Illini Basketball 2023-2024

BretMyBeachHouse · Jul 8, 2023

FrankNitty30 said:
No he most certainly did not. He hit a whole other level in the pros. He was not a borderline pro after his sophomore year. He SHOT up the draft boards when he went in and did individual workouts.

Deron Williams was awesome!! But, a very good scout, made a very good call on just how good Deron would become once he got rid of the pudge. All of that happened in the pros.

This is crazy stuff. He absolutely was in the NBA sights after the 2004 season. The Cincinnati game in particular showed people what he was capable of. He was an All-American. We had an incredible season and Williams demonstrated throughout what a heady player he was.

It didn't "all happen in the pros". Did you sleep through the 2005 season?

The Galloping Ghost · Jul 8, 2023

BretMyBeachHouse said:
This is crazy stuff. He absolutely was in the NBA sights after the 2004 season. The Cincinnati game in particular showed people what he was capable of. He was an All-American. We had an incredible season and Williams demonstrated throughout what a heady player he was.

It didn't "all happen in the pros". Did you sleep through the 2005 season?

I'll add to this, Deron as a sophomore was All-Big Ten 1st team, All-Big Ten Tournament 1st team, led the conference in assists, and, just for fun, was 8th in the conference in scoring (averaging more than Dee). In his junior year, he was All-Big Ten 1st team, a consensus second-team All-American, and, oh yeah, led the entire NCAA in assists. What in the world are we talking about here? Yeah, Deron had a really solid pro career, but he was an absolute star in college. This conversation is insane.

illinitiger · Jul 8, 2023

ChiefGritty said:
Well last year's point guards completely sunk the team, so....

The situation at the 1 is catastrophic and if it's not remedied we are going to be fatally less than the sum of our parts next year.

Ty Rodgers is a very promising player, but the idea of him as a point guard will survive contact with reality exactly as long as every other non-guard who people pretend can fulfill those duties because they have good passing vision.

More total make-believe.

I dunno man, it's an absolutely shocking failure of team building. I literally cannot believe we will go into the season like this, there's just no way a proper 1 isn't added to this roster.

Tye probably offers more reliability and "real" hope at PG than Sky or Curbelo offered the last 2 years.

the national · Jul 9, 2023

Ryllini said:
Not Illini related and obviously stolen, but this is hilarious.
Bob Hughins walking back into WVU practice.View attachment 27134

This story is hilarious to me
(that Seinfeld episode nails it )

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1677853009496113152

fulton steamer · Jul 9, 2023

PIT_ILL said:
Eh Chris Paul was and probably still is the best pg from that draft class

Shut up, shut up, shut up!

PasadenaIllini · Jul 9, 2023

PIT_ILL said:
Eh Chris Paul was and probably still is the best pg from that draft class

Either you're being intentionally obtuse (trolling?) or unintentionally obtuse. Deron absolutely dominated that matchup when Wake played Illinois. Yeah, Paul had the better pro career, but there's no doubt who the better college player was.

doowink · Jul 9, 2023

the national said:
This story is hilarious to me
(that Seinfeld episode nails it )

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1677853009496113152

My name is Sue.....How do you do????

Big Jack · Jul 9, 2023

the national said:
This story is hilarious to me
(that Seinfeld episode nails it )

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1677853009496113152

PIT_ILL · Jul 9, 2023

PasadenaIllini said:
Either you're being intentionally obtuse (trolling?) or unintentionally obtuse. Deron absolutely dominated that matchup when Wake played Illinois. Yeah, Paul had the better pro career, but there's no doubt who the better college player was.

False. Illinois dominated Wake but Deron and Chris were actually pretty even. Deron had more assist but more turnovers. They were pretty close on points. Neither shot particularly well (Deron was 0/4 on 3s.). For Paul to be on a very hostile court and to play Deron even says a lot.
Wake @ Illinois

Also Paul came in second in the Cousy voting (to Felton) where Deron wasn't a finalist. Paul was a higher rated recruit, had a similar college season, had a better first 5 years in the pros, and a clearly better long term career in the pros.

Both were great players. Not taking anything away from Deron.

Grandpa · Jul 9, 2023

PIT_ILL said:
False. Illinois dominated Wake but Deron and Chris were actually pretty even. Deron had more assist but more turnovers. They were pretty close on points. Neither shot particularly well (Deron was 0/4 on 3s.). For Paul to be on a very hostile court and to play Deron even says a lot.
Wake @ Illinois

Also Paul came in second in the Cousy voting (to Felton) where Deron wasn't a finalist. Paul was a higher rated recruit, had a similar college season, had a better first 5 years in the pros, and a clearly better long term career in the pros.

Both were great players. Not taking anything away from Deron.

Oh huh

PepeSilvia · Jul 9, 2023

PasadenaIllini said:
Either you're being intentionally obtuse (trolling?) or unintentionally obtuse. Deron absolutely dominated that matchup when Wake played Illinois. Yeah, Paul had the better pro career, but there's no doubt who the better college player was.

Anyone can simply watch Deron take over the last 4 minutes of the elite 8 game vs Arizona and understand that he's the best player in Illini history and was the best college PG that year.

Emerson Bigguns · Jul 9, 2023

PasadenaIllini said:
Either you're being intentionally obtuse (trolling?) or unintentionally obtuse. Deron absolutely dominated that matchup when Wake played Illinois. Yeah, Paul had the better pro career, but there's no doubt who the better college player was.

The numbers don’t back it up. Paul scored more, and was more efficient doing so. In the head to head matchup they were pretty even. (CP3 was a soph. DW a Jr) Rodger Powell dominated that game, they also got a combined 7, 3 pointers from Head & McBride. The entire Illini starting lineup went on to play in the NBA. CP3 was the only Wake player from that season to make the NBA. We were simply a much better team. That was what was so great about that year. We weren’t a one man show. The pieces all fit, and they played extremely well together.
Chris Paul is one of the 50 greatest basketball players of all time. There are only a couple dozen guys in the history of the game that you could say are definitely better. All those guys have gold jackets and are among the best players to ever bounce an orange ball.
Deron was really close to as good as CP3 for a number of years, but by any objective measure never eclipsed him.
What people fail to acknowledge is that being close to as good as CP3 is still incredibly good.

BretMyBeachHouse · Jul 9, 2023

PIT_ILL said:
False. Illinois dominated Wake but Deron and Chris were actually pretty even. Deron had more assist but more turnovers. They were pretty close on points. Neither shot particularly well (Deron was 0/4 on 3s.). For Paul to be on a very hostile court and to play Deron even says a lot.
Wake @ Illinois

Also Paul came in second in the Cousy voting (to Felton) where Deron wasn't a finalist. Paul was a higher rated recruit, had a similar college season, had a better first 5 years in the pros, and a clearly better long term career in the pros.

Both were great players. Not taking anything away from Deron.

A few points. I think Deron had first half foul trouble and limited minutes in the Wake game. I may not remember that correctly.

Also, it's really hard to quantify Deron's ability to lead that team irrespective of points and assists. It's what made it special and why Weber had a hard time replicating it.

Also, I think their careers would have been comparable had it not been for injuries.

Also, I think Deron not being a finalist in part is because of Dee. Sharing PG duties reduced some numbers.

Inarguable that CP had the better career.

State of Chicago · Jul 9, 2023

PIT_ILL said:
False. Illinois dominated Wake but Deron and Chris were actually pretty even. Deron had more assist but more turnovers. They were pretty close on points. Neither shot particularly well (Deron was 0/4 on 3s.). For Paul to be on a very hostile court and to play Deron even says a lot.
Wake @ Illinois

Also Paul came in second in the Cousy voting (to Felton) where Deron wasn't a finalist. Paul was a higher rated recruit, had a similar college season, had a better first 5 years in the pros, and a clearly better long term career in the pros.

Both were great players. Not taking anything away from Deron.

FrankNitty30 · Jul 9, 2023

Keisersose said:
Deron got rid of the “pudge” when he broke his jaw while at Illinois. And he knew way before the “nba workouts” that he was going pro.

No. Jr year Deron looks NOTHING like Pro Deron. Nothing.

He may have known he was going pro. EVERYONE knew he was going pro. But it was a scout with the vision of where he was going to get to that pushed him to 3rd.

FrankNitty30 · Jul 9, 2023

BretMyBeachHouse said:
A few points. I think Deron had first half foul trouble and limited minutes in the Wake game. I may not remember that correctly.

Also, it's really hard to quantify Deron's ability to lead that team irrespective of points and assists. It's what made it special and why Weber had a hard time replicating it.

Also, I think their careers would have been comparable had it not been for injuries.

Also, I think Deron not being a finalist in part is because of Dee. Sharing PG duties reduced some numbers.

Inarguable that CP had the better career.

He sat most of the first half.

FrankNitty30 · Jul 9, 2023

BretMyBeachHouse said:
This is crazy stuff. He absolutely was in the NBA sights after the 2004 season. The Cincinnati game in particular showed people what he was capable of. He was an All-American. We had an incredible season and Williams demonstrated throughout what a heady player he was.

It didn't "all happen in the pros". Did you sleep through the 2005 season?

You are missing my point. I am not arguing that Deron was not a very good basketball player at Illinois, or that he was not going to go pro.

He was not NEAR as good at Illinois, as he was once he got into the pros. He was not on the radar for a top 5 pick, until a scout believed in what a fit slimmed down version of Deron could be.

Deron was an all-time great Illini. It is not blasphemous to say that he got ridiculously better in the NBA as he transformed his body.

BretMyBeachHouse · Jul 9, 2023

FrankNitty30 said:
He was not NEAR as good at Illinois, as he was once he got into the pros.

You know who else this is true for? Michael Jordan. And pretty much every hall of fame basketball player.

It wasn't true of Danny Ferry and a bunch of busts.

What exactly is your point? He improved? No kidding.

FrankNitty30 said:
He was not on the radar for a top 5 pick, until a scout believed in what a fit slimmed down version of Deron could be.

Multiple scouts felt this way all season. It's not like he was projected to be #25 and all of a sudden Jerry Sloan made him 3. He was a lottery, pretty much all year, and certainly by January everyone had him in the lottery.

foby · Jul 9, 2023

This is awesome. So if I'm understanding correctly, Deron is planning to come back for his last season when the NCAA makes that a thing.

FrankNitty30 · Jul 9, 2023

BretMyBeachHouse said:
You know who else this is true for? Michael Jordan. And pretty much every hall of fame basketball player.

It wasn't true of Danny Ferry and a bunch of busts.

What exactly is your point? He improved? No kidding.

Multiple scouts felt this way all season. It's not like he was projected to be #25 and all of a sudden Jerry Sloan made him 3. He was a lottery, pretty much all year, and certainly by January everyone had him in the lottery.

Yes everyone should improve.

But the whole point of this was best players at Illinois.

My opinion is Frank Williams.

Then people threw out Deron Williams.

My opinion is that too many people equate Pro Deron, who was an absolute stud, with college Deron who was very good.

His improvement in the NBA was considerably different from Michael’s.

Deron changed his body which enhanced his
already very good skill set.

By January he may have been cracking some lottery talks. But the assertion was that after the Cincinnati game the year before he was going to be the 3rd pick (my hyperbole) the next year. Not true. He was a solid lottery to mid 1st round choice heading into 2004-2005.

Utah made an incredible pick and Deron at his height was EVERY bit as good as Chris Paul, and my assertion is that Deron was better.

But, to the original point of this whole debate. College Deron was not as good as College Frank Williams.

WyattEarp · Jul 9, 2023

PepeSilvia said:
Anyone can simply watch Deron take over the last 4 minutes of the elite 8 game vs Arizona and understand that he's the best player in Illini history and was the best college PG that year.

Well, I suppose they could but it probably helps a great deal if you happen to be an unbiased Illini fan. Like we all clearly all are.

pruman91 · Jul 9, 2023

FrankNitty30 said:
He sat most of the first half.

early foul trouble..................................

Icy veins · Jul 9, 2023

BretMyBeachHouse · Jul 9, 2023

FrankNitty30 said:
Yes everyone should improve.

But the whole point of this was best players at Illinois.

My opinion is Frank Williams.

Then people threw out Deron Williams.

My opinion is that too many people equate Pro Deron, who was an absolute stud, with college Deron who was very good.

His improvement in the NBA was considerably different from Michael’s.

Deron changed his body which enhanced his
already very good skill set.

By January he may have been cracking some lottery talks. But the assertion was that after the Cincinnati game the year before he was going to be the 3rd pick (my hyperbole) the next year. Not true. He was a solid lottery to mid 1st round choice heading into 2004-2005.

Utah made an incredible pick and Deron at his height was EVERY bit as good as Chris Paul, and my assertion is that Deron was better.

But, to the original point of this whole debate. College Deron was not as good as College Frank Williams.

I don't know of anyone who made the claim that Deron was lined up to be #3 in the draft after the 2004 season.

A reasonable argument can be made that Deron was better than Frank. I agree with you that I'd take frank over Deron.

Where we part ways is that I don't have to make ludicrous claims about Deron to support my Frank argument.

PIT_ILL · Jul 9, 2023

Emerson Bigguns said:
The numbers don’t back it up. Paul scored more, and was more efficient doing so. In the head to head matchup they were pretty even. (CP3 was a soph. DW a Jr) Rodger Powell dominated that game, they also got a combined 7, 3 pointers from Head & McBride. The entire Illini starting lineup went on to play in the NBA. CP3 was the only Wake player from that season to make the NBA. We were simply a much better team. That was what was so great about that year. We weren’t a one man show. The pieces all fit, and they played extremely well together.
Chris Paul is one of the 50 greatest basketball players of all time. There are only a couple dozen guys in the history of the game that you could say are definitely better. All those guys have gold jackets and are among the best players to ever bounce an orange ball.
Deron was really close to as good as CP3 for a number of years, but by any objective measure never eclipsed him.
What people fail to acknowledge is that being close to as good as CP3 is still incredibly good.

Exactly. Paul is like top 10 all time in the NBA in Win Shares. Outside of Illini fan circles this isn't really a discussion. Deron could be exceptional and not be on the same level.