Illinois Basketball 2016-2017

89illinigrad · Mar 25, 2016

PerennIaLL said:
Not following that one. Why didn't we come close to making the tournament this year then? Are injuries a valid excuse or not?

The way I look at it is that, without Black, Abrams and Thorne, we had to rely on the play of youngsters (JCL, Finke, AJ, DJW) and previously unproven players (MM), who were not quite ready for primetime and it showed.

Over the course of the season, we saw improvement in these players, both offensively and defensively, and we played a bit better at the end (for example beating Iowa in BTT).

Now, while other teams will be losing players due to graduation and early entry into the NBA, we basically return everyone except Lewis, and potentially add Black, Abrams and Thorne to the mix.

Combine that with a year of weight training for the youngsters, the "sophomore leap", etc.., and we should take a step up next year.

Will that be enough to get us to the dance? I think so. There were a lot of close games that we lost this year that, had we had Black, Abrams and Thorne or more experience coming off the bench, we probably would have won.

illini8507 · Mar 25, 2016

89illinigrad said:
The way I look at it is that, without Black, Abrams and Thorne, we had to rely on the play of youngsters (JCL, Finke, AJ, DJW) and previously unproven players (MM), who were not quite ready for primetime and it showed.

Over the course of the season, we saw improvement in these players, both offensively and defensively, and we played a bit better at the end (for example beating Iowa in BTT).

Now, while other teams will be losing players due to graduation and early entry into the NBA, we basically return everyone except Lewis, and potentially add Black, Abrams and Thorne to the mix.

Combine that with a year of weight training for the youngsters, the "sophomore leap", etc.., and we should take a step up next year.

Will that be enough to get us to the dance? I think so. There were a lot of close games that we lost this year that, had we had Black, Abrams and Thorne or more experience coming off the bench, we probably would have won.

Plus two freshmen (one redshirt) at positions of need

89illinigrad · Mar 25, 2016

Open question to everyone: I think everyone understands that the 2016-17 season is make or break for Groce. Questions is, in your eyes, what is a "make" year and what is a "break" year?

Put another way, what is your stance on Groce under these two scenarios:

He lands a 2017 class of Pickett, Damonte, Tilmon, Goodwin and say Theo John, but misses the tourney. Does he get a pass?

He makes the tourney, but misses out on Tilmon and Goodwin. Is he still safe?

WesterveltVictoryCigar · Mar 25, 2016

89illinigrad said:
Open question to everyone: I think everyone understands that the 2016-17 season is make or break for Groce. Questions is, in your eyes, what is a "make" year and what is a "break" year?

Put another way, what is your stance on Groce under these two scenarios:

He lands a 2017 class of Pickett, Damonte, Tilmon, Goodwin and say Theo John, but misses the tourney. Does he get a pass?

He makes the tourney, but misses out on Tilmon and Goodwin. Is he still safe?

Needs both, IMO.

frozenrope9190 · Mar 25, 2016

89illinigrad said:
Open question to everyone: I think everyone understands that the 2016-17 season is make or break for Groce. Questions is, in your eyes, what is a "make" year and what is a "break" year?

Put another way, what is your stance on Groce under these two scenarios:

He lands a 2017 class of Pickett, Damonte, Tilmon, Goodwin and say Theo John, but misses the tourney. Does he get a pass?

He makes the tourney, but misses out on Tilmon and Goodwin. Is he still safe?

Those are good questions. As long as we can see progress made, in either category. We have to land a big class; I'll be OK missing the tourney if we land the big fishes. I don't know if everyone else will be, though. The tourney to me is a bit arbitrary. How much more successful was Vanderbilt than St. Bonaventure this season? Enough to keep or fire a coach? If we're miles away from the tourney you let him go. But just missing? Just hitting? Is the cut-off that slim? If the goal is to win championships, then getting blown out in a play-in game make you feel better than a #1 seed in the NIT? I dunno.

Joel Goodson · Mar 25, 2016

89illinigrad said:
Open question to everyone: I think everyone understands that the 2016-17 season is make or break for Groce. Questions is, in your eyes, what is a "make" year and what is a "break" year?

Put another way, what is your stance on Groce under these two scenarios:

He lands a 2017 class of Pickett, Damonte, Tilmon, Goodwin and say Theo John, but misses the tourney. Does he get a pass?

He makes the tourney, but misses out on Tilmon and Goodwin. Is he still safe?

First case: Probably. Might depend on our injury situation. Must show good progress. No more off court incidents.

Second case: Yes. Personally, am leaning towards no. Needs to make hay with the '17s.

Groce must produce, on the court and recruiting. And the criminal charges must cease too. Otherwise, he gone. FWLIW, I'm rooting for him.

89illinigrad · Mar 25, 2016

WesterveltVictoryCigar said:
Needs both, IMO.

So, you're saying he needs both a home run class and to make the tourney? Would you be OK if he lands one of Tilmon or Goodwin?

WesterveltVictoryCigar · Mar 25, 2016

89illinigrad said:
So, you're saying he needs both a home run class and to make the tourney? Would you be OK if he lands one of Tilmon or Goodwin?

Yes, missing the tourney 3 times in a row should get you fired, but I'm willing to give him a pass on this season due to all the injuries. Don't know how you can possibly keep him after 4 misses.

I don't really care who's in the class but I'd guess our chances are best with Tilmon and Goodwin. I don't see this staff being able to move up in the conference without improving the talent level on the team, so a top 10/15 class is also a must.

IrishIllini · Mar 25, 2016

WesterveltVictoryCigar said:
Yes, missing the tourney 3 times in a row should get you fired, but I'm willing to give him a pass on this season due to all the injuries. Don't know how you can possibly keep him after 4 misses.

I don't really care who's in the class but I'd guess our chances are best with Tilmon and Goodwin. I don't see this staff being able to move up in the conference without improving the talent level on the team, so a top 10/15 class is also a must.

Agreed. Landing a solid 2017 class would be great, but unless we're in the tourney next year I see no place for Groce at Illinois. Students will have come to Illinois and graduated without seeing the orange and blue in the dance.

:chief:

jrichisamazing · Mar 25, 2016

frozenrope9190 said:
Those are good questions. As long as we can see progress made, in either category. We have to land a big class; I'll be OK missing the tourney if we land the big fishes. I don't know if everyone else will be, though. The tourney to me is a bit arbitrary. How much more successful was Vanderbilt than St. Bonaventure this season? Enough to keep or fire a coach? If we're miles away from the tourney you let him go. But just missing? Just hitting? Is the cut-off that slim? If the goal is to win championships, then getting blown out in a play-in game make you feel better than a #1 seed in the NIT? I dunno.

Agreed. Plus, what if we have a lot of injuries again this year? I wouldn't expect to make the tournament if we're missing half our team again. 2 things that we have to see for Groce to keep his job is a great recruiting class and good improvement from the freshmen plus Finke.

dweebs19 · Mar 25, 2016

I say making the tournament is more important to me than getting that stellar class. I think we have enough talent to make the tournament. If we don't make it again, then he needs to go

WesterveltVictoryCigar · Mar 25, 2016

jrichisamazing said:
Agreed. Plus, what if we have a lot of injuries again this year? I wouldn't expect to make the tournament if we're missing half our team again. 2 things that we have to see for Groce to keep his job is a great recruiting class and good improvement from the freshmen plus Finke.

If we have significant injuries again then you have to let him go because he's obviously cursed.

But seriously, at some point it has to end, right? Last year we lost Abrams plus the Cosby/Rice stuff. This year it's more injuries and more off court issues. Another year of that and he's gone, regardless. Might be more bad luck for him, but you just can't keep going down that road.

Jabber Jabber · Mar 25, 2016

89illinigrad said:
Open question to everyone: I think everyone understands that the 2016-17 season is make or break for Groce. Questions is, in your eyes, what is a "make" year and what is a "break" year?

Put another way, what is your stance on Groce under these two scenarios:

He lands a 2017 class of Pickett, Damonte, Tilmon, Goodwin and say Theo John, but misses the tourney. Does he get a pass?

He makes the tourney, but misses out on Tilmon and Goodwin. Is he still safe?

I'll reiterate a previous post of mine. Make or break doesn't hinge on recruiting for me. Only the season.

Top 7 in the Big Ten and a 10-seed or better in the NCAA tournament.

Greensboro · Mar 25, 2016

89illinigrad said:
Open question to everyone: I think everyone understands that the 2016-17 season is make or break for Groce. Questions is, in your eyes, what is a "make" year and what is a "break" year?

Put another way, what is your stance on Groce under these two scenarios:

He lands a 2017 class of Pickett, Damonte, Tilmon, Goodwin and say Theo John, but misses the tourney. Does he get a pass?

He makes the tourney, but misses out on Tilmon and Goodwin. Is he still safe?

Probably needs both, but I think the recruiting class is the most important, could he get a pass if he nails the 2017 class, but bad luck continues, we just miss tournament but show much improvement, maybe, but you really need to believe in 2017/18 without Hill, Nunn, Mav, Tate, Thorne,... That is putting a lot of pressure on 2017 freshman to perform day 1. Not sure any teams survive losing there top 3 bigs, but bad pg recruiting left us relying on TA last year and again this coming year, so some of our bad luck is recruiting misses. At a minimum we need to add a very good big (Tilmon will do) to Pickett & Williams in 2017, plus find another serviceable big in the class. I think Goodwin is gravy at this point with Williams & Pickett. If we don't reload in 2017, I think we are in trouble going forward.

EJ33 · Mar 25, 2016

89illinigrad said:
He lands a 2017 class of Pickett, Damonte, Tilmon, Goodwin and say Theo John, but misses the tourney. Does he get a pass?

Yes, 100%. He does not need to make the NCAA next year if he lands that class. He simply needs to be respectable on and off the court.

Adnarel · Mar 25, 2016

EJ33 said:
Yes, 100%. He does not need to make the NCAA next year if he lands that class. He simply needs to be respectable on and off the court.

I don't call it 100%. If the team, with a full roster, can't make more noise next year than they did this year, then Groce's seat is definitely hot. A lot of people are going to say that a berth is the bare minimum for Groce staying around. I think that if he lands a dynamite '17 class, then some leeway should be given regarding the on-court product, especially if it's a bubble team (but if we stay healthy and get to keep Thorne, I don't see how we're not a tourney team).

If the team doesn't make noise in the B1G and kids keep getting in trouble, then he's outta here.

EDIT: this assumes we keep Nunn and Black. God, I hate these new considerations.

GBPillini · Mar 25, 2016

EJ33 said:
Yes, 100%. He does not need to make the NCAA next year if he lands that class. He simply needs to be respectable on and off the court.

Really? A recruiting class of the #16, 54, 65 (per rivals) best players in their class and 2 three star recruits is enough to cover up 4 years straight of missing the tournament? I mean that's obviously a good class, but outside of Tilmon that's pretty much the caliber of recruits we've been getting for the last 7 years with only one player probably being an immediate impact player.

dweebs19 · Mar 25, 2016

If there are no injuries next year and he doesn't make the tournament, I think he deserves to be fired. If he can't make the tournament with this healthy roster, then his coaching is definitely not up to par and he would be wasting the potential of the 2017 class anyway

Bomb Squad 217 · Mar 25, 2016

dweebs19 said:
If there are no injuries next year and he doesn't make the tournament, I think he deserves to be fired. If he can't make the tournament with this healthy roster, then his coaching is definitely not up to par and he would be wasting the potential of the 2017 class anyway

I dont think its even in question at this point.

BananaShampoo · Mar 25, 2016

GBPillini said:
Really? A recruiting class of the #16, 54, 65 (per rivals) best players in their class and 2 three star recruits is enough to cover up 4 years straight of missing the tournament? I mean that's obviously a good class, but outside of Tilmon that's pretty much the caliber of recruits we've been getting for the last 7 years with only one player probably being an immediate impact player.

That's about as a good of a class as Self ever landed at Illinois (the Dee, Deron, Augie class). I also think Goodwin is criminally underrated, just like DWill was.

EJ33 · Mar 25, 2016

GBPillini said:
Really? A recruiting class of the #16, 54, 65 (per rivals) best players in their class and 2 three star recruits is enough to cover up 4 years straight of missing the tournament? I mean that's obviously a good class, but outside of Tilmon that's pretty much the caliber of recruits we've been getting for the last 7 years with only one player probably being an immediate impact player.

Yes, really. The only reason he still has a job is the possibility of the 2017 class. He's not going to get fired if he delivers. Sorry to break the news to you.

jrichisamazing · Mar 25, 2016

GBPillini said:
Really? A recruiting class of the #16, 54, 65 (per rivals) best players in their class and 2 three star recruits is enough to cover up 4 years straight of missing the tournament? I mean that's obviously a good class, but outside of Tilmon that's pretty much the caliber of recruits we've been getting for the last 7 years with only one player probably being an immediate impact player.

But 2 of those players include a PG and C that's the biggest key.

Big Al · Mar 26, 2016

BananaShampoo said:
That's about as a good of a class as Self ever landed at Illinois (the Dee, Deron, Augie class). I also think Goodwin is criminally underrated, just like DWill was.

Don't say that.

Deleted member 29907 · Mar 26, 2016

jrichisamazing said:
Last year, Groce was still trying to correct the mess he acquired from Weber. We had 2 stop gap transfers, our best player (Hill) was playing out of position, our starting PG was out for the season, and the one stop gap transfer (Cosby) went from shooting 40% 3pt to <20%. I agree last year was a disappoint, but it wasn't as bad as you make it sound.

Agree - we're still digging out. We did not get a proven higher major coach who could instantly pull in 4 stars, we got a 'future potential' coach. The combination of the hole, the experience and then add to that the injuries have made this take more time. To think anyone at his experience level could turn this any quicker without cheating is not realistic - particularly given the injuries. One good recruiting class can turn that pretty quickly.

MadSeason · Mar 26, 2016

I'm not sure John Groce can be the guy here, but I'm also not 100% certain he cannot be either. He did a great job his first season, but since then the result have obviously been uninspiring.

The problem I have in basing our hopes on a recruiting class is it can be fools gold. I believe the early commitment of Jereme Richmond and then the 2010 Class in general helped take a lot of heat off Bruce Weber. Richmond was the megastar that was going to return us to glory.

That class other then Meyers flamed out spectacularly and did nothing to solve the Weber problem.

If Groce struggles next year, I wouldn't base any decision making on who he may have committed as part of 2017

Illinois Basketball 2016-2017

89illinigrad

illini8507

89illinigrad

WesterveltVictoryCigar

frozenrope9190

Joel Goodson

89illinigrad

WesterveltVictoryCigar

IrishIllini

jrichisamazing

dweebs19

WesterveltVictoryCigar

Jabber Jabber

Greensboro

EJ33

Adnarel

GBPillini

dweebs19

Bomb Squad 217

BananaShampoo

Captain 'Paign

EJ33

jrichisamazing

Big Al

Deleted member 29907

Guest

MadSeason