Illinois Hoops Recruiting Thread (July-August 2016)

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#1,351      
When I watch Da'Monte William play I see pure point guard skills. I'm not at all concerned about his ability to play the point; I am concerned about his motor. I don't think he can get much playing time as an off guard; he doesn't shoot well enough from the outside.

It's a shame he isn't being used as a primary point guard in HS. I realize his HS team doesn't have a lot of height, but watching him play the high post is a real waste of his development. He's the spitting image of his father, imo, a bit more athletic although his outside shooting isn't yet as good. But I think he'll be a point guard in college or a transfer/bust. I'd be surprised if Groce recruited him to be anything but a point. Just for the record, I was one of those that said JCL will never be a point guard (and now believe that more than ever).


Frank was not a very good shooter. Just made clutch plays like very few we have ever seen here.
39% career overall in college, and 32% from three.

Frank was elite ballhandler who could use change of speed and angles like an old school baller. Could get in the lane at will and get shots off or draw fouls. Great FT shooter.

I had thought DaMonte was being seen as a PG at the college level when he verbaled, but not sure now what will happen.
If he was being seen as a PG- why go after Frazier in the 2017 class?
We will have three on board already then.


If he is projected as primarily a wing/2G- not sure how he breaks into the lineup very early.
 
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#1,352      
The last evaluation period for the Summer is July 20-24. Don't look for much to happen between then and the start of "officials". FYI, both Meanstreets and MIF played in last year's Las Vegas Classic (tourney that Frazier's FE is "scheduled" to play in). In fact MIF went to the championship game last year.
 
#1,353      
Frank was not a very good shooter. Just made clutch plays like very few we have ever seen here.
39% career overall in college, and 32% from three.

Frank was elite ballhandler who could use change of speed and angles like an old school baller. Could get in the lane at will and get shots off or draw fouls. Great FT shooter.

I had thought DaMonte was being seen as a PG at the college level when he verbaled, but not sure now what will happen.
If he was being seen as a PG- why go after Frazier in the 2017 class?
We will have three on board already then.


If he is projected as primarily a wing/2G- not sure how he breaks into the lineup very early.

Good analysis Mojo. You can maybe help here, my biggest concern is the tremendous drop in rankings for DMW. Can you think of an Illinois recruit who has fallen that far (from 20's to 70's+) and went on to have a productive career, Or for that matter not only Illinois but college in general. Colbert and Shaw come to mind as one's who didn't.
 
#1,354      
Good analysis Mojo. You can maybe help here, my biggest concern is the tremendous drop in rankings for DMW. Can you think of an Illinois recruit who has fallen that far (from 20's to 70's+) and went on to have a productive career, Or for that matter not only Illinois but college in general. Colbert and Shaw come to mind as one's who didn't.

If he ends up not being that great then so be it. Hate for it to be Frank's kid but someone has to be the 11th, 12th and 13th guys on the roster. If we have guys with dmw ability at the end of our bench, I think we are doing just fine.
 
#1,355      

Mike

C-U Townie
Good analysis Mojo. You can maybe help here, my biggest concern is the tremendous drop in rankings for DMW. Can you think of an Illinois recruit who has fallen that far (from 20's to 70's+) and went on to have a productive career, Or for that matter not only Illinois but college in general. Colbert and Shaw come to mind as one's who didn't.

Thought DMV recovering from an injury and being out of commission was the main reason for the drop in rankings.
 
#1,356      

UofIChE06

Pittsburgh
Good analysis Mojo. You can maybe help here, my biggest concern is the tremendous drop in rankings for DMW. Can you think of an Illinois recruit who has fallen that far (from 20's to 70's+) and went on to have a productive career, Or for that matter not only Illinois but college in general. Colbert and Shaw come to mind as one's who didn't.

Highest I remember seeing Damonte was around 50. From 50 to 100ish isn't that much of a change. Not too worried about him. Worst case he is a solid but unspectacular 4 yr player.
 
#1,357      

TownieMatt

CU Expat
Chicago
Good analysis Mojo. You can maybe help here, my biggest concern is the tremendous drop in rankings for DMW. Can you think of an Illinois recruit who has fallen that far (from 20's to 70's+) and went on to have a productive career, Or for that matter not only Illinois but college in general. Colbert and Shaw come to mind as one's who didn't.

Most recent example like that is DJW. I'm not going to look up his exact rise and fall in the rankings, but early in his HS career he was around the top 25 and ended up falling well out of the top 50.

Time will tell how DJW turns out, but there are a lot of similarities in their careers so far. Both were flirting with 5-star status midway through their HS careers, but dropped later because of consistency (or "motor") issues. Both have obvious high-div 1 talent and very high ceilings if they can put it all together.

I think of both as being relatively high-risk (they may never develop into contributors)/high-reward (they may develop into all B1G level players).
 
#1,358      
Good analysis Mojo. You can maybe help here, my biggest concern is the tremendous drop in rankings for DMW. Can you think of an Illinois recruit who has fallen that far (from 20's to 70's+) and went on to have a productive career, Or for that matter not only Illinois but college in general. Colbert and Shaw come to mind as one's who didn't.


I have only heard there have been issues with motor, and his shooting.
He certainly was scoring enough and was engaged enough before when he got ranked in Top 50.
Will see how this season goes. Maybe there has been emotional letdown after he committed. He is just a kid.


What I will say, and it is not popular to hear, it is fairly rare at UI or anywhere in high D1 when a kid outside of the RSCI Top 100 makes an impact early, or even down the road in their career turns into a really good BT starter.
Mike Davis types outperforming rankings are the exception.
Best case is often just rotation guys like Brock.

That is my concern with too many Top 150 -ish guys.
Heck- lower Top 100 guys often do not develop.
 
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#1,359      
I have only heard there have been issues with motor, and his shooting.
He certainly was scoring enough and was engaged enough before when he got ranked in Top 50.
Will see how this season goes. Maybe there has been emotional letdown after he committed. He is just a kid.


What I will say, and it is not popular to hear, it is fairly rare at UI or anywhere in high D1 when a kid outside of the RSCI Top 100 makes an impact early, or even down the road in their career turns into a really good BT starter.
Mike Davis types outperforming rankings are the exception.
Best case is often just rotation guys like Brock.

That is my concern with too many Top 150 -ish guys.
Heck- lower Top 100 guys often do not develop.

Right there for outperforming their rankings would certainly be Augie.
 
#1,360      

Mike

C-U Townie
Heck- lower Top 100 guys often do not develop.

We've had this discussion before. The top 40 or so guys are the ones who have semi accurate rankings (and value), and the rest are pretty much a crapshoot. Obviously that's an oversimplification, but the idea is that say a "60ish guy" is probably very statistically similar to a "160 guy" as far as what his impact will "probably be". A #40, should have more impact than a #60-#150, a #15 even more, a #5 even more, etc. Goes without saying that a recruit's number of stars is the best guess at how effective they will be in college, and the teams that recruit the 5 (and 4) stars the best are the ones who usually win the most.
 
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#1,361      
Right there for outperforming their rankings would certainly be Augie.


Augie was #78 RSCI.
We would kill to bring in another big at that level to go with Tilmon.
And yeah- he was a stud.
But it kind of confirms my point- you are better off with as many Top 100 guys as you can get.
Some really take off. Many play to their ranking, and some bomb out.

As you go down the list, more just do not make any real impact.
 
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#1,362      
We've had this discussion before. The top 40 or so guys are the ones who have semi accurate rankings (and value), and the rest are pretty much a crapshoot. Obviously that's an oversimplification, but the idea is that say a "60ish guy" is probably very statistically similar to a "160 guy" as far as what his impact will "probably be". A #40, should have more impact than a #60-#150, a #15 even more, a #5 even more, etc. Goes without saying that a recruit's number of stars is the best guess at how effective they will be in college, and the teams that recruit the 5 (and 4) stars the best are the ones who usually win the most.


I will take my chances with Top 40-60 kids all day over Top 160 guys.

List the guys at Illinois who were out of Top 150 who were legit impact guys before they were done.
 
#1,363      
We've had this discussion before. The top 40 or so guys are the ones who have semi accurate rankings (and value), and the rest are pretty much a crapshoot. Obviously that's an oversimplification, but the idea is that say a "60ish guy" is probably very statistically similar to a "160 guy" as far as what his impact will "probably be".

That "idea" is not a good one. The accuracy of rankings does obviously diminish as you get further from the top 5 star guys, but in no way would I think a top 60 kid is going to do as well as someone ranked 160. Yes, there are exceptions, but as the saying goes, those are the ones that "prove the rule".

Now if you said someone ranked #90 might be similar to someone ranked just outside of that mythical "top 100", i.e. #110, the OK, I could go along with that.

Bottom line, if you're signing a bunch of kids outside the top 100, you're not going to be coaching at a program like Illinois for very long.
 
#1,364      

t7nich

Central IL
Frank was not a very good shooter. Just made clutch plays like very few we have ever seen here.
39% career overall in college, and 32% from three.

Frank was elite ballhandler who could use change of speed and angles like an old school baller. Could get in the lane at will and get shots off or draw fouls. Great FT shooter.

I had thought DaMonte was being seen as a PG at the college level when he verbaled, but not sure now what will happen.
If he was being seen as a PG- why go after Frazier in the 2017 class?
We will have three on board already then.


If he is projected as primarily a wing/2G- not sure how he breaks into the lineup very early.

I could see Frazier getting minutes at the 2 spot given his skill set, specifically, being able to knock down outside shots.
 
#1,365      
Frank was not a very good shooter. Just made clutch plays like very few we have ever seen here.
39% career overall in college, and 32% from three.

Frank was elite ballhandler who could use change of speed and angles like an old school baller. Could get in the lane at will and get shots off or draw fouls. Great FT shooter.

I had thought DaMonte was being seen as a PG at the college level when he verbaled, but not sure now what will happen.
If he was being seen as a PG- why go after Frazier in the 2017 class?
We will have three on board already then
.


If he is projected as primarily a wing/2G- not sure how he breaks into the lineup very early.

These are two players that can play either the 1 or 2 IMO. Both have point guard capabilities and both can shoot. TJL+Damonte, TJL+Frazier, Frazier+Damonte could easily be on the floor together. Something along those lines is part of the vision here, or so it seems. 2 ball handlers on the floor at once kinda thing.
 
#1,366      

Mike

C-U Townie
That "idea" is not a good one. The accuracy of rankings does obviously diminish as you get further from the top 5 star guys, but in no way would I think a top 60 kid is going to do as well as someone ranked 160. Yes, there are exceptions, but as the saying goes, those are the ones that "prove the rule".

Now if you said someone ranked #90 might be similar to someone ranked just outside of that mythical "top 100", i.e. #110, the OK, I could go along with that.

Bottom line, if you're signing a bunch of kids outside the top 100, you're not going to be coaching at a program like Illinois for very long.

Usually agree with you WVC, but a few years ago someone posted historic stats that showed ranking VS making it into the NBA and the thing was a bell curve where #60 & #150 were about the same very low value, and it started to tick up in the #30-#50 range.

Anybody have a link to or remember this?
 
#1,367      

Illwinsagain

Cary, IL
That "idea" is not a good one. The accuracy of rankings does obviously diminish as you get further from the top 5 star guys, but in no way would I think a top 60 kid is going to do as well as someone ranked 160. Yes, there are exceptions, but as the saying goes, those are the ones that "prove the rule".

Now if you said someone ranked #90 might be similar to someone ranked just outside of that mythical "top 100", i.e. #110, the OK, I could go along with that.

Bottom line, if you're signing a bunch of kids outside the top 100, you're not going to be coaching at a program like Illinois for very long.

Also, fit is key. If you find someone that has a skill that fits your system, 10 or 20 spots in the ranking is not as important. See wisky.
 
#1,368      

Illwinsagain

Cary, IL
Usually agree with you WVC, but a few years ago someone posted historic stats that showed ranking VS making it into the NBA and the thing was a bell curve where #60 & #150 were about the same very low value, and it started to tick up in the #30-#50 range.

Anybody have a link to or remember this?

Big difference between making the NBA and being a solid B1G starter. What was it, maybe 6 B1G players got drafted this year?
 
#1,370      
These are two players that can play either the 1 or 2 IMO. Both have point guard capabilities and both can shoot. TJL+Damonte, TJL+Frazier, Frazier+Damonte could easily be on the floor together. Something along those lines is part of the vision here, or so it seems. 2 ball handlers on the floor at once kinda thing.

I like that, but we have a plethora of wings/2G types especially if we add Goodwin, or Lewis, or Smith.

In 2017 we will have JCL, Jordan, Nichols, DJWill, and likely another wing so that is 5 guys for two spots and JCL will be playing 30+ mpg, so really 4 guys already for one starter spot unless we go small.
 
#1,371      
While Frank may not have shot a great percentage, he was very streaky from deep and when on could carry a team. Frank may have been a 32% three point shooter in COLLEGE (not totally awful - certainly not great), Da'Monte was a 20% 3 point shooter in HS last year, which is going to give you a lot more open looks from 3 than the big ten. Unless he improves dramatically, he won't be doing much outside shooting in college.

Frank was not a very good shooter. Just made clutch plays like very few we have ever seen here.
39% career overall in college, and 32% from three.

Frank was elite ballhandler who could use change of speed and angles like an old school baller. Could get in the lane at will and get shots off or draw fouls. Great FT shooter.

I had thought DaMonte was being seen as a PG at the college level when he verbaled, but not sure now what will happen.
If he was being seen as a PG- why go after Frazier in the 2017 class?
We will have three on board already then.


If he is projected as primarily a wing/2G- not sure how he breaks into the lineup very early.
 
#1,372      
Usually agree with you WVC, but a few years ago someone posted historic stats that showed ranking VS making it into the NBA and the thing was a bell curve where #60 & #150 were about the same very low value, and it started to tick up in the #30-#50 range.

Anybody have a link to or remember this?

I assumed we were discussing college level impact. Obviously the trends would be very different for NBA level talent as the bar to get there is much higher.

Here's some analysis via Dan Hanner at RealGM:

1) Star ratings continue to have meaningful predictive power even after we know about a player’s previous college stats.

For example, in the above table the average two-star sophomore has an efficiency of 96.3, while the average three-star sophomore has an efficiency of 100.4. That’s a difference of just over four points per 100 possessions. You might think these differences were all about the different skill levels when these players enrolled in college. But that isn’t the whole story. Even if a two-star and two-star player have equivalent freshman seasons (for example, if the two players both have an ORtg of 95 during their freshman season), on average the two-star sophomore and the three-star sophomore will have ORtgs that differ by 2.5 during their sophomore season. Even after accounting for college stats, the player with the higher recruiting rank will come out ahead, on average.

The reason is that high school star ratings are not just about how polished a player is headed into college. Star ratings also incorporate some information about a player’s ceiling. Even if they have the same freshman season, statistics confirm that the three-star sophomore has higher potential.

2) Other recruiting information has predictive power too, not just the star rating.

The recruiting services do a solid job evaluating three-, four-, and five-star players. There will always be noise and inconsistencies, but by attending the AAU and elite high school events, the scouts get multiple opportunities to evaluate the top players.

But evaluating two-star and lower prospects is notoriously impossible. They don’t get invited to the same elite events. And when they do play with other elite players, they often get overshadowed. Evaluating these players given all the major differences in high school competition is very hard.

Nonetheless, acting on a hypothesis from Paul Pettengill of verbal commits, I can tell you that there is additional information which predicts the performance of lower ranked players.

It turns out that the number of offers a two-star player receives has some predictive power for his college stats. Similarly, if a player receives an offer from a higher ranked program, his performance will also be higher. To summarize, an Iona enrollee that had an offer from Temple, Seton Hall, Fordham, and American will perform better than a player whose only offer was Iona, even if they were both evaluated as two-star prospects.

Bottom Line: To many reader’s today’s column may seem obvious and boring. Everyone knows that getting more highly ranked recruits will lead to more success. But not every piece of conventional wisdom is confirmed by the data. Sometimes we see enough players fail to develop and wonder if the recruiting rankings really matter. And while a players potential is far from the only thing that matters, (teammates and coaches can be even more important), there is no question that a players work ethic and athleticism is on display at the high school level. Recruiting rankings matter, and not just for the Top 100.
 
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#1,373      
Good analysis Mojo. You can maybe help here, my biggest concern is the tremendous drop in rankings for DMW. Can you think of an Illinois recruit who has fallen that far (from 20's to 70's+) and went on to have a productive career, Or for that matter not only Illinois but college in general. Colbert and Shaw come to mind as one's who didn't.

The reason for the drop is pretty important. Shaw dropped because he was way too high to begin with. His body developed early so he stood out, but he didn't have the skills when everyone else started to catch up physically.

DMW's biggest reason for dropping is mainly consistency and possibly playing out of position. IMO consistency/motor can be fixed. DMW can play some high school games at 50% and still be the best player on the court. If he plays like that in college he'll be on the end of the bench.
 
#1,375      
DMW is going to be a stud. No worries!

I see Frazier has 2 more CB's pointing our way since last night. Prob just bandwagon, but I'll drink the cool-aid.
 
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