Illinois Hoops Recruiting Thread (March 2021)

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#1,726      

skyIdub

Winged Warrior
If anyone is trying to convince themselves you don't need top talent to win big, you're wrong.

This is the best season we've had since 2005. We were lead by guys ranked 32 Ayo, 33 Miller, 46 Kofi, 46 Curbelo, 109 Frazier. That 2005 team was led by guys ranked (from memory) 24 Dee, 48 Deron, 66 Powell, 77 Augie, 110 Luther.

Guys like Goode and Melendez are great pieces, but stars win games. Stars win championships. Land them or get used to being middle of the pack.

So....Luther at 110 and Frazier at 109 are in your examples as "stars"?

But Melendez at 97 and Goode at 94 are....just great pieces?

The ratings and stars argument holds some water, but by your own examples....players with "middle of the pack" ratings....turn out to be stars.
 
#1,727      
So....Luther at 110 and Frazier at 109 are in your examples as "stars"?

But Melendez at 97 and Goode at 94 are....just great pieces?

The ratings and stars argument holds some water, but by your own examples....players with "middle of the pack" ratings....turn out to be stars.

So you conveniently ignored all the others. Could trent and luther lead a team to the heights the 2005 and 2021 teams did if they were the leaders and best players? For me that answer is very easy.

The point was quite clear, you need stars to win big. Nowhere did I saw every player needs to be a highly ranked star.
 
#1,728      
If anyone is trying to convince themselves you don't need top talent to win big, you're wrong.

This is the best season we've had since 2005. We were lead by guys ranked 32 Ayo, 33 Miller, 46 Kofi, 46 Curbelo, 109 Frazier. That 2005 team was led by guys ranked (from memory) 24 Dee, 48 Deron, 66 Powell, 77 Augie, 110 Luther.

Guys like Goode and Melendez are great pieces, but stars win games. Stars win championships. Land them or get used to being middle of the pack.
(edit: as skyIdub said...) couldn't Goode and Melendez be the pieces in the Augie to Luther/Frazier range, in this example? The key piece here seems to be what it's always been: can we lock down the state, particularly Chicago? So far, results are pretty promising given the amount of time the staff's been here, with Hopkins the main disappointment. If we can feel confident we'll get at least half of our needed star-level players from in-state, then it makes it so much easier to fill out the roster with the pieces from seemingly random connections (Frazier, Curbelo, Hawkins, etc.) that complete the team.
 
#1,729      

skyIdub

Winged Warrior
So you conveniently ignored all the others. Could trent and luther lead a team to the heights the 2005 and 2021 teams did if they were the leaders and best players? For me that answer is very easy.

The point was quite clear, you need stars to win big. Nowhere did I saw every player needs to be a highly ranked star.

I'm not ignoring the others, some of the stars you mentioned will still be on the team...so Goode and Melendez still have "stars" around them, and could turn out to be stars and leaders as well.

I responded with question marks, seeking clarification, so maybe your point wasn't "quite clear" to me.
 
#1,730      
So you conveniently ignored all the others. Could trent and luther lead a team to the heights the 2005 and 2021 teams did if they were the leaders and best players? For me that answer is very easy.

The point was quite clear, you need stars to win big. Nowhere did I saw every player needs to be a highly ranked star.
But we still have #33 Miller and #46 Curbelo (and maybe even #46 Kofi), so they're already not the best players. And those guys could be playing together for 3 years.
 
#1,731      

sacraig

The desert
The premise that recruiting outcomes are based strictly on basketball/program stuff is a fallacy. Times infinity for a lot of highly ranked kids. Times infinity factorial for kids who come from nothing. Obviously, there are exceptions. But there's most definitely a quid pro quo in a lot of these...transactions.

Individual recruiting outcomes aren't, but on average, I'd be willing to bet they still are (for the most part).
 
#1,732      
What's wild to me is that, ok we get beat out by the likes of Kentucky, UNC, Kansas, Duke for these top guys, fine I can understand. We lose out to ASU from time to time, ok I can take that too. But how can we go a whole recruiting cycle, with the trend this team is currently on, without landing even one of these top 30, top 40 type players (when we've been targeting a lot of them, pretty heavily).

And we never seem to land a top 10/top 20 guy. They're not all going to blue bloods, so you'd think we'd luck out with a top ten guy at some point. It's just kind of strange.

Just to be clear, I dont think the staff is doing a bad job, just seems like our luck is really bad this cycle for whatever reason.
 
#1,733      
If anyone is trying to convince themselves you don't need top talent to win big, you're wrong.

This is the best season we've had since 2005. We were lead by guys ranked 32 Ayo, 33 Miller, 46 Kofi, 46 Curbelo, 109 Frazier. That 2005 team was led by guys ranked (from memory) 24 Dee, 48 Deron, 66 Powell, 77 Augie, 110 Luther.

Guys like Goode and Melendez are great pieces, but stars win games. Stars win championships. Land them or get used to being middle of the pack.
Too busy to look it up....but how did Loyola's recruits rank compared to the Illini this year???
 
#1,734      
Too busy to look it up....but how did Loyola's recruits rank compared to the Illini this year???

Not a fair question.

Recruiting is about stars/ranking, etc.

Beating a higher ranking team is about coaching, etc.

Apples and oranges
 
#1,735      
ASU = coeds Mecca
For as long as I can remember, ASU has been known for nice weather, pretty girls, and...let's say a casual attitude toward academic performance. That has to sound really good to a high school kid with little interest in actually getting or using a degree. We also didn't do much to burnish our appeal in the last week or so.
 
#1,736      

mhuml32

Cincinnati, OH
Too busy to look it up....but how did Loyola's recruits rank compared to the Illini this year???

"I know there is a mountain of data out there that the best teams recruit the best players year-over-year, but let's focus on this outlier..."
 
#1,738      
I think the staff agreed with this assessment. That's why Reggie Bass is a future Illini.

I'm not sure if Bass is a point or a combo or how the staff views that. With Underwood putting such a premium on passing I wouldn't be surprised to see them take another guard that slides over into the true point role a bit more but with that being said maybe the staff views Bass as that guy 🤷‍♂️ 🤷‍♂️ 🤷‍♂️ 🤷‍♂️
 
#1,739      
What's wild to me is that, ok we get beat out by the likes of Kentucky, UNC, Kansas, Duke for these top guys, fine I can understand. We lose out to ASU from time to time, ok I can take that too. But how can we go a whole recruiting cycle, with the trend this team is currently on, without landing even one of these top 30, top 40 type players (when we've been targeting a lot of them, pretty heavily).

And we never seem to land a top 10/top 20 guy. They're not all going to blue bloods, so you'd think we'd luck out with a top ten guy at some point. It's just kind of strange.

Just to be clear, I dont think the staff is doing a bad job, just seems like our luck is really bad this cycle for whatever reason.
ASU is hiring a handler to get him last second there's just not much we can do about that.

That kind of short term thinking is how you destroy a roster like Cuonzo Martin has done yet again at Mizzou.

The funny thing is in a lot of these "package deals" with the way transferring is going once people get paid don't be shocked to see even more sophomore year transfers.
 
#1,740      
Not a fair question.

Recruiting is about stars/ranking, etc.

Beating a higher ranking team is about coaching, etc.

Apples and oranges
How is it not a fair question.....the post I was responding to was making the claim that to win big you have to recruit top talent and gave the 05 team as a comparison to this years team.....and I don't totally disagree with this statement, but Loyola has had a pretty good year and some have them getting to the elite 8 or farther....was just wondering how their current roster compared to ours with ranked recruits....I'm guessing their rankings are significantly lower than our current players...the post I was responding to said nothing about coaching....just player rankings.....all I was suggesting is that highly ranked players are not always necessary to win....so in responding to the post I think it's a pretty fair question
 
#1,741      
Love adding a shooter. Podz reminds me of a situation with an SIU commit - Foster Wonders. He's averaging absurd numbers in the UP of Michigan. Playing against lackluster competition though. The SIU fans are unsure how he will translate as well.

I think he is an excellent pick up if it comes to fruiton.
 
#1,742      
And those guys could be playing together for 3 years.
This. In an age of increasing transfers + more top kids going immediately pro (not to mention possible NBA rule changes making that even more relevant), it's critical to find the guys that will be both productive and will want to stay here for at least two years. If we can continue to see improvement amongst the guys that come (getting as many as possible drafted, too) and a desire to want to stay here, everything recruiting-wise -- including nabbing those top 50 targets -- will take care of itself.
 
#1,743      

Deleted member 747903

D
Guest
ASU is hiring a handler to get him last second there's just not much we can do about that.

That kind of short term thinking is how you destroy a roster like Cuonzo Martin has done yet again at Mizzou.

The funny thing is in a lot of these "package deals" with the way transferring is going once people get paid don't be shocked to see even more sophomore year transfers.

Spot on. I never want to see us stoop this low in terms of trying to win recruiting battles. Look at where ASU, Mizzou, Memphis etc are. Not where we want to be that's for sure.
 
#1,744      
Spot on. I never want to see us stoop this low in terms of trying to win recruiting battles. Look at where ASU, Mizzou, Memphis etc are. Not where we want to be that's for sure.
Just to play devil's advocate here, is Cory Patterson (Football) not a similar situation? In his case, it worked out and he's proven himself to be serviceable.

Disclaimer: I agree that in most cases, this is a short-sighted approach
 
#1,745      

sacraig

The desert
Not a fair question.

Recruiting is about stars/ranking, etc.

Beating a higher ranking team is about coaching, etc.

Apples and oranges

It's a little of both. Underwood got outcoached and our guys got outplayed, true. But there is a much larger margin of error for someone coaching a bunch of 5-star athletes against a team of IMPE all-stars.
 
#1,746      

JFGsCoffeeMug

BU:1 Trash cans:0
Chicago
us ->
sign GIF
<- top recruits
 
#1,747      

sacraig

The desert
Just to play devil's advocate here, is Cory Patterson (Football) not a similar situation? In his case, it worked out and he's proven himself to be serviceable.

Disclaimer: I agree that in most cases, this is a short-sighted approach

If you can find a guy who with connections to a current crop of great recruits and can actually coach at the D1 level, then you scoop that person up and they can work for you for a long time. See: Coleman, Chin.

If you are just hiring a guy who is legitimately unqualified so you can get at their high school player/son/mentee etc., it's not likely to help in the long term and is more likely to hurt once that one player is gone and you are left with a subpar staff member instead of one who can keep the momentum rolling. See: Porter, Michael, Sr.

I don't know where Patterson falls. He seems to be a serviceable coach, but also our football team still stunk, so I wouldn't call that a success or a failure yet.
 
#1,748      
Just to be clear, I dont think the staff is doing a bad job, just seems like our luck is really bad this cycle for whatever reason.
Last weekend was the Illini's first tournament appearance since 2013. Our current coaching staff had losing records their first two years here. Some of the kids being pursued this cycle have never stepped on campus or met the coaches in person due to the pandemic. Until very recently, the Illini have been an afterthought to kids who are now in high school; they were toddlers the last time we were relevant. Give it time. The current publicity should help in '22, '23 and down the road, if the success can be sustained.
 
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#1,749      
I feel like I know what's coming, but I'm going to ask anyway - outside of hiring someone in a recruit's circle, what is the draw of ASU?
As a U of A alum, I feel like I can offer a credible answer. Walking to class in Nov. thru March is much easier due to weather and scenery. Of course watching the scenery may lead to neck injury. It has little to do with basketball, facilities, coaches, and degree value.
 
#1,750      
Uh... What? We ARE talking at 1 player at a time. We didn't lose to the field with Baokye. We seemingly will lose to ASU.

The field is a useful content when you're months out from a commitment, but when the field has narrowed, it's school vs. school.
Uh the field is who we are against (always) and that is what I am saying.

When you make a bet on Tiger vs the field, you don’t “re-bet” on the last day... your bet is still, and always, tiger vs the field.

You are free to “uh...what” me if you’d like, but facts are facts. What % of recruits that we offer do we get? A very low %.
Not because we were beaten by 1 school each time, but Bc we were beaten by the field, every time.

If you look at it as “us vs one other school”, you will get irrationally frustrated and angry, bc no matter what the reports say, you never really know who the “final few” are.

Boom. Last day new school. How did that happen?!

the field. That’s how. ;)
 
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