Illinois Hoops Recruiting Thread (October 2016)

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#626      
Tevo
CAHALL15 said:
It depends who you're talking about. BP3 and DJ Richardson enjoyed their best seasons under Groce. Egwu certainly did get better defensively or at least finally got some recognition for his play. Rayvonte Rice certainly improved in multiple areas including his shooting to the point where he was a 40% 3pt shooter. Malcolm Hill lead the team last year in ppg, rpg, apg, was 2nd in bpg and spg. Morgan enjoyed his best season last year and looked like a legitimate Big Ten froncourt player. Finke, who was a freshman last year, definitely didn't play like a boderline 3/4 star recruit. So there are numerous examples to point to player development under Groce and I expect we will see the same this year.
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I have been one of those banging the "I haven't been impressed with the development" drum, but you're right in all of these examples. And yet, the team has still been bad. Why is that? I'm not asking rhetorically -- if numerous players have gotten better each season with Groce, why aren't we better? Last year, we can point to injuries. Is everything else laid at the doorstep of "no point guard"? And if so, why haven't our point guards gotten better, in years 2, 3 and 4, to at least let the other improved players carry the team?
 
#627      
Cubby Blue
BirdDog9048 said:
Agree with Joel and combes. I can't think of any players that I would consider to have regressed under Groce. Some players maybe weren't as good or didn't improve as much as we would have hoped, but no one got worse.
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I think that is the caveat. There are always going to be some kids that peak early, some that have normal progression, and some that improve by leaps and bounds.

This is true of shooting. It seems to me that there are kids that do not improve shooting (Jaylon, Legion, Crandall as examples while at U of I), improve only slightly (DJ and BP both shot as well early as they did late) or improve greatly while here (Kevin Turner, Roger Powell, Deron, Dee, Luther, Tisdale and most notably Kedall Gill and Derek Harper). Likewise, I think you can put Cory Bradford in the category of not improving at all shooting. He was just dang good and consistent the whole time he was here.
 
#628      
Cubby Blue
Tevo said:
I have been one of those banging the "I haven't been impressed with the development" drum, but you're right in all of these examples. And yet, the team has still been bad. Why is that? I'm not asking rhetorically -- if numerous players have gotten better each season with Groce, why aren't we better? Last year, we can point to injuries. Is everything else laid at the doorstep of "no point guard"? And if so, why haven't our point guards gotten better, in years 2, 3 and 4, to at least let the other improved players carry the team?
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Tracy Abrams did get better in years 2 and 3. Was it enough? ;)

And hopefully we get a leap in year 4. :thumb:
 
#629      
troym22
The more I think about it, the more I think that it does have a lot more to do with their rankings and hype coming out of high school that leads to that "unfulfilled potential" thought
 
#634      
sacraig
Indy Orange said:
Trust me, I believe Lefty has "sources", but these "sources" are wrong.
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You know, I was on the fence about who to trust until you just said "trust me." I don't know how that kind of evidence can be refuted.
 
#639      
BIzzy
Indy Orange said:
Not long.
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If thats true then Justin Smith will be carrying Wilkes jockstrap around for exercise....and he has to show up in Champaign to be reminded what a goofy choice he made...jeesh
 
#640      
CmonKreg
BIzzy said:
If thats true then Justin Smith will be carrying Wilkes jockstrap around for exercise....and he has to show up in Champaign to be reminded what a goofy choice he made...jeesh
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Well he would have been carrying around DJ Williams jock strap here. I guess it's just a matter of who's jock strap is better for holding.


Having said that, why SO QUIET on Kiir???? He is a huge need recruit.
 
#645      
RichBradIllini
FeelYourPaign said:
Question. How much development do you expect beyond a player's ceiling?
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troym22 said:
What we really need to finally see is development of talent. We've all witnessed too many 4 star, top-100 recruits come to Illinois and look like a 2-star recruit. Eventually it has to happen. But, we all have been around long enough to look at the recruits Illinois is targeting, and make a pretty good assessment of how they might fare here, based on comparisons of numerous examples that have played for Illini in the past.
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I meant to quote the above so my point is a bit out of context. Example: Mike Shaw came to UI rated in the top 100. Shaw peaked early, transferred and never lived up to his ranking. It wasn't a player development issue as much as it was Shaw being overrated and never living up to his rankings. I think most cases of top 100 recruits coming to UI and looking like 2 star recruits tend to be more like Shaw's case of hitting a ceiling rather than not developing.
 
#648      
CAHALL15
Tevo said:
I have been one of those banging the "I haven't been impressed with the development" drum, but you're right in all of these examples. And yet, the team has still been bad. Why is that? I'm not asking rhetorically -- if numerous players have gotten better each season with Groce, why aren't we better? Last year, we can point to injuries. Is everything else laid at the doorstep of "no point guard"? And if so, why haven't our point guards gotten better, in years 2, 3 and 4, to at least let the other improved players carry the team?
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I really do believe that the point guard is a part of it. It is the QB of the basketball team. In Groce's ideal world we'd have a PG who is capable of scoring in double digits on a particular night and Tate, Lewis, and Starks have not been that. Starks was close but his shot selection was not good, to put it mildly. Has Tate gotten better? Sure, but his shooting is still pretty bad. Maybe he reached his ceiling. Up until last year, it seemed our bigs had not gotten any better as Egwu never developed a post game, but Morgan and Finke both got better as I previously said. In my opinion it's a combo of toxic players (Darius and the Seton Hall transfer), lack of depth, injuries especially to the PG position, and strength and conditioning up until Fletch got here. The coaches definitely share some of this blame, but it's hard to blame them during in game situations when Jaylon Tate and Khalid Lewis are your only options.
 
#649      
Obelix
CAHALL15 said:
I really do believe that the point guard is a part of it. It is the QB of the basketball team. In Groce's ideal world we'd have a PG who is capable of scoring in double digits on a particular night and Tate, Lewis, and Starks have not been that. Starks was close but his shot selection was not good, to put it mildly. Has Tate gotten better? Sure, but his shooting is still pretty bad. Maybe he reached his ceiling. Up until last year, it seemed our bigs had not gotten any better as Egwu never developed a post game, but Morgan and Finke both got better as I previously said. In my opinion it's a combo of toxic players (Darius and the Seton Hall transfer), lack of depth, injuries especially to the PG position, and strength and conditioning up until Fletch got here. The coaches definitely share some of this blame, but it's hard to blame them during in game situations when Jaylon Tate and Khalid Lewis are your only options.
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While overall recruiting has been OK during the Groce era, positional recruiting has not been good. Huge gaps indeed, not only at PG but also in the post so far in his tenure. Thorne has been the only strong post presence, but obviously his career was cut short last year due to injury.

The second aspect is that people confuse "players have not regressed" with "strong player development." Two different things. Illinois has only placed just one player on the second all-B1G team (Hill), and just one as a consensus third all-B1G team (Paul - DJ RIchardson was 3rd in one of the two polls). Combined with the positional recruiting gap, that will not be enough to elevate the team into the upper echelon in the B1G.
 
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#650      
jonnymo
Calvin said:
Interesting view.
I don't really care much about the first two, and wouldn’t list them.
The next 2 are REALLY important, and Groce is a great recruiter. I think part of that is that he's a player's coach (more on that). Talent evaluation, I'm not convinced he's all that great simply based on results and how many guys have or are expected to make it to the league. Give him time, though, there’s a long burn on that one.
Development, I’d give him a little more credit because the offseason program seems solid. He puts a premium on gym rats and motor, and I think development reflects that. Skill-wise, I’d call it a mixed bag.

Your last two are basically execution, and I haven’t been impressed lately (I don’t think anyone really has been). The way I’d label it is something you don’t list, which is getting the players really motivated about the game day, with a vision of how they will win. It’s something I think a lot of ‘player’s coaches’ struggle with. Kruger was fantastic with it IMO, Self struggled with it, and Weber was so-so with it. The good news is that coaches that aren’t great with it sometimes find players who are, so it works out on the floor. When that fails, sometimes just getting a lot of talent helps. Groce has passion for the game, I just think he’s struggled to get the most of out his pieces. I’ll be really curious to watch how that goes this season with a stronger roster


There’s a time and a place to play arm-chair AD, and that time will be much later in the season. We’re in it for the season, so let’s let it play out.
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I personally feel speaker and organizational skills are very important. Great speakers can convey what they want which I think contributes greatly to player development. Organizational skills allow you to put everything together. Practices, individual workouts, team/individual meetings, planning out your days and weeks, ect.

I think you're right also on player development also. After thinking about it more I believe Groce is solid average to slightly above average. Idt he's Beiline good or Izzo good but he's slightly better than most coaches.

But in game I just think he lacks big time. He needs either better assistants or maybe his assistants are good but he doesn't listen to them
 
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