Illinois Hoops Recruiting Thread (January-March 2016)

[bleedsorangenblue]

Hi all - just wanted to swing by to share some notes I had...given the Frolling announcement I thought it was good timing.

- Frolling was an AZ lean the whole way. Turns out AZ was making him more of a plan B option and that cooled him off on the AZ shot. SMU was his plan B. From everyone I have talked to, no one has a real clue how ILL got the visit/connection, fwiw.

- TJL is an absolute monster. Lots of people kicking themselves over whiffing on this kid. Great get for ILL.

- Lots of rumblings (as always) among the B1G coaching circuit, mostly centered around Groce. John has a LOT of respect, and a lot going for him given his ability to recruit and form relationships. The main issue, and this is like a broken record to me, is that his team & program has yet to form an identity. It's no secret that he's become victim to the injury bug, but unfortunately until he puts everything together on the court, recruits will remain in the friend-zone with Groce & Co. The most common complaint of Groce by recruits and handlers is that they have no idea what portrait John is trying to paint. How can he land a point guard when he's demonstrated four years of lackluster pg play? Good luck grabbing a big man when you haven't had a dominant post game in the better part of a decade. Groce can't even sell a role-player like a knock-down 3 pt specialist like just about every program in the league can.

Just my opinion here, but I think once Groce can get a team in the tourney and win a game or two, the pieces will really fall into place. Until then, no one wants to commit four or five years to an NIT team without a solid identity.

Cheers IL....

Thanks for the insights ... Good stuff! :thumb:

 

[IlliniFan12]

Great point. Does anyone know of any bigs that we didn't recruit as hard because we already had Darius Paul in the fold/on our roster? I'm sure there were several names, but I can't think of any at the moment.

 

[Greensboro]

Don't disagree but this is where a little luck would have helped. We thought we had TA for the past two years. We had Snider but we know how that turned out. I am sure that some prospects might have considered us had he not been in the fold. The Paul fiasco was a gamble that did not pay off. There are opportunity costs with everything and there are only so many scholarships. If any of these three players had panned out, we might not be having this conversation. This has all been compounded by the other injuries. How much of the above you can place on Groce is the subject of conjecture here.

Well said I agree as well, I don't think we could have scripted as bad of luck/breaks as we have had the last few years. I think you have to assume you get one of those pgs if you get to final 2 or better(plus a verbal) with all of them. For the Bigs I think we were in well enough with prospects that you take your chances knowing you have Paul signed. With the benefit of hindsight, for Paul maybe we needed to develop another solid backup plan knowing there were issues in the off year & then the suspension, but you are a bit limited with how many back ups you can have by scholarship limits (your opportunity costs).

My worry is that Groce was selling promise, at some point that gets harder to sell without wins. I'm still 100% on the Groce train, but at the point the promise is gone, then recruiting gets harder. Improve this year, NCAA next year, & solid 2017 class and he is good...that should be easy, especially with the luckiest program in the nation.

 

[Deleted member 586966]

Sure wins would help, but I think this over simplifies the situation. We have recruited 2-4 just fine despite the record...As Obelix likes to tell us it is missing at 1 & 5. If our recruiting was balanced we would be ok. In Groce's first 3 classes he took only Tate as a pg, he took only Mav & maybe Austin at 5 & we were already in a hole at both positions with the 2011 class departures we were left with only Egwu and Tracy. Personally, I think Tate/mav/Colbert were the best available options as late in the game as Groce was hired for the class and would have been fine if we filled in behind them. We badly needed another pg to replace Tracy, we shot for the moon in Jackson, Snider, Brunson, & Evans, if TJL came in 2014 or 2015 we would be in much better shape. At 5 Paul was probably the guy to fill the spot but we will never know how that would have turned out on the floor, while we went after Thomas, Bragg, Cliff, Sharma?, ... , but just add one more solid big to Black/Finke and we would be in much better shape.

Legit 1s and 5s are the hardest to come by and thus generally the hardest to recruit, but Groce is out of mulligans. By the time the jury's out on Lucas, John Groce is likely out of here.

The "but"s don't fly in high-major basketball. Nobody cares if you have the reputation of being a good recruiter if you can't put wins in the win column and nobody is patting you on the back for recruiting Coleman-Lands and Black if you leave some of the other positions 100% devoid of talent.

 

[ILL in IA]

Hi all - just wanted to swing by to share some notes I had...given the Frolling announcement I thought it was good timing.

- Frolling was an AZ lean the whole way. Turns out AZ was making him more of a plan B option and that cooled him off on the AZ shot. SMU was his plan B. From everyone I have talked to, no one has a real clue how ILL got the visit/connection, fwiw.

- TJL is an absolute monster. Lots of people kicking themselves over whiffing on this kid. Great get for ILL.

- Lots of rumblings (as always) among the B1G coaching circuit, mostly centered around Groce. John has a LOT of respect, and a lot going for him given his ability to recruit and form relationships. The main issue, and this is like a broken record to me, is that his team & program has yet to form an identity. It's no secret that he's become victim to the injury bug, but unfortunately until he puts everything together on the court, recruits will remain in the friend-zone with Groce & Co. The most common complaint of Groce by recruits and handlers is that they have no idea what portrait John is trying to paint. How can he land a point guard when he's demonstrated four years of lackluster pg play? Good luck grabbing a big man when you haven't had a dominant post game in the better part of a decade. Groce can't even sell a role-player like a knock-down 3 pt specialist like just about every program in the league can.

Just my opinion here, but I think once Groce can get a team in the tourney and win a game or two, the pieces will really fall into place. Until then, no one wants to commit four or five years to an NIT team without a solid identity.

Cheers IL....

Great post, thanks for the insight. Personally one thing I want to see for the rest of the year, is get Big Mike healthy and get plenty of tape out there for recruits to see how Groce will use a big man in his offense. We fed him the ball a ton during the start of the year, think it could possibly go a long way for a guy like Tillmon and say "this will be you every night if you come to Illinois"

 

[Ryllini]

Hi all - just wanted to swing by to share some notes I had...given the Frolling announcement I thought it was good timing.

- Frolling was an AZ lean the whole way. Turns out AZ was making him more of a plan B option and that cooled him off on the AZ shot. SMU was his plan B. From everyone I have talked to, no one has a real clue how ILL got the visit/connection, fwiw.

- TJL is an absolute monster. Lots of people kicking themselves over whiffing on this kid. Great get for ILL.

- Lots of rumblings (as always) among the B1G coaching circuit, mostly centered around Groce. John has a LOT of respect, and a lot going for him given his ability to recruit and form relationships. The main issue, and this is like a broken record to me, is that his team & program has yet to form an identity. It's no secret that he's become victim to the injury bug, but unfortunately until he puts everything together on the court, recruits will remain in the friend-zone with Groce & Co. The most common complaint of Groce by recruits and handlers is that they have no idea what portrait John is trying to paint. How can he land a point guard when he's demonstrated four years of lackluster pg play? Good luck grabbing a big man when you haven't had a dominant post game in the better part of a decade. Groce can't even sell a role-player like a knock-down 3 pt specialist like just about every program in the league can.

Just my opinion here, but I think once Groce can get a team in the tourney and win a game or two, the pieces will really fall into place. Until then, no one wants to commit four or five years to an NIT team without a solid identity.

Cheers IL....

Great stuff, thanks. Do you think TJL could be the first piece to the portrait that JFG is trying to paint. Couple that with the development already of Fink3. You are right, I think a tourney appearance would do wonders, but if that doesn't happen until next season, will that be too late for the 2017 and the future? Are recruits missing the shooting of JCL and the development of KN's and MH's shooting? If the staff can and is developing their shot, why couldn't they develop a knock down 3pt specialist.

 

[BlueChipBridesmaid]

Hi all - just wanted to swing by to share some notes I had...given the Frolling announcement I thought it was good timing.

- Frolling was an AZ lean the whole way. Turns out AZ was making him more of a plan B option and that cooled him off on the AZ shot. SMU was his plan B. From everyone I have talked to, no one has a real clue how ILL got the visit/connection, fwiw.

- TJL is an absolute monster. Lots of people kicking themselves over whiffing on this kid. Great get for ILL.

- Lots of rumblings (as always) among the B1G coaching circuit, mostly centered around Groce. John has a LOT of respect, and a lot going for him given his ability to recruit and form relationships. The main issue, and this is like a broken record to me, is that his team & program has yet to form an identity. It's no secret that he's become victim to the injury bug, but unfortunately until he puts everything together on the court, recruits will remain in the friend-zone with Groce & Co. The most common complaint of Groce by recruits and handlers is that they have no idea what portrait John is trying to paint. How can he land a point guard when he's demonstrated four years of lackluster pg play? Good luck grabbing a big man when you haven't had a dominant post game in the better part of a decade. Groce can't even sell a role-player like a knock-down 3 pt specialist like just about every program in the league can.

Just my opinion here, but I think once Groce can get a team in the tourney and win a game or two, the pieces will really fall into place. Until then, no one wants to commit four or five years to an NIT team without a solid identity.

Cheers IL....

As if any of this is news to us. Thanks for sharing though. He hasn't been wrong yet

 

[Greensboro]

Legit 1s and 5s are the hardest to come by and thus generally the hardest to recruit, but Groce is out of mulligans. By the time the jury's out on Lucas, John Groce is likely out of here.

The "but"s don't fly in high-major basketball. Nobody cares if you have the reputation of being a good recruiter if you can't put wins in the win column and nobody is patting you on the back for recruiting Coleman-Lands and Black if you leave some of the other positions 100% devoid of talent.

You have to give the guy a chance as well & you don't want to start over if it is just bad luck and you have your guy. The example that comes to mind from this neck of the woods is Ron Rivera. Mid last season the local talk radio had him on the way out, he's lucky enough to be in the worst division in football and make the playoffs...this year he's up for coach of the year & taking his team to the Super Bowl. Different situations, but I think the Kool Aid crowd doesn't realize how bad of shape we were in with the impending implosion of the 2011 class, the already imploded 2010 class, and an about to graduate 2009 class, an empty 2012 class, and some ground to make up late in the game on the 2013 class. You have to expect to miss some on recruiting, but missing on 4 pg as close as we were in theory isn't going to happen very often. The injuries this year are beyond the normal bell curve expectation.

I think Groce gets a mulligan this year, before we start over again; you throw out the results this year because we are badly undermanned because of injuries beyond what anyone should be expected to deal with. But we need to win next year & we need to recruit at least a solid 2017 class so the arrow is pointing up. But it isn't all bad, the freshman class looks to be good, throw in Finke/Black/TJL and we could have some solid talent coming up for the next 3 years. As long as Groce can recruit, we will get better...2016 should show us wins heading in the right direction, 2017 class should go a long way to answer recruiting.

 

[Obelix]

Froling is a guy that likes to hang out on the perimeter. His post moves may be a bit stronger than Finke at this point, but I don't see how you can say this is a big loss and at the same time believe that Finke cannot play 5 at this level.

It seems that you want to bring the discussion back to Finke, but it has nothing to do with Finke. As I said, Froling is not a true center either, but he seems to have stronger post moves than Finke and may be better suited to play as a "surrogate" C. As I said in post above (#989), 2016 is really gone, and expecting to hit gold in 5th year market may prove fool's gold. So in terms of surrogate options, Froling looked really good. I do not believe we can do better than Froling at the position for next year, he also looks like a player who would have been able to contribute in main rotation. I'd feel a lot better with Mav/Froling at C and Finke/Black at 4, also keeping Hill full time at 4, than with only Mav at C forcing a more inefficient use of Finke, and possibly again extending Hill part time at the 4.

Even for 2017, other than Tilmon, it is not that we have many viable options even at surrogate 5. Mav is graduating. Froling would have been a huge get.

 

[sdillini]

Half the teams in America want a 5th year true center. Those guys are few and far between and hard to get on top of that.

Doesn't absolutely have to be a true center. Just someone who can defend the post better than Finke/Morgan will or Froling would have. Not a high bar.

 

[491illinois]

A little luck and some time for development will go a long way toward solving this problem. I think the program is on the verge of breaking through but people have to have some patience to see it through.

It would be difficult to think of too many jobs that are more difficult than recruiting, given there are so many variables that are simply out of one's control. Luck and circumstance is one of those variable. Agreed are due for some. We appear to be on the verge, and 2017 appears to be a make-or-break year. We have not competed for a conference championship in 9 years, how much patience should we have?

 

[BlindLoyalty]

Considering that Thorne said he expects to be back tonight (I think it was over Instagram?), I'd say this is the likely scenario. To me that means either the staff isn't confident in getting a 6th year or else Thorne isn't interested.

I'm late to the Thorne discussion, but I think most people were missing the the real issue re: Thorne and the 5th year transfer rule/possible 6th year medical redshirt request.

The real issue would seem to be that the graduate transfer rule only permits an institution to pay for 1 year of a graduate transfer's masters program. If Thorne wanted to apply for a 6th year, he would be required to pay his own way next season.

 

[Deleted member 586966]

You have to give the guy a chance as well & you don't want to start over if it is just bad luck and you have your guy. The example that comes to mind from this neck of the woods is Ron Rivera. Mid last season the local talk radio had him on the way out, he's lucky enough to be in the worst division in football and make the playoffs...this year he's up for coach of the year & taking his team to the Super Bowl. Different situations, but I think the Kool Aid crowd doesn't realize how bad of shape we were in with the impending implosion of the 2011 class, the already imploded 2010 class, and an about to graduate 2009 class, an empty 2012 class, and some ground to make up late in the game on the 2013 class. You have to expect to miss some on recruiting, but missing on 4 pg as close as we were in theory isn't going to happen very often. The injuries this year are beyond the normal bell curve expectation.

I think Groce gets a mulligan this year, before we start over again; you throw out the results this year because we are badly undermanned because of injuries beyond what anyone should be expected to deal with. But we need to win next year & we need to recruit at least a solid 2017 class so the arrow is pointing up. But it isn't all bad, the freshman class looks to be good, throw in Finke/Black/TJL and we could have some solid talent coming up for the next 3 years. As long as Groce can recruit, we will get better...2016 should show us wins heading in the right direction, 2017 class should go a long way to answer recruiting.

I thought the whole point of the discussion was that he hasn't recruited well enough, or at the very least hasn't recruited in a well-rounded manner. Unfortunately I don't see how time mends that wound before Groce is shown the door.

Seems like we really are in a chicken/egg situation with not enough time to come up with a solution.

 

[zpfled]

I thought the whole point of the discussion was that he hasn't recruited well enough, or at the very least hasn't recruited in a well-rounded manner. Unfortunately I don't see how time mends that wound before Groce is shown the door.

Seems like we really are in a chicken/egg situation with not enough time to come up with a solution.

I think our biggest need is PG, and TJL might be that guy. Between him and two seniors next year we'll be better off than we have been since Groce started here.

 

[Sleepy Floyd]

I think our biggest need is PG, and TJL might be that guy. Between him and two seniors next year we'll be better off than we have been since Groce started here.

4 years later and only marginally so.

 

[bleedsorangenblue]

I think our biggest need is PG, and TJL might be that guy. Between him and two seniors next year we'll be better off than we have been since Groce started here.

Besides, if the team is healthy, it will make a huge difference and we should see a different product on the floor. I would contend that Groce has recruited well enough but the bad luck has set this program back a year. I think the team would be in the tournament this year had there not been the injuries and mishaps. The patience needs to be extended for the rest of this year and through the next. If the product on the floor doesn't look vastly different next year, it will be time to move on. Barring a complete collapse this year, Groce deserves to have next year.

This is exactly how I felt for Weber's last year. I really thought that Bruce could do something with the talent on that team but was proven wrong. Consequently, I understand why people are gun-shy about giving Groce another year. I just don't think we will be proven wrong this time. I certainly hope I am not wrong again.

 

[Cubby Blue]

Besides, if the team is healthy, it will make a huge difference and we should see a different product on the floor. I would contend that Groce has recruited well enough but the bad luck has set this program back a year. I think the team would be in the tournament this year had there not been the injuries and mishaps. The patience needs to be extended for the rest of this year and through the next. If the product on the floor doesn't look vastly different next year, it will be time to move on. Barring a complete collapse this year, Groce deserves to have next year.

This is exactly how I felt for Weber's last year. I really thought that Bruce could do something with the talent on that team but was proven wrong. Consequently, I understand why people are gun-shy about giving Groce another year. I just don't think we will be proven wrong this time. I certainly hope I am not wrong again.

The difference is Bruce had been around a while. JG deserves next year just to see his first recruits through their senior year. I think Kendrick and Malcolm deserve it as well, Malcolm for staying committed and Kendrick for being the first recruit.

 

[Foggy Notion]

The difference is Bruce had been around a while. JG deserves next year just to see his first recruits through their senior year. I think Kendrick and Malcolm deserve it as well, Malcolm for staying committed and Kendrick for being the first recruit.

I think Mav committed before Nunn, but I agree with your point.

 

[Newman]

It seems that you want to bring the discussion back to Finke, but it has nothing to do with Finke. As I said, Froling is not a true center either, but he seems to have stronger post moves than Finke and may be better suited to play as a "surrogate" C. As I said in post above (#989), 2016 is really gone, and expecting to hit gold in 5th year market may prove fool's gold. So in terms of surrogate options, Froling looked really good. I do not believe we can do better than Froling at the position for next year, he also looks like a player who would have been able to contribute in main rotation. I'd feel a lot better with Mav/Froling at C and Finke/Black at 4, also keeping Hill full time at 4, than with only Mav at C forcing a more inefficient use of Finke, and possibly again extending Hill part time at the 4.

Even for 2017, other than Tilmon, it is not that we have many viable options even at surrogate 5. Mav is graduating. Froling would have been a huge get.

That's fair. I only brought up Finke because I believe that they both can play the same position and bring the same strengths and weaknesses as "surrogate" 5's. It would have been nice to have Froling because he could back up Mav, but I think he would have been behind Finke in the rotation, at either the 4 or 5. With Black and Kipper at the 4, I think we were going to see Finke at the 5 even if Froling would have committed, but that's just my opinion. Finke will get stronger, and Froling would have been nice boost to the depth for when Mav graduates.

I've always been more confident about us landing a transfer big, than high school bigs. We would be extremely lucky to land another Thorne, but I don't think it would be crazy to expect some like McLaurin, whom I would take in a heart beat. It doesn't help our long-term situation, but I think that would help the most with recruiting. We don't have many other options anyway.

 

[whovous]

I think we do need a true center. We should have gotten one or more (of better quality than what we have) in the last 4 years. Problem is that 2016 is really gone, and expecting to hit gold in 5th year market may prove fool's gold. So in terms of surrogate options, Froling looked really good.

Froling is not a true center, and I am pretty sure he does not want to be a true center. I suspect at least one reason among many he did not come here, is that he suspected we would slot him at the five. He has no chance of being a five in the NBA, so I presume he asked coaches where they planned to put him. If they said at the post, that cost them some decision points.

 

[Obelix]

I've always been more confident about us landing a transfer big, than high school bigs. We would be extremely lucky to land another Thorne, but I don't think it would be crazy to expect some like McLaurin, whom I would take in a heart beat. It doesn't help our long-term situation, but I think that would help the most with recruiting. We don't have many other options anyway.

I would have preferred Froling, but I would also take a McLaurin type in a heart beat at this point. I thought McLaurin contributed more to Groce's success his first year than people give him credit for. He was a low post player, who wanted to stay in the low post, played with heart, and contributed to his abilities. He helped keep defenses honest without allowing them to constantly extend to the perimeter, and gave Paul/DJ some more freedom to operate and be efficient.

If we can't get someone like McLaurin though, I'd rather have the staff take a little bit of a gamble with a high potential raw player such as the Greek Freak's brother (just an example) rather than an Ekey type. Not sure if that is even possible at this point though, these type of players are still borderline top-100. Not sure if we can get back into these recruitments so late.

 

[Greensboro]

I thought the whole point of the discussion was that he hasn't recruited well enough, or at the very least hasn't recruited in a well-rounded manner. Unfortunately I don't see how time mends that wound before Groce is shown the door.

Seems like we really are in a chicken/egg situation with not enough time to come up with a solution.

He certainly hasn't gotten results at PG & enough talent at 5. I think he has recruited quite well at 2-4. I think to a point you look at how he recruited at pg & ask how much is bad luck vs. bad recruiting...add to that the injuries this year & I don't think anyone knows where this team would have gone. To some extent, I understand no excuses, you have enough talent to deal with some injuries, but at some point that is no longer realistic...we are well past that point with regards to injuries and in my mind with regards to recruiting at pg position (I personally have a hard time buying that Groce is good at recruiting wings, but not at pg & I think that will level out). 2017 is a big year recruiting, a good number of scholarships, a decent instate class including some downstate talent...we need another pg to replace Tracy, we need to find at least 2 more bigs by then.

I go with the general consensus that Groce will be here next year 1) we need to show win-loss progress 2) need to recruit a good 2017 class, also I think 3) 2017 will be interesting, we will need to replace 4 seniors + any 5th yr transfers we pick up, we need 2 pg ready & 1-2 bigs ready to be in the rotation...if we do Groce will be here for a long time. If Groce delivers on 2017 class, I think he is here for the long haul.

 

[whovous]

The real issue would seem to be that the graduate transfer rule only permits an institution to pay for 1 year of a graduate transfer's masters program. If Thorne wanted to apply for a 6th year, he would be required to pay his own way next season.

I've not seen this argument before. Can you back it up with some citations to the applicable rule(s)?

The issue is likely moot as Thorne appears to be returning, but I'd appreciate it if you'd further my education on the matter.

 

[Obelix]

Froling is not a true center, and I am pretty sure he does not want to be a true center. I suspect at least one reason among many he did not come here, is that he suspected we would slot him at the five. He has no chance of being a five in the NBA, so I presume he asked coaches where they planned to put him. If they said at the post, that cost them some decision points.

Maybe you talk to him more often than I do, but he just committed to a team that has absolutely no C, no size, and extremely limited ability to add a lot of players, let alone true C's who can contribute immediately. But they have talent at other positions.

 

[whovous]

Yeah, and I would talk to Harry even more if I could get Obama to stop calling me.

Bit serially, he has committed to a team that is doing extremely well with no size and may plan to use him the same way. Everything I've seen written about him says he is a stretch 4. I've gotta think that is by choice on his part, given how few 5s there are out there.