This fanbase is so Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde it is ridiculous. It seems like only yesterday people were calling him John F***ing Groce, and now so many are ready to run him out of town. Many wanted to extend him and lock him into a long term deal before the big boys came calling and now many want to get rid of him before his first recruiting class has even made it to his senior season.
John Groce at Illinois
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It has nothing to do with kids remembering 2005. It has to do with charisma, the right personality, and ability to connect with today's players. If you look at today's best recruiters, it has nothing to do with any players remembering their playing days.
Deon and Roger are simply first class individuals and were great Illini. But I do not believe they have the right personality to become top recruiters. JMO.
Dee is well known throughout the area and I am sure his PR tour as the AD's assistant hasn't hurt in that regard. As was already mentioned charisma goes a long way. There is no way Dee wouldn't resonate with anyone that has an ounce of orange in their blood. His enthusiasm is infectious. May I present exhibit A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03Ei_6gcMps
Posters like to pick on Parham but I talk to many coaches (HS and AAU) and if there was a change right now, Parham should probably be the least logical choice to be replaced. Parham is hardly our problem in recruiting.
Yea but he is the one without prior connection to Groce. Chances are if someone is going to go it is the one the head coach has the least history with.
Yes ... but we don't have them, so a) this is also JG's job and b) maybe schemes should change?
I do not think that the criterion for change is to get rid of the person who has been with you the least time. By the same token, if you hire Dee and need further changes, then Dee should be the first one out?
This is a business, and coaches should be evaluated based on skills and value they provide. It's a tough decision, but this should not be about a personal change depending on duration of relationship.
Not disagreeing it should work like that but it is likely that duration of relationship plays a big role in the decision by Groce.
It certainly makes it a tough decision.
Do you believe they have the ability to be top coaches? Either in the X's and O's, or in player development? If they were to be great coaches, would they be good enough to be serviceable recruiters?
Just wondering if one of them would be good enough at coaching to theoretically help Groce survive.
I do not know about that. These are two names frequently mentioned as assistants and recruiters so the (my) opinion stated is in this context. At this point, they are working their way as assistants so they both have a long way to go to become top coaches. If you are asking whether hiring any of the two would significantly change our ability to win games given existing talent level and positional gaps, my opinion is no. Not because of Deon/Roger, but IMO we need to hire an assistant with strong recruiting potential and charisma.
frozenrope9190
- Aurora, IL
^^ copied a couple posts from the Michigan Postgame thread to start this thread.
As posts have been all over the place in just about every thread regarding the Groce Era at Illinois, here's a central thread for the discussion for the remainder of 2015-2016.
Topics include John Groce's time at Illinois, the present situation & speculations about the future.
The pregame, game & postgame threads will now be specifically about those games. If you feel like discussing/venting about the Groce Era during or after a game (posts that are not specifically about that game), please utilize this thread
The recruiting thread will be about recruiting news. Discussions about recruiting as an evaluation of the Groce Era should be made in this thread :thumb:
Thank you, and Go
Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.
IlliniRon
Illini Basketball Fan Forever
- Ft Worth, Texas
I'm not ready to give up on Coach Groce yet. Let's see what happens this season and how the recruiting goes. Need to give him one more year, after all of these injuries. This all changes if some great coach becomes available, but not sure who that would be.
IlliniFan12
- Cedar Falls, IA
Looking back at it, whiffing on both Brunson and Evans seems like it was a turning point (in the wrong direction) for Groce. JMO
IMHO, the biggest loss was Nic Moore. He would still be playing this year if he would have transferred to UI. Not sure what happened on this one, because he was actually scheduled for an official visit that was abruptly canceled at the last minute. Of course he followed his coach to SMU, but I think he was there for the taking. Groce went the all in route with DJax and we all know how that ended up. But I can't imagine what we would have looked like with Nic Moore as the PG for the last 3 years.
It's simply the difference between the two sports. Football is more long term thinking, the vast majority of athletes enter college with the plan to be there, 4 or even 5 years. In basketball, many will leave before 4 years, either through early entry to the NBA or a transfer if they aren't getting significant minutes after a season or two. And a football coach is typically expected to be given 4-5 years to turn a program around because it's rare to get very many recruits that can start playing immediately due to the need for physical maturity. Contrast with hoops where a new coach can land a couple of top frosh and immediately change the team's fortunes in one off season.
In our particular case, the main problem with Cubit's deal is starting him off with 2 years. It's one thing to have a coach with 2 years left, it's completely different to put him in that situation from the beginning. Also I rarely hear anyone questioning a college bball coach's contract length. If anything, it's the opposite problem, i.e. Crean and his huge buyout because he had a 10 year deal.
Groce may have some difficulties selling his program to the 2017 recruits, but it's going to be due to the lack of success on the court, not because his contract runs out in 2019.
If the fan base is debating which assistant coach should be replaced, doesn't that speak volumes about the head coach? After the Weber era, (Above average x and o coach, decent recruiter, poor at pressers) the pendulum has swung too far the other way. Groce's best talents are his ability to win press conferences, his energy, his charisma with the fan base. Unfortunately we are looking at a 3rd straight year without an NCAA bid, coupled with a very poor end to last season. Ironically, the injury debacle may save his job for another year. But how rational is it to point to an injured 5th year Weber recruit, and an injured 5th year transfer center, as prime reasons for a 4th year coach not remotely meet expectations?
Everyone wants to see Groce succeed, and succeed big. But there are many question marks about the basketball program. And how many current juniors are going to be eager to join the Illini, with a coach that will make everyone's hot seat list? Sometimes, unfortunately, things just don't work out.
Everyone wants to see Groce succeed, and succeed big. But there are many question marks about the basketball program. And how many current juniors are going to be eager to join the Illini, with a coach that will make everyone's hot seat list? Sometimes, unfortunately, things just don't work out.
Sal Iacuzzo
- Yonkers, NY
Not pursuing Maurice Watson Jr is another failure
Groce had a lot of chances to get it right but didn't
Its a results business. Unless the results get better pretty soon, or at least start showing a significant upward movement, he won't survive past next year. Whether he survives after this season depends on who they hire as AD, and what problems he/she decides to solve first.
Groce is very likable, and I think everyone wants him to succeed - but BW got fired for results that were a lot better than what we've seen since.
Groce is very likable, and I think everyone wants him to succeed - but BW got fired for results that were a lot better than what we've seen since.
Tevo
- Wilmette, IL
I'm curious how posters know so much about which assistant coaches are "good" or not. I would think that they are all equally to blame for the team's failures, but none so much as Groce. Of course, as the man in charge, Groce has the luxury of replacing them, and as the head of a multi-million dollar business, he needs to do whatever is necessary to improve things. An important question, to me, is: Is Groce a good enough head coach to be able to recognize what his team needs most, and what changes need to be made to address those things? If his only answer is "recruit better" or "coach better" then he is not a good head coach.
Personally, I don't believe good head coaches are made by hiring great assistants. I believe great assistants and therefore great staffs are made by excellent head coaches. The head coach must set the schemes and the direction/tone for recruiting. They take input from the assistants, and adjust to what their assistants do well/poorly, just as they do with players, but it all starts with the HC.
Personally, I don't believe good head coaches are made by hiring great assistants. I believe great assistants and therefore great staffs are made by excellent head coaches. The head coach must set the schemes and the direction/tone for recruiting. They take input from the assistants, and adjust to what their assistants do well/poorly, just as they do with players, but it all starts with the HC.
If you talk to coaches (HS and AAU) they will tell you how they feel about assistants, especially with respect to recruiting. While some are more diplomatic with regards to their comments about HC, depending on how well you know them, they usually let you know how they feel about assistants.
Coaches and players are not dumb either, they know where programs and HCs stand, and they know once players get to college that it is the HC who calls the shots, and the one who defines the program. But assistants provide tremendous value, some much more than others, and while restricted by the value of the HC, they have individual talents independent of the HC.
If Groce is worth his salt, he would surround himself with complementary assistants. There are so many shortcomings with his coaching over the previous years, that one has to wonder if he either doesn't listen to his assistants or his assistants are just as bad at teaching and game management.
The idea that replacing an assistant or two will right this ship is silly. If you have to pick someone's subordinates for them, they are not an effective leader. If a guy can't coach, you don't hire someone to teach him how to coach. You hire a new coach.
As others have stated, I have been unimpressed with Groce as both a recruiter and an x's and o's guy. We can go back and forth on the recruiting, but even if the recruiting picks up, I just don't see the product on the floor ever being that great. In my opinion, he's in the Pat Kennedy mold of coaching... all sizzle, no steak.
As others have stated, I have been unimpressed with Groce as both a recruiter and an x's and o's guy. We can go back and forth on the recruiting, but even if the recruiting picks up, I just don't see the product on the floor ever being that great. In my opinion, he's in the Pat Kennedy mold of coaching... all sizzle, no steak.
FeelYourPaign
- So Cal
I've been wavering on whether or not even weigh in on this topic. Everything I feel has been said by someone already. but no one has boiled my perspective down better than this pithy little summary. :thumb:
BillyBob1
- Champaign
If Synder had kept his commitment, those two wouldn't have mattered.
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