Illinois 88, Missouri 63 Postgame

EyeoftheIllini said:

Great to see the team hitting on all cylinders. Fun win to watch.

Question for all those with intense hatred of Missouri. Did you grow up in southern or central Illinois? I ask because I grew up in Chicago burbs and, while I certainly like to win Braggin’ Rights game, I just don’t have the same hatred for MO that I have for say other teams like Indiana. I’d put IU, Iowa, Purdue, UM, MSU, any top 25 team, and any team Bruce Pearl coaches as teams I want the Illini to beat more than Missouri. So I’m wondering if this hatred was bred into people because of where they group up? Again, don’t get me wrong, beating MO is great and gets better each year.

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So, having gotten this game out of the way, here is my question. Should we (or rather, the Illini) really continue with the Braggin' Rights game with Missouri? Or should the Illini start looking for a better Braggin' Rights rival (and I don't mean start playing a different team in St. Louis)? I ask this hypothetically since I doubt there is any plan in the near future to discontinue the game. And there still seems to be a lot of passion from the fans. And there is an argument to be made about playing a game in St. Louis (not to mention the money that comes into St. Louis from fans,etc.). But let me elucidate. The following is just a jumble of random thoughts hoping to support this proposal.

First, Illinois is pretty much dominating the series. Not as much as I wish as it seems that the lesser team often wins anyway (Illinois should have won last year). There are two w/l statistics. There is the total w/l record of 33-19 (63%) but that includes games going all the way back to 1932. The official Braggin' Rights games started in 1980. Since that time the Illini lead the series 26-15 (63%). It could be argued to include the games played every year from 1976 to 1979 which probably engendered the Braggin' Rights creation in the first place. If those are included the w/l record is 28-17 (62%). I think that winning almost 2 out of every 3 games is dominance. (hopefully I did the math correctly).

Second, Illinois is arguably just a bigger basketball college than Missouri. I haven't done the research but I guess that Illinois has more NCAA tournament appearances, wins, conference titles, etc. It is one of the top 20 (maybe even top 10) winningest (is that a word) basketball programs ever (I think I read that somewhere). Missouri just isn't in the same class overall as Illinois.

Third, Norm Stewart. It seems that the series was at its best during the Norm Stewart years (1976 to 1998). During the years he coached Missouri the w/l record was 13-9, not much better for Missouri, Illinois still dominated (59%) but there seemed to be more intensity, more hype, more at stake than just winning the game. After Stewart left, Missouri fell on hard times for the most part. We had the Groce years but Illinois has recovered from those dark times while Missouri is in a death spiral (citing Rob McColley article).

Fourth Media. Weren't those early games nationally televised? I think one can see how the importance of this game fell as the years went on from being a big game on national tv to now being shown on BTN (in fact, wasn't it only available on BTN+ one year?). I am not sure if Missouri fans could even see the game yesterday if they did not have BTN.

And finally, take a look at Rob McColley article especially the last paragraph. He doesn't come right out and say it but you can kind of read between the lines.

https://www.illinoisloyalty.com/post/illinois-88-missouri-63-postgame.27659/

So with the Illini's dominance, the different traditions at both schools, the gradual lessening of the importance of this game perhaps Illinois should look elsewhere for a "Braggin' Rights" rival. I have no idea who but maybe something like playing Kentucky in Louisville (that would probably irk Louisville fans). Or maybe playing Louisville. Just putting those out as examples. I imagine that Kentucky might consider us the way I rate Missouri to Illinois.

Just my 2 cents

So glad we played our game and didn’t play down to our competition, as it felt like we did the previous 3 years. Obviously Kofi Trent Plummer and Grandi were terrific. Here are my other takeaways for how the rest of the team is progressing:

1. Coleman- thought this was his best game in a while. Played more under control, with more confidence and was more active on the boards. He is certainly capable of more but will take 5 points, 4 rebounds and 2 assists in 18 minutes every night. A couple more silly touch fouls and 2 turnovers is probably still too many given his usage but definitely trending in the right direction. If I were on the staff, my biggest takeaway for him on d would be to quit slapping, and on o when he drives just go up with it rather than trying to pass. Even if he misses on his drive, he’s pulled the defense over and 80%+ chance Kofi gets the rebound and cleans it up easily. Probably the higher percentage play than trying to thread the needle through all of that traffic.

2. Frosh are coming along nicely. I love Melendez’ feel and Podz is playing with so much confidence. I loved his rebound and putback even more than his 3. And Goode was solid as always. If those 3 continue to progress and can contribute in conference play would be huge. All 3 are 6’6 or better and really give us some size on the wing that we are currently lacking.

3. Verdonk- thought he bodied up Brown really well and I think he’s the best Kofi feeder on the team. Not an offensive threat but contributing more than I thought as a physical 4. A nice piece we have been missing.

4. Payne- obviously still struggling. I feel for him as I think he had his best energy tonight although it didn’t show up on the score sheet. Didn’t get a rebound but was really active on the glass and kept several balls alive. On offense, of course he needs to be stronger with the ball but also feel like he was really unlucky tonight. He was stripped/blocked probably 3-4 times and that felt like maybe the 3-4 best defensive plays Mizzou made all night. Sort of reminded me of a slumping hitter who goes 0-4 but with 3 hard line-outs. I get that he didn’t have it tonight but wish Brad would have given him some more tick. He’s not going to figure it out on the bench. I just hope he doesn’t lose his confidence and continues to bring the energy he brought tonight. If he does he will break through eventually. There are going to be games where we will need him and I hope he can get to a point he can provide us a burst like Giorgi against OSU in the BIG championship.

Glad we have one more tune up game. Defense still needs to get better but if it continues to improve and we get Belo back I still maintain we have as high a ceiling as anyone in the country.

Warren Carter Fanclub said:

Don't want to be Debbie Downer but is he still penciled in as our starting center next year?

What happens THIS year in a tough Big 10 game on the road and Kofi gets 2 ticky tack fouls in the first 5 minutes?

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No he’s not. I think Hawkins should start at the 5 next year.

I have more faith in Hawkins and BBV at this point.

jrichisamazing said:

I was just checking out Mizzou's future and man it looks bleak. The highest rated player in their current freshman class is #166 on 247. That Brazile kid looks like he could be a steal...was a 185 rating. But will he even want to stick around through the dumpster fire?

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A quality new head coach + the transfer portal can lead to a decently quick turnaround. But they need to find the right guy, and invest in keeping him. I have no idea who that is.

Chad Fleck said:

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Kofi dunked this ball without a dribble.


Then he did it from here.

Lots of fun to watch the Illini win last night. Can’t get too excited over beating Mizzou though. Pretty sure the win qualifies as a Quad 4 victory. Shocking that any team in a P5 conference would be a quad 4 opportunity when playing on a neutral court.

RE: The rivalry/hate thing, Mizzou is our best rivalry on paper. IU has Purdue, Iowa has Iowa State, the Michigan schools have each other, NU has historically been a footnote, etc. I have hated growing up lacking a truly traditional rivalry, with Illini fans just seeming to hate whomever is good and/or close to their geographic location.

The Braggin’ Rights setup is completely unique in college basketball, and I have really embraced it over the years. That’s why it’s our biggest game for me, and for no other reason. I was born in Peoria, grew up in Iowa City and live in Chicago, so it’s not really a geographic thing for me. I also think there’s something better about a non-conference rivalry, as you lose the conference bond and only play one time, making it more of an event.

EyeoftheIllini said:

Question for all those with intense hatred of Missouri. Did you grow up in southern or central Illinois? I ask because I grew up in Chicago burbs and, while I certainly like to win Braggin’ Rights game, I just don’t have the same hatred for MO that I have for say other teams like Indiana. I’d put IU, Iowa, Purdue, UM, MSU, any top 25 team, and any team Bruce Pearl coaches as teams I want the Illini to beat more than Missouri. So I’m wondering if this hatred was bred into people because of where they group up? Again, don’t get me wrong, beating MO is great and gets better each year.

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I moved to St Louis in '96 and went to probably 10 Braggin Rights games in a row, and several of the football games too. All you have to do is attend one, and you'll understand. This year probably wasn't a great example, but when the crowd is 50/50 it's the best sporting event of the year.

I married a Mizzou grad, who thankfully isn't a sports fan. She would never say it out loud, but I know she secretly pulls for Illinois to win, because when they lose it makes me Grinchy right before Christmas.

Christmas in Mizzery

EyeoftheIllini said:

Great to see the team hitting on all cylinders. Fun win to watch.

Question for all those with intense hatred of Missouri. Did you grow up in southern or central Illinois? I ask because I grew up in Chicago burbs and, while I certainly like to win Braggin’ Rights game, I just don’t have the same hatred for MO that I have for say other teams like Indiana. I’d put IU, Iowa, Purdue, UM, MSU, any top 25 team, and any team Bruce Pearl coaches as teams I want the Illini to beat more than Missouri. So I’m wondering if this hatred was bred into people because of where they group up? Again, don’t get me wrong, beating MO is great and gets better each year.

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Yes, I grew up in Southern Illinois. And yes, I would say the hatred is bred into me in part due to where I grew up. Mizzou is my public enemy number 1... most of the time. I still h ave a nice healthy hate for Iowa, Indiana, Michigan. My dislike of Purdue is less than those three. I didn't really have a problem with MSU until the Ayo debacle. And like any Illini fan, I don't give Northwestern a second thought most of time even though the conference wants to pretend it is some huge rivalry game. They just... exist.

Guest said:

So, having gotten this game out of the way, here is my question. Should we (or rather, the Illini) really continue with the Braggin' Rights game with Missouri? Or should the Illini start looking for a better Braggin' Rights rival (and I don't mean start playing a different team in St. Louis)? I ask this hypothetically since I doubt there is any plan in the near future to discontinue the game. And there still seems to be a lot of passion from the fans. And there is an argument to be made about playing a game in St. Louis (not to mention the money that comes into St. Louis from fans,etc.). But let me elucidate. The following is just a jumble of random thoughts hoping to support this proposal.

First, Illinois is pretty much dominating the series. Not as much as I wish as it seems that the lesser team often wins anyway (Illinois should have won last year). There are two w/l statistics. There is the total w/l record of 33-19 (63%) but that includes games going all the way back to 1932. The official Braggin' Rights games started in 1980. Since that time the Illini lead the series 26-15 (63%). It could be argued to include the games played every year from 1976 to 1979 which probably engendered the Braggin' Rights creation in the first place. If those are included the w/l record is 28-17 (62%). I think that winning almost 2 out of every 3 games is dominance. (hopefully I did the math correctly).

Second, Illinois is arguably just a bigger basketball college than Missouri. I haven't done the research but I guess that Illinois has more NCAA tournament appearances, wins, conference titles, etc. It is one of the top 20 (maybe even top 10) winningest (is that a word) basketball programs ever (I think I read that somewhere). Missouri just isn't in the same class overall as Illinois.

Third, Norm Stewart. It seems that the series was at its best during the Norm Stewart years (1976 to 1998). During the years he coached Missouri the w/l record was 13-9, not much better for Missouri, Illinois still dominated (59%) but there seemed to be more intensity, more hype, more at stake than just winning the game. After Stewart left, Missouri fell on hard times for the most part. We had the Groce years but Illinois has recovered from those dark times while Missouri is in a death spiral (citing Rob McColley article).

Fourth Media. Weren't those early games nationally televised? I think one can see how the importance of this game fell as the years went on from being a big game on national tv to now being shown on BTN (in fact, wasn't it only available on BTN+ one year?). I am not sure if Missouri fans could even see the game yesterday if they did not have BTN.

And finally, take a look at Rob McColley article especially the last paragraph. He doesn't come right out and say it but you can kind of read between the lines.

https://www.illinoisloyalty.com/post/illinois-88-missouri-63-postgame.27659/

So with the Illini's dominance, the different traditions at both schools, the gradual lessening of the importance of this game perhaps Illinois should look elsewhere for a "Braggin' Rights" rival. I have no idea who but maybe something like playing Kentucky in Louisville (that would probably irk Louisville fans). Or maybe playing Louisville. Just putting those out as examples. I imagine that Kentucky might consider us the way I rate Missouri to Illinois.

Just my 2 cents

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1. Prior to last night, Mizzou had won 7 of the last 12 games. I wouldn't necessarily call a 60/40 split "dominating" either.

2. I think Illinois is inarguably a bigger basketball school than Missouri. So is Kansas, but that doesn't stop that rivalry from being one evokes passion from the fans and players.

3. The series continued to be great well after Norm Stewart. It was great until roughly when John Groce took over our program. Maybe even a few years into that. The games were competitive, had high fan interest and ticket sales, and landed on the main ESPN networks. It really was only after John Groce and Kim Anderson destroyed our respective programs that it fell out of being one of those top tier nonconference games. We are one good Mizzou coach away from being a marquee matchup again.

4. I addressed this above, but they were nationally televised until very recently. There is no reason they can't be again if we keep up our resurgence and Mizzou rights the ship. Shoot, even this year, had we kept our top 15 rank, this might have been nationally televised. At any rate, BTN is available on most cable packages these days. It and the SEC network have achieved a level of market saturation that means they are nearly as widely-viewable as ESPN.

Gordon Shumway said:

Kofi dunked this ball without a dribble.
View attachment 13815

Then he did it from here.
View attachment 13816

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The art of the gather step. Perfectly timed on his part in both cases.

MustangWally said:

So, did that satisfy everyone?

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I guess.

CoHawk had his best game in a while last night .........Played with a good BB IQ.....helped on defense , had that acrobatic left handed tip in and made many great passes.....Also , he played more maturely .....I bet BU and Cohawk have had some frank discussions about the right way to represent the Illini culture.....

JMHO

Wanna give a special shoutout to Podz. Kid looked solid as hell. Dudes hit shots on him but he was in great position every time. Fought through one screen like butter. That offensive rebound was not something many freshman do and showed real strength. That 3 was a beauty as was the reverse layup. His passing was crisp and unflinching. He looks dynamic and could be a big x-factor for us this year and beyond.

sacraig said:

Yes, I grew up in Southern Illinois. And yes, I would say the hatred is bred into me in part due to where I grew up. Mizzou is my public enemy number 1... most of the time. I still h ave a nice healthy hate for Iowa, Indiana, Michigan. My dislike of Purdue is less than those three. I didn't really have a problem with MSU until the Ayo debacle. And like any Illini fan, I don't give Northwestern a second thought most of time even though the conference wants to pretend it is some huge rivalry game. They just... exist.



1. Prior to last night, Mizzou had won 7 of the last 12 games. I wouldn't necessarily call a 60/40 split "dominating" either.

2. I think Illinois is inarguably a bigger basketball school than Missouri. So is Kansas, but that doesn't stop that rivalry from being one evokes passion from the fans and players.

3. The series continued to be great well after Norm Stewart. It was great until roughly when John Groce took over our program. Maybe even a few years into that. The games were competitive, had high fan interest and ticket sales, and landed on the main ESPN networks. It really was only after John Groce and Kim Anderson destroyed our respective programs that it fell out of being one of those top tier nonconference games. We are one good Mizzou coach away from being a marquee matchup again.

4. I addressed this above, but they were nationally televised until very recently. There is no reason they can't be again if we keep up our resurgence and Mizzou rights the ship. Shoot, even this year, had we kept our top 15 rank, this might have been nationally televised. At any rate, BTN is available on most cable packages these days. It and the SEC network have achieved a level of market saturation that means they are nearly as widely-viewable as ESPN.

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I basically just threw my post out there for discussion and I was just going to read the responses if any but I thought I need to respond to a few things you took issue with.

First, or 1. You don't think winning 2 out of 3 games is dominance? I guess we will just have to agree to disagree over that. I don't think you can just choose a certain number of years and base anything on that. I could have chosen 1997 to 2008 (12 years) Illinois won 9 out of the 12. Even more dominant but it is just a collection of years and does not really mean anything other than what it is.

2. But just think the utter insanity that would ensue if we started playing a better team, like, Kentucky, if we were to pull that off. I think the fact that last night's game was by some estimates 80 per cent Illinois attendance shows however that Missouri fans don't care much anymore. That is, there was no passion from Missouri fans. Shouldn't there be for both?

3. I think the only way it will become a nationally televised game again is if and when Missouri gets good again. And that isn't going to happen for a while. As Rob said, Missouri is in a death spiral. Martin may be gone after this year which will set them back even more as it usually takes a little while for a new coach to get things back.

4. I base my observation about the inability of the Missouri fans to see the game based on a thread in the Tiger board discussing how to see the game if one does not have BTN. So, apparently it was not on the SEC network either? I don't know. But the thread also mentioned that the SEC network was showing the Missouri football game rather than the basketball game.

Guest said:

I basically just threw my post out there for discussion and I was just going to read the responses if any but I thought I need to respond to a few things you took issue with.

First, or 1. You don't think winning 2 out of 3 games is dominance? I guess we will just have to agree to disagree over that. I don't think you can just choose a certain number of years and base anything on that. I could have chosen 1997 to 2008 (12 years) Illinois won 9 out of the 12. Even more dominant but it is just a collection of years and does not really mean anything other than what it is.

2. But just think the utter insanity that would ensue if we started playing a better team, like, Kentucky, if we were to pull that off. I think the fact that last night's game was by some estimates 80 per cent Illinois attendance shows however that Missouri fans don't care much anymore. That is, there was no passion from Missouri fans. Shouldn't there be for both?

3. I think the only way it will become a nationally televised game again is if and when Missouri gets good again. And that isn't going to happen for a while. As Rob said, Missouri is in a death spiral. Martin may be gone after this year which will set them back even more as it usually takes a little while for a new coach to get things back.

4. I base my observation about the inability of the Missouri fans to see the game based on a thread in the Tiger board discussing how to see the game if one does not have BTN. So, apparently it was not on the SEC network either? I don't know. But the thread also mentioned that the SEC network was showing the Missouri football game rather than the basketball game.

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1. We have a solid lead on wins, that is true, but over its history these games have usually been pretty competitive.

2. I'm fine with scheduling Kentucky, but they're not a rival and there's no big market that's split between us and Kentucky. The whole point of Braggin Rights is that St. Louis, a decent media market (and fertile recruiting ground) is home to many fans of both teams.

3. We've played nationally televised games against teams as bad as Mizzou. If we're a draw, it doesn't matter much how bad they are. Also depends on what else is on of course.

4.Game can't be on both BTN and SEC network. That's not how these tv rights work.

If you want a heaping helping of schadenfreude, check out this running commentary on the game from the Columbia (MO) Tribune last evening. The only bright spot they could summon for Missouri sports was the women's hoops victory. Otherwise it's a relentless posting of sads:

Guest said:

I basically just threw my post out there for discussion and I was just going to read the responses if any but I thought I need to respond to a few things you took issue with.

First, or 1. You don't think winning 2 out of 3 games is dominance? I guess we will just have to agree to disagree over that. I don't think you can just choose a certain number of years and base anything on that. I could have chosen 1997 to 2008 (12 years) Illinois won 9 out of the 12. Even more dominant but it is just a collection of years and does not really mean anything other than what it is.

2. But just think the utter insanity that would ensue if we started playing a better team, like, Kentucky, if we were to pull that off. I think the fact that last night's game was by some estimates 80 per cent Illinois attendance shows however that Missouri fans don't care much anymore. That is, there was no passion from Missouri fans. Shouldn't there be for both?

3. I think the only way it will become a nationally televised game again is if and when Missouri gets good again. And that isn't going to happen for a while. As Rob said, Missouri is in a death spiral. Martin may be gone after this year which will set them back even more as it usually takes a little while for a new coach to get things back.

4. I base my observation about the inability of the Missouri fans to see the game based on a thread in the Tiger board discussing how to see the game if one does not have BTN. So, apparently it was not on the SEC network either? I don't know. But the thread also mentioned that the SEC network was showing the Missouri football game rather than the basketball game.

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1. We've won 63%. That isn't 2/3. That's just as close to 3/5 as it is to 2/3. I would not call that dominance.

2. Last night's game is an anomaly. Mizzou is awful this year and they had a bowl game at the exact same time. Their fans had to pick and most picked the bowl game given how awful their basketball team is right now. Mizzou fans care. Read their message boards (if you can stomach the format). They just care this year less than they do about football given the circumstances. I can't blame them.

3. That's what I already said, but in this era of the transfer portal, a team can get good again very quickly, especially if they have a compelling coaching hire. It wasn't long ago that they had Mike Anderson, who had them playing at a very high level before bolting for Arkansas. Remember, Underwood took us from the nadir of the Groce years to a #1 tournament seed in 4 years.

4. There were an awful lot of people on that board clearly watching, too. BTN doesn't have the reach of ESPN since it is on higher tiers of many cable providers rather than the base package, but it is still available to most people, and if they happen to pay for the higher tiers because they wanted a different sports network, they likely have it even if they don't use it. The game was not on SEC Network because I think the rights alternate each year unless it gets picked up nationally. Even then, the rights may alternate between ESPN and Fox (co-owners of the SEC Network and BTN respectively). You'd have to check on that, though. I'm not sure.

This may not belong here but it doesn't seem as if it needs its own thread. And it refers to our friend Mark Smith who was at Missouri. So, anyway, I found this interesting.

From the Kansas City Star

https://www.kansascity.com/sports/college/big-12/kansas-state/article256736107.html

If he could go back and do things differently, Smith thinks he would have been much better off enrolling at K-State straight out of high school rather than waiting until he was a graduate transfer who had already played one season at Illinois and three more at Missouri. “Being here now, that’s something I think about a lot,” Smith said. “I see how much my game has gotten better and how much I have developed. I am a much better basketball player now than I ever have been before. But at least I’m here now. I’m having a lot of fun.”

Oldskoolkoach said:

Bbv is a tremendous passer, there is your answer

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That cant finish around the hoop either.

RockfordIllini said:

So glad we played our game and didn’t play down to our competition, as it felt like we did the previous 3 years. Obviously Kofi Trent Plummer and Grandi were terrific. Here are my other takeaways for how the rest of the team is progressing:

1. Coleman- thought this was his best game in a while. Played more under control, with more confidence and was more active on the boards. He is certainly capable of more but will take 5 points, 4 rebounds and 2 assists in 18 minutes every night. A couple more silly touch fouls and 2 turnovers is probably still too many given his usage but definitely trending in the right direction. If I were on the staff, my biggest takeaway for him on d would be to quit slapping, and on o when he drives just go up with it rather than trying to pass. Even if he misses on his drive, he’s pulled the defense over and 80%+ chance Kofi gets the rebound and cleans it up easily. Probably the higher percentage play than trying to thread the needle through all of that traffic.

2. Frosh are coming along nicely. I love Melendez’ feel and Podz is playing with so much confidence. I loved his rebound and putback even more than his 3. And Goode was solid as always. If those 3 continue to progress and can contribute in conference play would be huge. All 3 are 6’6 or better and really give us some size on the wing that we are currently lacking.

3. Verdonk- thought he bodied up Brown really well and I think he’s the best Kofi feeder on the team. Not an offensive threat but contributing more than I thought as a physical 4. A nice piece we have been missing.

4. Payne- obviously still struggling. I feel for him as I think he had his best energy tonight although it didn’t show up on the score sheet. Didn’t get a rebound but was really active on the glass and kept several balls alive. On offense, of course he needs to be stronger with the ball but also feel like he was really unlucky tonight. He was stripped/blocked probably 3-4 times and that felt like maybe the 3-4 best defensive plays Mizzou made all night. Sort of reminded me of a slumping hitter who goes 0-4 but with 3 hard line-outs. I get that he didn’t have it tonight but wish Brad would have given him some more tick. He’s not going to figure it out on the bench. I just hope he doesn’t lose his confidence and continues to bring the energy he brought tonight. If he does he will break through eventually. There are going to be games where we will need him and I hope he can get to a point he can provide us a burst like Giorgi against OSU in the BIG championship.

Glad we have one more tune up game. Defense still needs to get better but if it continues to improve and we get Belo back I still maintain we have as high a ceiling as anyone in the country.

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Omar kind of reminds me a little of Earvin Small. Long and lanky with a little trouble with keeping his feet firmly planted. Seems to get bounced around quite a bit. Surprisingly though, Small really blossomed his senior year and provided unexpectedly decent minutes. Hoping the same for Omar.

RE: Missouri Hate

I grew up near Springfield, IL. Also, grew up a Cardinal Fan. I have no ill will towards the people of Missouri. I do like to win the Braggin Rights game though.

I really love the old-school jersey with the cursive "Illinois."

BretMyBeachHouse said:

He'll stick as long as they pay him. This is likely his last head coaching gig. This makes the John Groce era look like John Wooden

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Yeah right. Cuonzo is skilled...at grifting athletic directors. He'll find another sucker.

Chad Fleck said:

RE: Missouri Hate

I grew up near Springfield, IL. Also, grew up a Cardinal Fan. I have no ill will towards the people of Missouri. I do like to win the Braggin Rights game though.

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I have no ill will toward the people of Missouri. Only their favorite university.