guards over the years.
Defense is hard to quantify statistically, but fwiw Dee was worth 2.7 defensive win shares his Senior year. Trent's best season (last year) was worth 1.7 defensive win shares. In case you were wondering, that's less than Dee's "worst" season (2.0 in 2003-04). Dee also ranks 1st in Illinois history and 8th in the Big Ten all-time in steals. I hardly think its a push statistically. You might say the stats don't paint the whole picture, but the picture they do paint says both are very good defenders, but Dee was better.
Also, Bruce Douglas would like a word with you.
lstewart53x3
- Scottsdale, Arizona
Based purely on impact on their team without diving too deep into stats or position, using recent history examples, I put Trent in that same category as a Malcom Hill or Demetri McCamey. Whereas, I put Dee Brown into that next tier along with guys like Frank Williams & Ayo.
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