John Groce at Illinois

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#51      

Greensboro

Greensboro
Greensboro
HeartofaChampion said:
* JG has to get the team back into the tournament not only next year but for the foreseeable future to retain his job long term here. UI cannot settle for occasionally making the Dance. The new AD needs to set the bar high again and expect the program to be a perennial tournament team again starting in 2016-17. If MT and LB are back next year, we'll have more than enough talent and experience to return to the tournament. 2018 would then be JG's ultimate test if this happens. (I don't have much hope for TA next year. He'll hopefully be back, but as a backup after 2 full seasons of not playing and coming off 2 major surgeries.) Making the Dance every other year or less should not cut it. If JG survives this year and misses the Dance next year, he's gone. If he survives this year, gets us to the Dance in 2017 and misses the Dance in 2018, he's gone. High expectations need to be in order again, especially after the renovation of the AH. UI can and should return to 2000s and 1980s form in the very near future. Do not settle for mediocrity. 2016 should be the last season we don't make the Dance for at least a few years, if not longer. Even BW got us to the Dance nearly every year for about a decade.
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Good post.

I think 2017 will be a tough test for us and Groce in this scenario. I think we make the dance next year, but then in 2017 we are reloading; Tate, Nunn, Hill, Maverick, and likely/maybe Abrams & Thorne. We will likely bring in a bunch of freshman to add to what looks like a decent core of upper class players with Black and the current freshman...but we are likely to be replacing starters at 4 positions... counting on a sophomore TJL as the only returning pg & badly need some help for Black & Finke to hold down the 5.
 
#53      

Give it to Greene

G
Give it to Greene

GeorgiaIllini said:
Its a results business. Unless the results get better pretty soon, or at least start showing a significant upward movement, he won't survive past next year. Whether he survives after this season depends on who they hire as AD, and what problems he/she decides to solve first.

Groce is very likable, and I think everyone wants him to succeed - but BW got fired for results that were a lot better than what we've seen since.
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Frankly, this says it all, and truly depends on which problems they believe need to be solved first. Results and dollars are the only considerations in this business.


FeelYourPaign said:
I've been wavering on whether or not even weigh in on this topic. Everything I feel has been said by someone already. but no one has boiled my perspective down better than this pithy little summary. :thumb:
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Being a newbie, I was also reluctant to post, but we all must begin somewhere, sometime....
 
#54      

VictoryIllinois77

VictoryIllinois77
VictoryIllinois77
Greensboro said:
Good post.

I think 2017 will be a tough test for us and Groce in this scenario. I think we make the dance next year, but then in 2017 we are reloading; Tate, Nunn, Hill, Maverick, and likely/maybe Abrams & Thorne. We will likely bring in a bunch of freshman to add to what looks like a decent core of upper class players with Black and the current freshman...but we are likely to be replacing starters at 4 positions... counting on a sophomore TJL as the only returning pg & badly need some help for Black & Finke to hold down the 5.
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I completely agree.

I would go as far as to say 2017 will determine the direction that our basketball program goes in for years to come.

If we can have a successful 2017 with our talented, senior dominated team it will be huge for the program. We need to make the NCAA tournament that year.

On top of having a successful season, Groce HAS to take advantage of the talented recruiting class that year and get some big time players to commit to us to replace guys like Nunn, Hill, Abrams, and Thorne. If we can get a recruiting class that looks something like Tilmon, Williams, and Goodwin, that will be the best recruiting class since the year of Dee Brown, Deron Williams, and James Augustine.

So with that being said, 2017 isn't only important to have a good season and take advantage of our senior dominated team, its got to be a huge recruiting year as well. If we can take advantage of 2017, then Groce keeps his job and hopefully we can get this thing really rolling. If not, then its time to push the restart button yet again.
 
#55      

Tevo

Tevo
Wilmette, IL
Tevo
brosox said:
Am I the only one here who thinks this thread is counter-productive? I think that even the most strident anti- Groce critic has to acknowledge that, barring Beckman-like allegations of misconduct, Groce will be coaching the team next year. Plus, most of us believe that the 2017 recruiting class is crucial for our future development. So, what do we do to help our recruiting? We start a thread to show that our coach is not supported by the most die- hard of fans. That is a really good way to convince players and their families to choose our school. And here I thought it was just our administration that was disfunctional. Instead of all this speculation and criticism, wouldn't it just be better for us to accept this year for what it is, hope that we actually get to play next year with the players we have recruited, and let next year play out?
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This argument has been mentioned a number of times by different people. Is the idea that by having disgruntled fans simply not post to one message board, we'll be able to hide our disappointment with the way things have been going? Do we think recruits are so blind they won't be able to tell how the fans really feel, whether or not we post? Seen another way, the recruits should see that the Illini fans are truly fans of the program and that we are constantly cheering, hoping and praying our team will be great. We're not satisfied with mediocre, just as the administration shouldn't be, the coaches shouldn't be, and the players shouldn't be! We're not insulting the coaches or the players, we're saying they need to do better -- which EVERYONE already knows.

Recruits need to have their eyes open, and make the best decision for them. If they are so easily turned away that a few posters on a message board will make them gun shy, then they probably aren't the right guys for a tough program, in a tough conference, where the fans expect hard work, good character and toughness, and then reward the players and coaches mightily when they show it.
 
#56      

IntenselyOrange

I
IntenselyOrange
IlliniBrave75 said:
This fanbase is so Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde it is ridiculous. It seems like only yesterday people were calling him John F***ing Groce, and now so many are ready to run him out of town. Many wanted to extend him and lock him into a long term deal before the big boys came calling and now many want to get rid of him before his first recruiting class has even made it to his senior season.
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No, I think it's just the people who are the loudest has changed. Many of us questioned JG at his hiring based on his poor conference record at Ohio. Many of us failed to buy into his being in the discussion for top recruits and focused instead on the fact that we didn't actually get those guys.

Some fans, like myself, are cautiously optimistic. Others always see the glass 90% full, and see nothing but positives. Those who were cautiously optimistic are now seeing what they feared play out. And it hurts to see a team you care about suffer for such an extended period of time.
 
#57      

CAHALL15

C
Central Illinois
CAHALL15
Ultimately, I agree with the opening post of this thread. The injuries this year are ridiculous. Next year, tournament team or he's gone.

I really like Groce as a person and as a leader. I'm on the fence, at times, with his coaching ability. I think changes in his staff may be in order. Obviously bringing Dee on is a no brainier. I also like the idea of bringing Deon Thomas in as well to coach the bigs. Perhaps Ford is a culprit of lagging growth from the frontcourt.

I can't think of a coach who would be a "splash" hire who would be better than Groce. It would be some mid major with some tournament success much like Groce. No one is clamoring for this job, unfortunately. Groce gives us the best chance to land top guys in 2017 unless there is some Midwest coach who has contacted and recruited the same players.
 
#58      

OldILLFan

O
OldILLFan
Heres what it would take too get a Real good replacement 4 to 5 Mil. Bucks a year.. So we all know UofI will not pay that so.. Who ever we get will not be much better.. So for now I will hope things Go better....
 
#59      

othawhitemeat

O
othawhitemeat
CAHALL15 said:
Ultimately, I agree with the opening post of this thread. The injuries this year are ridiculous. Next year, tournament team or he's gone.

I really like Groce as a person and as a leader. I'm on the fence, at times, with his coaching ability. I think changes in his staff may be in order. Obviously bringing Dee on is a no brainier. I also like the idea of bringing Deon Thomas in as well to coach the bigs. Perhaps Ford is a culprit of lagging growth from the frontcourt.

I can't think of a coach who would be a "splash" hire who would be better than Groce. It would be some mid major with some tournament success much like Groce. No one is clamoring for this job, unfortunately. Groce gives us the best chance to land top guys in 2017 unless there is some Midwest coach who has contacted and recruited the same players.
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Would Gregg Marshall be interested? What about Chris Mack? Groce had a mediocre record with his team getting hot with a very good point guard. I really like Groce but he cannot coach and I don't see the fixture long term.
 
#60      

Adnarel

A
Adnarel
Dan picked a great OP for this thread.

It's probably the most clear-headed and accurate assessment of what's going on.
 
#61      

Ulysses Everett McGill

Ulysses Everett McGill
Ulysses Everett McGill
GeorgiaIllini said:
Whether he survives after this season depends on who they hire as AD, and what problems he/she decides to solve first.
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Agree with your post, but I do wonder how, with the train wreck existing in the FB program, an AD would come into the job and address the hoops situation first. JG is here through next season IMO, and after that depends on where we're at then. He's got a lot of wood to chop in the next 18 months.
 
#62      

illinitiger

I
illinitiger
Tevo said:
This argument has been mentioned a number of times by different people. Is the idea that by having disgruntled fans simply not post to one message board, we'll be able to hide our disappointment with the way things have been going? Do we think recruits are so blind they won't be able to tell how the fans really feel, whether or not we post? Seen another way, the recruits should see that the Illini fans are truly fans of the program and that we are constantly cheering, hoping and praying our team will be great. We're not satisfied with mediocre, just as the administration shouldn't be, the coaches shouldn't be, and the players shouldn't be! We're not insulting the coaches or the players, we're saying they need to do better -- which EVERYONE already knows.

Recruits need to have their eyes open, and make the best decision for them. If they are so easily turned away that a few posters on a message board will make them gun shy, then they probably aren't the right guys for a tough program, in a tough conference, where the fans expect hard work, good character and toughness, and then reward the players and coaches mightily when they show it.
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I think the hotseat issue likely will have an impact on recruiting. A forum like this makes it easier and plainer to see that hot seat issue from fans' perspective and the on-going speculation.

Looking at a thread like this from the perspective of our very top targets in 2017,...I just have to wonder what the perception may be.
 
#63      

Bomb Squad 217

B
Bomb Squad 217
CAHALL15 said:
Ultimately, I agree with the opening post of this thread. The injuries this year are ridiculous. Next year, tournament team or he's gone.
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Once again, this is really all there is to it. And I think I agree with the last part as well. Might even add, "win a game", to that.
 
#64      

illinisc

I
illinisc
OldILLFan said:
Heres what it would take too get a Real good replacement 4 to 5 Mil. Bucks a year.. So we all know UofI will not pay that so.. Who ever we get will not be much better.. So for now I will hope things Go better....
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There might be 20 coaches in the country that make over 2 mil a year. Probably only a handful that make over 3. Coaches like Chris Mack and Archie Miller make less than what Groce makes now. My point is that we can get a very good coach at 2 million a year.
 
#65      

Sleepy Floyd

S
Kicking it with Fat Lever
Champaign
Sleepy Floyd
illinisc said:
There might be 20 coaches in the country that make over 2 mil a year. Probably only a handful that make over 3. Coaches like Chris Mack and Archie Miller make less than what Groce makes now. My point is that we can get a very good coach at 2 million a year.
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If we could Chris Mack I would be so happy.
 
#66      

Give it to Greene

G
Give it to Greene
Bomb Squad 217 said:
Once again, this is really all there is to it. And I think I agree with the last part as well. Might even add, "win a game", to that.
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Ultimately I agree... However, I think that the deck has been stacked against JG and will be again next year. This year its been the injuries. Next year it'll be the injuries coming home to roost. Not that there will be more, but those returning from injuries won't be able to return to 'expected' form, and therefore we'll fall short again.

I would question whether or not TA can return after 2 years of not playing, and be anywhere near his old self - if he even wants to return at all.
I can't see why MT would even want to return next year, even if the ncaa would consent to a 6th year for him - not a habit of the ncaa.
That leaves next years team the same as this years team, even with nice sophomore leaps by everyone, that's not very good. No big and a freshman pg !

This whole situation has turned into a total nightmare, if you ask me. Plus I think not making the tourney this year and next will greatly impact on JG's ability to recruit anything but lower end recruits - not a recipe for success...
 
#67      

CAHALL15

C
Central Illinois
CAHALL15
othawhitemeat said:
Would Gregg Marshall be interested? What about Chris Mack? Groce had a mediocre record with his team getting hot with a very good point guard. I really like Groce but he cannot coach and I don't see the fixture long term.
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Those would be good hires. I'm thinking about the last time we were in the market for a coach and Shaka Smart and Brad Stevens both said no. I'm just thinking I don't want to fire Groce and end up with Plan E.
 
#68      

Give it to Greene

G
Give it to Greene
brosox said:
Honestly, as a fan base, I would think we want to emphasize the positive over the negative. Maybe I don't know anything about basketball, but I think we are going to be a very good team next year not only because we will hopefully get all of our injured players back, but primarily because of the experience that kids like Finke, Lands and Jordan will be getting this year. While others think that it will be doom and gloom for us to lose Hill, Nunn, Thorne, Abrams and Tate after next season, I think we will have a very nice base in Black, Finke, Land and Jordan which might be used to entice quality recruits to join us. There is so much negativity going on here that I sometimes wonder whether I am reading the Loyalty board or the Scout board. I am an attorney and I learned a long time ago that it is all about the delivery. The more negative we are about our team' future prospects the more negative it will turn out to be.
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You're saying that a negative poster on an internet fan site causes the team to turn negative ? And you're an attorney ?

Plus I don't think the team will be much changed next year. TA hasn't played for 2 years, how good do you think he'll be? Thorne may not even want to return, even if the ncaa grants him a 6th year (not an ordinary habit of the ncaa). So we still won't have a big, and we'll have Tate and a freshman pg....

Frankly, I find most of the posts in this thread based on 'realism' and not pollyanna wishfulness....
 
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#69      

illinitiger

I
illinitiger
brosox said:
Honestly, as a fan base, I would think we want to emphasize the positive over the negative. Maybe I don't know anything about basketball, but I think we are going to be a very good team next year not only because we will hopefully get all of our injured players back, but primarily because of the experience that kids like Finke, Lands and Jordan will be getting this year. While others think that it will be doom and gloom for us to lose Hill, Nunn, Thorne, Abrams and Tate after next season, I think we will have a very nice base in Black, Finke, Land and Jordan which might be used to entice quality recruits to join us. There is so much negativity going on here that I sometimes wonder whether I am reading the Loyalty board or the Scout board. I am an attorney and I learned a long time ago that it is all about the delivery. The more negative we are about our team' future prospects the more negative it will turn out to be.
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I like JG, I like our players,...I hate our luck though and we do need to fill holes. I prefer to see JG able to recruit with a supportive fanbase and administration behind him and hopefully he will be in a position to sell that over the next 9 months as the 2017 recruits are making their decisions.

I think reaffirming support for JG now gives us the best chance for recruiting success and ultimately turning things around.
 
#70      

Dan

Dan
Admin
Dan
brosox said:
Am I the only one here who thinks this thread is counter-productive?
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The main purpose of this thread is an attempt to keep the pregame, game threads, postgame threads & recruiting thread on topic & free of all the Groce Era speculations/musings/complaints.

The secondary goal of this thread is to get some high-quality discussion of the Groce Era. HoC's post #1 was I thought a well balanced starting point to the topic.

Debating whether or not to have such a dedicated thread to such a popular topic is off topic to this thread.
 
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#71      

PostersLastStand

P
Wayne County, IL
PostersLastStand
I do believe Coach Groce is a great man and a good coach, but can he lead us deep into the tournament or even get us to the tournament? Can we wait, should we wait? Should we go another direction since Mike Thomas is gone? I think Coach probably gets another year. But no NCAA tourney in 2017, no more Coach. I agree with most posters. I will be pulling for Coach to succeed and hopefully, he will even over achieve.
 
#72      

illinitiger

I
illinitiger
"I think Coach probably gets another year. But no NCAA tourney in 2017, no more Coach."

I think this uncertainty will make recruiting up hill sledding for JG. That's why I think the administration will need to make a commitment to JG to give him a reasonable position/chance on recruiting trail...it will take some guts on the part of the new AD.
 
#73      

Give it to Greene

G
Give it to Greene
2012–13 23–13 NCAA Third Round
2013–14 20–15 NIT Second Round
2014–15 19–14 NIT First Round (with a complete collapse of the team)
2015–16 8–6 Most likely NO postseason
Total: 70–48 (.593)
B1G Record: 24–31 (.436)
Trend line is pointing down !

-He has lost at least 13 games in each of his seasons (this year probably more)
-He has not produced a single season with a winning record in conference play
-And We will be 3 years in a row without an NCAA appearance (last time that that happened was 35 years ago.)
-He inherited a team with seniors and sophomore's... Next years team will be seniors and sophomore's .... so much for class balance
-Also something happened at the end of last season that I don't think has been totally settled, at least from the players standpoint.
-He has yet to sign a top 100 big out of high school.
-He has missed on some very significant pg's while still having a decent record. How much harder will it be to get the studs in 2017 with no tourney in 3 consecutive years?

I like consistency and I hoped that JG would be the long-term answer, but it just doesn't stack up that way. Problem with consistency is that when it's bad its hard to change course.
I feel confident he'll get a pass this season, and perhaps only because of all of the injuries, the FB HC situation and the other immediate problems the new AD will be forced to deal with. But as mentioned above, this is a results oriented business, and when you run a multi-million dollar results oriented business, everyone knows what the bottom line is..... Wins...
 
#74      

Obelix

Obelix
Obelix
Give it to Greene said:
-He inherited a team with seniors and sophomore's... Next years team will be seniors and sophomore's .... so much for class balance
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Class balance is vastly overrated but there is a huge difference when the team includes Black (top-50 Jr) and Tejon Lucas (Fr.), plus Nichols (playing his first real year), and whoever we may potentially sign in Spring and inheriting a team that had absolutely no freshmen, no juniors, and a bunch of sophomores who did not belong (Ibby, Shaw, Langford).
 
#75      

Jreed322

J
Jreed322
IntenselyOrange said:
No, I think it's just the people who are the loudest has changed. Many of us questioned JG at his hiring based on his poor conference record at Ohio. Many of us failed to buy into his being in the discussion for top recruits and focused instead on the fact that we didn't actually get those guys.

Some fans, like myself, are cautiously optimistic. Others always see the glass 90% full, and see nothing but positives. Those who were cautiously optimistic are now seeing what they feared play out. And it hurts to see a team you care about suffer for such an extended period of time.
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Anyone who didn't buy in to Groce because of his conference record at Ohio was being foolish. The man showed he can coach at Ohio. I'm not sure you should be speaking on behalf of all those who are cautiously optimistic either.
 
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