Illinois Hoops Recruiting Thread (March 2018)
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You are trying to argue against a "height" statement. I have never made that statement or argument about "height", neither do I consider Hinson a Kipper clone. But neither is a PF in college not has the skill set to play PF. They are both SF in college.
This is not terribly surprising, but comforting nonetheless. Smith had a bad season. Full stop. I feel bad for him, and I hope he does well at his next location. Full stop.
Unless it's Missouri, also full stop.
The staff needs to look at Keyshawn Bryant on the Showtime Ballers team...that kid can play and he is the athletic type we need. His offer list is:
https://247sports.com/Player/Keyshawn-Bryant-89886
Hell why not take both Hinson and Bryant, especially if Jones seems undecided/cool somewhat maybe?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0pz65PxkXs
Dunk throughout the video, 2:57 mark
https://247sports.com/Player/Keyshawn-Bryant-89886
Hell why not take both Hinson and Bryant, especially if Jones seems undecided/cool somewhat maybe?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0pz65PxkXs
Dunk throughout the video, 2:57 mark
Jim Mattson
@hoijim
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22h
Adam Miller- Peoria's Chicago State Champ --Talks hoops and Peoria Pipeline
http://www.week.com/story/37761708/adam-miller-peorias-chicago-state-champ#.WrCHUlWRAOA.twitter
@hoijim
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22h
Adam Miller- Peoria's Chicago State Champ --Talks hoops and Peoria Pipeline
http://www.week.com/story/37761708/adam-miller-peorias-chicago-state-champ#.WrCHUlWRAOA.twitter
Kedric Prince
@KedPrince4
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4h
Please allow me to share this, spoke with State Champion/All-Stater E.J. Liddell two weeks ago and Blake Hinson today, both players said paraphrasing: Like how the #illini used Leron Black at the 4 position. Brad Underwood allowed him to shoot, post and freedom to create.
@KedPrince4
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4h
Please allow me to share this, spoke with State Champion/All-Stater E.J. Liddell two weeks ago and Blake Hinson today, both players said paraphrasing: Like how the #illini used Leron Black at the 4 position. Brad Underwood allowed him to shoot, post and freedom to create.
Hinson definitely looks like he is a college 4 man to me. Hope we get him. And Liddell.
With 31 points vs Iowa?
We will disagree. I do not base my opinion on height and weight and hypothetical height-weight comparisons with players on other teams but rather on actually watching some of these players play. I am probably one of the very few who has actually seen Hinson play, although about a year ago. The reason I remember the kid is because of how strong he was. He is not an inside player, he is actually an outside player, likes to shoot but most of his points come from driving to the basket and overpowering his opponents. He does not have PF skills-moves.
His style of play actually resembles more THT, although I think THT is a little quicker, Hinson is stronger. Both use strength as part of attacking the basket from the outside, driving towards the basket. Both SFs, independent of height. Jones is also a SF, but with a different type of game, more of a finesse player in his drives, versus strength.
I do not know where Illinois stands with either player's recruitment but I will be very surprised if they end up on the same team.
How "that" ended, with Illinois finishing their worst season in 20+ years, arguably (depending on perspective) their worst season in over 35-40 years. Frontcourt was a huge problem.
So are you someone who doesn't believe the coaches when they say that the 4 and the 3 do the same thing on our team, in this offense? The start at a different place, but then they all do the same things.
I will not argue that height and having true post players helps with rebounding and defense. It is also a huge plus if you have a guy who is tall that can also post up.
Defensively
It has nothing to do with where players start or the variations of spread motion, whether that is 4-4 or 3-2 spread motion. It has to do with the skill-set of the players and none of Kipper, Hinson, or Jones have that skillset. Frontcourt was a HUGE problem, and playing wings and SFs in the frontcourt (by necessity) created a huge disadvantage. At the end, the results of the season speak for themselves. Frontcourt is a huge recruiting need.
We can go over the same argument again, that we can play our SFs on the frontcourt, but results are already in. Season ended, you can see how good we did.
I guess I just don't see how it matters if he plays the 3 or 4 on offense. If he is good enough to produce and our offense works with a 4 who can drive and shoot, as opposed to posting up, AND he can rebound and play good defense on other 4s.
Can we agree that if he can still score (even if he plays like a wing), and he can play good defense and rebound against other teams' 4s, that there is no problem if he plays the 4?
Can we agree that if he can still score (even if he plays like a wing), and he can play good defense and rebound against other teams' 4s, that there is no problem if he plays the 4?
Offensively as well. The premise that we played great offense this year and our frontcourt did not have huge gaps on offense is simply not true. Our offense left a lot to be desired, ranked #140 on offensive efficiency, #87 in adjusted offensive efficiency. Not sure how people can say that we were really good or even adequate on offense.
Combined with defense, it was even worse. Furthermore, the skillset of players required to play in the frontcourt (and PF) goes for both offense and defense, you just can't play on one end of the flour.
Frontcourt is a huge, huge gap and remains one. We started the year with many arguments of how in our positionless basketball system we did not need real frontcourt players as 2-4 (some said 1-4) do the same thing. We were going to outsystem our opponents. Then that argument fell flat on its face with really bad results and there was an outcry of how much we really need frontcourt players with our recruiting (5th year bigs, etc.). Now that the well seems to be drying, we get back to hoping to "outsystem" our opponents with positionless basketball, expecting better results.
This is not a theoretical argument. It is about skillset and actual players, not height, weight and paper arguments. Our frontcourt and inside game was simply pathetic this years, both on offense and defense. If you can find players who can consistently defend against opposing PFs and also score on opposing PFs on offense, you have that skillset. Kipper, Jones, and Hinson do not have that skillset, and I have seen both Jones and Hinson in actual games.
Jones and Hinson will add value, I actually like both, given our roster, although I do not believe they will end up on the same team. It simply does not make sense and will be lucky to get even one of them, given the slim pickings. With Kipper along with Jones or Hinson, you are adequate at SF, not good but adequate, even though freshmen will go through a steep learning curve. Ayo, Frazier, and DW/Lucas will be good IMO to cover PG/SG. That leaves PF and C, the frontcourt with HUGE, HUGE gaps, especially if Black does not return. Better backcourt but "currently" worse frontcourt.
Front court is a big gap, but much more defensively so than offensively. Your argument for a long time has been we need more talent and depth. It’s true and has been agreed with multiple times by many on this board. What is also true is that our “front court” players, Leron (15), kip (10) and Finke (10), combined for 35 a game this year. The problem is the other 5-6 who played essentially could not combine to match that. During the season the call for 5th year bigs or big recruits was for guys who can block shots and rebound. Now it’s because our best scorer, a front court player, is going pro and we need to replace 15ppg, on top of having to cover our defensive issues.
Also, I don’t understand your unwillingness to accept the idea that our offense is indeed positionless. The 4 guys on the outside literally do exactly the same thing. Doesn’t matter if you’re 5’10 or 6’10, Russell Westbrook or Shaquille O’Neal. If you’re playing on the outside, you’re cutting, posting, running the 2 man game, passing, shooting, or driving. A “4” in our offense is not the same as a 4 in a 3-2 motion offense, or even most other 4 out offenses. That’s why you can play guys who are traditionally “3s” (Hinson, Kipper) in the “4” spot. It’s the same reason we could play both our “1s” at the same time. BU’s sfa teams woud literally interchange all 5 positions. Thats as positionless or interchangeable as it gets.
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The premise that you can consistently and effectively play PGs and SGs/SFs at PF and inside in the frontcourt is simply hogwash and a myth. The skills and skillsets of players are not interchangeable and "positionless." You can stick DW, AJ, Alstork or even Trent at PF and you will consistently get killed. And team results have actually proved that inefficiency even when playing pretty good players (e.g., Malcolm Hill, or even Kipper) out of position. Our frontcourt really was a huge problem this year. HUGE problem, really no inside game on both offense and defense.
You also can't isolate offense and defense either, the same players who will play offense, will also play defense, unless you plan on taking a timeout on every procession. The skillset at a position, requires you to play both ends of the floor.
Furthermore, Liddell will not literally do the same thing with Frazier (in the same lineup with Ayo), or Lucas, or DW as you say. His skillset and ability to play against PF inside (both on offense and defense) varies significantly, as will his utilization.
Multi-talented players with superior skills are the only ones who can truly effectively play multiple positions on the floor. That is a matter of having the skillset, and still requires some physical characteristic (try to play 5'10" SG players, as you say, at PF and you will get killed against better competition). Sure, give me 5 Greek Freaks and I can play true positionless basketball. But that requires exceptional talent and skills, not adequate, exceptional.
We need true frontcourt players, otherwise the premise of playing SG's and SF's who do not have the skillset at PF will just fall flat on its face. And results, as this year showed, will prove that.
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so we need to recruit this kid named Syracuse Zone.
Deleted member 2438
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I made it 5 bricks higher than you!
hmm, I am surprised this tidbit went by with no mention, especially considering the knowledgeable poster who mentioned it.
Illinidreamin
- Paris, IL.
I believe by the tweet from a week ago from BU himself congratulating Leron on his decision its a done deal. Black is gone. Lets get next man in line and put the hustle in our bustle!!!
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Hinson isn't at Liddell's level, but getting Hinson would ease the urgency to get Liddell -- and probably lessen the pain of Liddell going elsewhere.
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Granted, I generally have no idea what I'm talking about when it comes to recruiting, and I've never had access to "inside information". But I have assumed that Ramey would end up at Mizzou from the very beginning. Even when the so-called insiders were saying "no way".
It's too perfect of a fit. They have talented bigs but no guards. Cuonzo is a great recruiter. He's from the STL area. It just seems to make sense.
Ramey to Illinois, however, never made sense to me.
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