John Groce at Illinois

TheBucket said:

I keep coming back to this thought. Would anyone really be that upset if a move was made? Seems like a pretty overwhelming majority are ready to move on. All comes down to JW, though.

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Honestly, I would. Probably not loudly, but I think the margin by which we have missed is very small.

If we had Thorne and Abrams healthy I think this season goes good, not great, but solid. If we had Black & Abrams healthy I think it is acceptable.

Groce has missed at key recruits, captain hindsight says he should have went for someone lower on the pecking order and locked them up, but there are no sure things at any level & you put yourself in as good of position with a pg as we were with D. Jackson, Snider, Brunson, Evans, or Nic Moore and I think it is reasonable to assume he gets one of them next time and things look much different. He has done fine recruiting wings, is it really that different with kids that don't have pg behind there name. Same story for bigs, he signed Finke/Black, he signed Paul (2x) and we know how that ended. He had visits Bragg, Cliff, Elijah, Froling; most of those were probably longshots, but we are competing. Freshman class this year looks to be good. Bottom line, recruiting quality has been ok, we have just missed on balance & we are still missing on a big in 2016, but it isn't over yet. Groce needs to have a great 2017 class for his job's sake, but if he gets a good 2017 class the arrow is pointing up, with the makings of a good 2015 class (plus Black & Finke now), a solid 2016 class of Kipper/TJL (?+).

I think we underestimate how bad of shape we were going to be in when Groce got here. He had a solid senior class that was hiding no junior class, a sophomore class that had Egwu, Abrams, & Henry (which were solid, but not superstars) and was also holding 3 scholarships that weren't ever going to make a contribution, along with no freshman.

Coaching wise I think his first year was great, second year was still good under the circumstances of 3 returning players. 3rd year was a disaster, we quit & didn't play to the level we should have. Yes we missed Abrams, didn't really have a pg and our roster balance issues played out. This year, to borrow a phrase from the Leron thread, we are bringing a knife to the gunfight that is the big ten. We don't have the horses at the 1, 4, or 5 positions. Khalid Lewis is a reasonable mid-major pg, Finke can shoot but he isn't ready to start in the big, Mav has improved to a solid backup level 5. Malcom is a great wing, but we can't even play him at wing anymore. We have some freshman who are going to be good, but they aren't ready. When the game is on the line and you need to make a big play, we have too many holes on defense & we can't stop. We are kind of like little brother right now, B1G brother may let us play for awhile, but when they need to they can slap us to the side and crush us. We can't rebound, our defense is suspect, we are dead last at pg position in the B1G, and pretty close at 4 & 5; and we have our projected starter at all 3 of those positions sitting on the sideline and first back up at 4/5 dismissed from the team. When it comes to coaching, if all you have is losing cards in your hand, there isn't a way out & with the injuries that is where we are.

What do we really expect this year to look like in a conference like the B1G?

No, this isn't where I want to be & it isn't ok... but the question to me is what is the best direction moving forward, at some point it is just past bad luck, but I think there is a reasonable enough chance that what looks like the worst luck in division 1 right now that has kept us from being on an acceptable track and we are 1 more year from knowing if Groce can right the ship (both wins & a good 2017 class), if not then it is time to start over.

Either way, if we can get a solid 2017 class I think it bodes well for our future, if we don't the next guy's rebuild gets a lot harder. So at the point Groce can't recruit 2017, then it is also time to move on, but I don't think we are there yet either.

Klondike said:

TJL, as good as he may end up becoming, is a 3 star unranked PG. He isn't going to come in next year and be able to run the offense. As for TA, he is remembered much more fondly than what people said about him when he played.

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This! I seem to remember numerous posts when Traci was playing where he was lambasted pretty well for not having a good outside shot and for driving into the lane with no idea what to do next. Hopefully he will be able to come back from his injuries and being several years older will make a big difference...

chief2007 said:

His four year track record is why he is on the hot seat and should be gone.

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Yep, that would be his reason if he is let go.

MadtownIllin said:

This! I seem to remember numerous posts when Traci was playing where he was lambasted pretty well for not having a good outside shot and for driving into the lane with no idea what to do next. Hopefully he will be able to come back from his injuries and being several years older will make a big difference...

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I think that Abrams, when surrounded by good wings that can shoot is an effective PG. He is not a great 3 shooter, but his 27% career average can at least keep the defense honest, instead of letting them sag off on him like Lewis and Tate.

Plus, he adds leadership that we are sorely missing.

He was effective as a sophmore, when he had Paul and DJ on the wings. But, as a junior, he tried to force too much, as our other options weren't ready yet (Hill and Nunn didn't start until mid-way through the BIG season).

The key is can he come back from these injuries and not have lost a step.

89illinigrad said:

I think that Abrams, when surrounded by good wings that can shoot is an effective PG. He is not a great 3 shooter, but his 27% career average can at least keep the defense honest, instead of letting them sag off on him like Lewis and Tate.

Plus, he adds leadership that we are sorely missing.

He was effective as a sophmore, when he had Paul and DJ on the wings. But, as a junior, he tried to force too much, as our other options weren't ready yet (Hill and Nunn didn't start until mid-way through the BIG season).

The key is can he come back from these injuries and not have lost a step.

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I don't expect him to come back with the same agility, certainly. But he should be a freaking wizard of a floor general now with all the tick he's spent on that bench in street clothes. That, and his leadership, I think will make a big difference next season.

I'm so tired of reading Robert's, "now THIS is the low point" articles. Can we just agree that JG years 2-4 are all one gigantic low point?

MadtownIllin said:

This! I seem to remember numerous posts when Traci was playing where he was lambasted pretty well for not having a good outside shot and for driving into the lane with no idea what to do next. Hopefully he will be able to come back from his injuries and being several years older will make a big difference...

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I don't think anyone is forgetting TA has flaws. Even with those flaws he is a major upgrade over what we have now.
I'll also go back to everything Groce said about Yogi in his post game. Leader. Vocal on both ends of the court. I honestly think TA can have the same points per game as Lewis and Tate and the team will improve greatly.

ATL Chief said:

I'm so tired of reading Robert's, "now THIS is the low point" articles. Can we just agree that JG years 2-4 are all one gigantic low point?

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Not to say it won't be tough sledding through the next year, it will, but I think we will look back on the time between Thomas' firing and Whitman's hiring as rock bottom. No success, no leadership, an almost comical rash of bizarre injuries on the basketball side, and no hope.

It might not get where we want it to go, but it will get better than this.

ILL in IA said:

I don't think anyone is forgetting TA has flaws. Even with those flaws he is a major upgrade over what we have now.
I'll also go back to everything Groce said about Yogi in his post game. Leader. Vocal on both ends of the court. I honestly think TA can have the same points per game as Lewis and Tate and the team will improve greatly.

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Dug this up and look at what Abrams can do that this team is missing...

:37, 1:37, 1:50 and 2:10 mark

[YOUTUBE]mYAHR5VhcZE[/YOUTUBE]

Yep those were the days. Unfortunately Tracy well be asked to return to form with two bad wheels. The mental challenge of all this is daunting let alone the physical side of things. I remain very skeptical that he can return and be the kind of contributor many people are counting on. I really want to be very wrong on this.

I think Finke is still very much feeling getting blown up by Hayes in the first UW game. He went flying across the lane after the contact with no part of his body anywhere near terra firma and Hayes didn't even seem to notice his presence. His shot just isn't what it was and he doesn't seem to be able to get open as often as he was before the injury. Whether it's mental, physical or a little of both he hasn't been the same since.

Klondike said:

TJL, as good as he may end up becoming, is a 3 star unranked PG. He isn't going to come in next year and be able to run the offense. As for TA, he is remembered much more fondly than what people said about him when he played.

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Lots of people who know basketball believe TJL will be to come in and help but yeah 3* unranked and all that (even though he's a 4* on scout).

It's hard for me to believe JW is going to come in here and fire the BB coach the first week he's on the job. Warranted or not, that might not be a good idea. I'm as critical as everyone else about JG's in game coaching and weak staff. But in my mind he gets 2017 to prove himself one way or another.

We've played 9 or 10 close, competitive games, all losses. All of them have been without TA. All of them have been without a healthy LB. Most of them have been without MT. I think tose 3 would have made the difference in a lot of those games, to the point that we would have won a lot of them. 19-9 and in the Tourney discussion looks a lot different than where we are now.

Now how many of those games we would have won is sheer speculation, but I'm pretty confident we'd be in a much better place than we are now if we were healthy all year.

The best Groce and staff could do for 2016 recruiting is 2 sub 150 guys that nobody good wanted. That's not ideal. Now 1 or both could come in here and light it up, but counting on either one to do it in 2017 is foolhardy.

He has to be told 2017 is all he gets, that he absolutely must knock it out of the park with the 2017 class, must finish well into the upper half of the B1G, and must be a No Doubt About It Dance selection, and anything less will be the end of it.

Whitman's very first order of business should be to make a public announcement to the effect that we have our basketball coach and he looks forward to working with him for a long time. Then, let Groce hit the recruiting trail with no apparent threat of a job loss and let's see what happens.

brosox said:

Whitman's very first order of business should be to make a public announcement to the effect that we have our basketball coach and he looks forward to working with him for a long time. Then, let Groce hit the recruiting trail with no apparent threat of a job loss and let's see what happens.

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No one will believe that. All the words in the world won't change that.

StateFarmCenter said:

No one will believe that. All the words in the world won't change that.

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Interesting that you speak for everyone else. Regardless, doesn't matter what we think. It matters what recruits think and some important ones are looking for that assurance that Groce is here next year

gibb52 said:

It's hard for me to believe JW is going to come in here and fire the BB coach the first week he's on the job. Warranted or not, that might not be a good idea. I'm as critical as everyone else about JG's in game coaching and weak staff. But in my mind he gets 2017 to prove himself one way or another.

We've played 9 or 10 close, competitive games, all losses. All of them have been without TA. All of them have been without a healthy LB. Most of them have been without MT. I think tose 3 would have made the difference in a lot of those games, to the point that we would have won a lot of them. 19-9 and in the Tourney discussion looks a lot different than where we are now.

Now how many of those games we would have won is sheer speculation, but I'm pretty confident we'd be in a much better place than we are now if we were healthy all year.

The best Groce and staff could do for 2016 recruiting is 2 sub 150 guys that nobody good wanted. That's not ideal. Now 1 or both could come in here and light it up, but counting on either one to do it in 2017 is foolhardy.

He has to be told 2017 is all he gets, that he absolutely must knock it out of the park with the 2017 class, must finish well into the upper half of the B1G, and must be a No Doubt About It Dance selection, and anything less will be the end of it.

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1) TJL was being sought after by Wisconsin hard and may end up there is Groce is fired and he decides to reopen his recruitment.

2) With regards to your last paragraph, Groce knows he needs a great class in '17 regardless of whether or not he's on the hot seat or not. An AD should not go around giving coaches ultimatums about how good or great their recruiting classes should be.

StateFarmCenter said:

No one will believe that. All the words in the world won't change that.

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I understand that some people are skeptical about a so- called vote of confidence. However I really doubt that Whitman will be making a move on Groce this year as there are already too many things on his plate and very few coaches have ever had to go through what Groce has gone through in the last year. Thus, Whitman should do whatever he can to let the public know he is behind Groce so we all can see if he can finish what he has tried to start.

StateFarmCenter said:

No one will believe that. All the words in the world won't change that.

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Words are the only weapons available at this point. No reason not to use them.

Second and Chalmers said:

Words are the only weapons available at this point. No reason not to use them.

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I agree. But no one will buy it still.

Jreed322 said:

Interesting that you speak for everyone else. Regardless, doesn't matter what we think. It matters what recruits think and some important ones are looking for that assurance that Groce is here next year



1) TJL was being sought after by Wisconsin hard and may end up there is Groce is fired and he decides to reopen his recruitment.

2) With regards to your last paragraph, Groce knows he needs a great class in '17 regardless of whether or not he's on the hot seat or not. An AD should not go around giving coaches ultimatums about how good or great their recruiting classes should be.

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An AD should absolutely be giving ultimatums to a guy that's 5 yrs into his tenure with these kind of results.

Jreed322 said:

Lots of people who know basketball believe TJL will be to come in and help but yeah 3* unranked and all that (even though he's a 4* on scout).

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Every. Single. Unranked. Recruit. has people propping them up as the unheralded next big thing, the guy who will defy all odds. And guess what, 99% of them aren't. I suppose you believe that the guy that just randomly happens to be the guy committed to your favorite team is gonna be in that 1% next year?

Look, I understand optimism. I wish I could be optimistic about this program again. But the Groce era is circling the drain. Wischnowsky calling for Coach Groce's head today wasn't even surprising, as sad as that is.

We only recruit from Lake Wobegon High School :thumb:

Klondike said:

Every. Single. Unranked. Recruit. has people propping them up as the unheralded next big thing, the guy who will defy all odds. And guess what, 99% of them aren't. I suppose you believe that the guy that just randomly happens to be the guy committed to your favorite team is gonna be in that 1% next year?

Look, I understand optimism. I wish I could be optimistic about this program again. But the Groce era is circling the drain. Wischnowsky calling for Coach Groce's head today wasn't even surprising, as sad as that is.

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You apparently have a problem between differentiating between "THE missing piece" and "a guy who will be a positive addition". I never suggested TJL will be any sort of "big thing". I have suggested that he will contribute next year at a position of need.

Klondike said:

Every. Single. Unranked. Recruit. has people propping them up as the unheralded next big thing, the guy who will defy all odds. And guess what, 99% of them aren't. I suppose you believe that the guy that just randomly happens to be the guy committed to your favorite team is gonna be in that 1% next year?

Look, I understand optimism. I wish I could be optimistic about this program again. But the Groce era is circling the drain. Wischnowsky calling for Coach Groce's head today wasn't even surprising, as sad as that is.

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People on here do overhype our recruits, but he doesn't have to be a stud recruit to make a big impact at the pg position next year.

I think you're a little fixated on his ranking. Lucas really expanded his game since his latest ranking, which is quite outdated. He was previously known as mostly a facilitator even when he was borderline 3/4 recruit, and has become a huge scoring threat since. Ranking aside, we have a young kid coming in that will be much more of a scoring threat, and is a really good ball handler and facilitator. Maybe you're going by just his ranking and highlight videos, that's what's most people do on here as well.. those opinions aren't worth much though.