John Groce at Illinois

Ryllini · Feb 27, 2016

Jreed322 said:
You apparently have a problem between differentiating between "THE missing piece" and "a guy who will be a positive addition". I never suggested TJL will be any sort of "big thing". I have suggested that he will contribute next year at a position of need.

I think you are right on here. I think down the road TJL will be a very good BigTen point guard, but if he can come in next year and be a threat in handling the rock, driving to the dish and hitting some shots that is a huge positive addition to what we currently have. We have two points who can do none of those things to be considered a threat. My faith in JFG is waning, but I do think he should get one more year, maybe two. He needs a little luck with health and maybe next year he will be able to have an offense where it isn't 4 on 5. That situation is on him no doubt, but when he has an equal deck it should be a lot easier to coach and will no doubt make him look better.

homesickalien · Feb 27, 2016

Watching a few games today and it's tough seeing other schools have succes when they hired a new coach around the same time the Illini did. Dan Hurley could be a hot name here soon as he has Rhode Island trending in the right direction. I see Texas Tech and the job Tubby has done. He inherited a situation similar to Groce and has Tech in the tournament this year and playing well in the tough Big 12. I want to look forward to March again!

Second and Chalmers · Feb 27, 2016

homesickalien said:
I see Texas Tech and the job Tubby has done. He inherited a situation similar to Groce

Not even close. Not even close to close.

Now, Tubby has shown time and time again his great ability to get from A to B and then total inability to get from B to C, so lets not get ahead of ourselves, but Tech is a minnow of a program that was a total disaster area when he got there. It's an incredible job he's done.

Second and Chalmers · Feb 27, 2016

To add:

Groce inherited 6 top 100 recruits at a program that had gone 36-36 in conference the previous four years.

Tubby inherited 0 top 100 recruits at a program that had gone 13-55 in conference the previous four years. And has never made an Elite Eight. And has never won their current conference (or even come in second). And was averaging under 8,000 fans a game.

homesickalien · Feb 27, 2016

Totally agree with you. I was just making a quick comment that both had some rebuilding to do. I'm not here to compare the programs or go into detail on the two. No question Tech has been one of the worst power conference jobs.

My point was that other coaches are having success building their programs that have came in around the same time as Groce and Tubby would be one of them. Him doing what he's done just shows how big of a failure Groce has been. We know what Tubby is and I think we all can see what Groce is now.

Can't wait to get a capable leader and staff in here that will take us back to where we once were.

KansasIllinifan · Feb 27, 2016

homesickalien said:
Watching a few games today and it's tough seeing other schools have succes when they hired a new coach around the same time the Illini did. Dan Hurley could be a hot name here soon as he has Rhode Island trending in the right direction. I see Texas Tech and the job Tubby has done. He inherited a situation similar to Groce and has Tech in the tournament this year and playing well in the tough Big 12. I want to look forward to March again!

Might want to take up crappie fishing then.:thumb:jk

LubbockIlliniFan · Feb 27, 2016

Second and Chalmers said:
To add:

Groce inherited 6 top 100 recruits at a program that had gone 36-36 in conference the previous four years.

Tubby inherited 0 top 100 recruits at a program that had gone 13-55 in conference the previous four years. And has never made an Elite Eight. And has never won their current conference (or even come in second). And was averaging under 8,000 fans a game.

I lived in Lubbock for a while, and its a much harder place to recruit to than Illinois...plus its a football school...we used to go to basketball games and there wouldn't be 5000 people there...

what Tubby is doing is phenomenal.

Obelix · Feb 27, 2016

Second and Chalmers said:
Groce inherited 6 top 100 recruits at a program that had gone 36-36 in conference the previous four years.

Tubby inherited 0 top 100 recruits at a program that had gone 13-55 in conference the previous four years. And has never made an Elite Eight. And has never won their current conference (or even come in second). And was averaging under 8,000 fans a game.

That's very misleading. Groce inherited a program that had gone 6-12 in the B1G and had its best talent (Leonard) leave for the NBA on top of that. Every coach would have to replace his senior class, but in addition to his senior class that was graduating (2009), Groce has to replace the 2010 class that was all gone before Groce arrived, an empty 2012 class, and even half of 2011 class that had many parts (Ibby, Shaw, Langford) that clearly did not belong at B1G level. That is having to recruit 3 1/2 classes rather than 1. It was a dire situation at Illinois, even though I am critical of Groce.

Tubby in the B1G (Minnesota) did not do very well either (46-62) in 6 whole years without the many critical injuries that Groce had to face. And at Texas Tech he had two absolutely pathetic years (6-12 and 3-15 in conference) without Groce's bad lack with injuries. Does not mean that Groce or Tubby's replacement at Minny are better, but Tubby is hardly an example of coach we need at Illinois or the coach who was successful in the B1G 10. If nothing else, someone may use Tubby as the wrong example for giving Groce more time: "hey look at Tubby, 6 very mediocre years in Minnesota and 2 terrible years at Texas Tech, and look at him now. Let's give Groce more time!"

IlliniInOK · Feb 28, 2016

re: the discussion on TJL

All he needs to be able to do next year to be a huge upgrade over this year is protect the ball, facilitate the offense, and be a threat to score from 15 feet.

Lewis is a turnstile on defense and can't shoot outside of 10 feet. Tate can't shoot outside of 5 feet and isn't anything special defensively either.

PerennIaLL · Feb 28, 2016

IlliniInOK said:
re: the discussion on TJL

All he needs to be able to do next year to be a huge upgrade over this year is protect the ball, facilitate the offense, and be a threat to score from 15 feet.

Lewis is a turnstile on defense and can't shoot outside of 10 feet. Tate can't shoot outside of 5 feet and isn't anything special defensively either.

I would add play good defense to your list. However, that already seems like a lot to ask of a true freshman. I think people really need to lower their expectations for TJL in year one.

Hands Malone · Feb 28, 2016

KansasIllinifan said:
Might want to take up crappie fishing then.:thumb:jk

I've been watching more Linder's Fishing Edge than the Illini this year. I know it sounds fishy but there's less talk about the one that got away.

orangeandbluekrush · Feb 28, 2016

Obelix said:
That's very misleading. Groce inherited a program that had gone 6-12 in the B1G and had its best talent (Leonard) leave for the NBA on top of that. Every coach would have to replace his senior class, but in addition to his senior class that was graduating (2009), Groce has to replace the 2010 class that was all gone before Groce arrived, an empty 2012 class, and even half of 2011 class that had many parts (Ibby, Shaw, Langford) that clearly did not belong at B1G level. That is having to recruit 3 1/2 classes rather than 1. It was a dire situation at Illinois, even though I am critical of Groce.

Tubby in the B1G (Minnesota) did not do very well either (46-62) in 6 whole years without the many critical injuries that Groce had to face. And at Texas Tech he had two absolutely pathetic years (6-12 and 3-15 in conference) without Groce's bad lack with injuries. Does not mean that Groce or Tubby's replacement at Minny are better, but Tubby is hardly an example of coach we need at Illinois or the coach who was successful in the B1G 10. If nothing else, someone may use Tubby as the wrong example for giving Groce more time: "hey look at Tubby, 6 very mediocre years in Minnesota and 2 terrible years at Texas Tech, and look at him now. Let's give Groce more time!"

Could not agree more! Weber ran this program into the ground. Groce had a lot of work to do and did a great job his first year and then injuries set in. Yes he lost recruiting battles but it wasn't for the lack of trying. It's also difficult to recruit players who would be 3rd on the depth chart immediately and would have to prove they belong in the rotation. Losing Abrams 2 yrs straight hurt not only on the court but in recruiting because you can't predict injuries. As far as this year is concerned, Groce has done a pretty good job keeping this unit together. When you have 3 starters not playing pretty much the entire year and then sprinkle in other injuries and circumstances, you don't expect to win a ton of games. Think about this: if you take Spangler, Woodard, and Lattin off the Oklahoma roster, they are nowhere near the team they are. Our 3 starters out would have comparable stats to those 3 so it's a fair assessment. All you trolls on this board need to wake up and understand that Illinois is NOT an ELITE program right now and hasn't been since Bill Self. Running off another coach would be detrimental to recruiting for 2017, possibly lose TJL, and to next years team. The only way you make a change is if Whitman has a homerun hire up his sleeve. Chris Mack or Archie Miller aren't homerun hires. Give Groce a chance to have his full squad and see what he can do. He has not had that opportunity yet. As Whitman stated in his press conference and release, SUPPORT THE PROGRAM, don't be NEGATIVE NANCY'S. GO ILLINI! IN GROCE WE TRUST!

freebird6 · Feb 28, 2016

orangeandbluekrush said:
Could not agree more! Weber ran this program into the ground. Groce had a lot of work to do and did a great job his first year and then injuries set in. Yes he lost recruiting battles but it wasn't for the lack of trying. It's also difficult to recruit players who would be 3rd on the depth chart immediately and would have to prove they belong in the rotation. Losing Abrams 2 yrs straight hurt not only on the court but in recruiting because you can't predict injuries. As far as this year is concerned, Groce has done a pretty good job keeping this unit together. When you have 3 starters not playing pretty much the entire year and then sprinkle in other injuries and circumstances, you don't expect to win a ton of games. Think about this: if you take Spangler, Woodard, and Lattin off the Oklahoma roster, they are nowhere near the team they are. Our 3 starters out would have comparable stats to those 3 so it's a fair assessment. All you trolls on this board need to wake up and understand that Illinois is NOT an ELITE program right now and hasn't been since Bill Self. Running off another coach would be detrimental to recruiting for 2017, possibly lose TJL, and to next years team. The only way you make a change is if Whitman has a homerun hire up his sleeve. Chris Mack or Archie Miller aren't homerun hires. Give Groce a chance to have his full squad and see what he can do. He has not had that opportunity yet. As Whitman stated in his press conference and release, SUPPORT THE PROGRAM, don't be NEGATIVE NANCY'S. GO ILLINI! IN GROCE WE TRUST!

Pretty interesting first post to tail on to Obelix analysis. Welcome to the board. Interesting that Mack and Archie come up as they are basically running the same offense with better bodies (Healthy and more) and using the chemisty of vet teams that have been together with a great foundation.

cjcastan · Feb 28, 2016

Well JG is good until at least the signing day of the class of 2017

Hands Malone · Feb 28, 2016

With the latest 2017 recruit, looks like Groce may be around next year. If so, he may want to look to add Grey Giovaine from Augastana to his staff. This guys a second generation coach and a true X's and O's coach could help manage a game better than what's now there. I'll wait for the screaming.

ILLINIShox24 · Feb 29, 2016

Hands Malone said:
With the latest 2017 recruit, looks like Groce may be around next year. If so, he may want to look to add Grey Giovaine from Augastana to his staff. This guys a second generation coach and a true X's and O's coach could help manage a game better than what's now there. I'll wait for the screaming.

No screaming. I'm up for just about any staff change.

Swamp Donkey · Feb 29, 2016

Starting to feel that the worm is turning for UofI basketball program. Kind of agree that a staff shakeup might be needed though. Whoever is the weakest recruiter should be the one to go but I have no idea who that might be. Replace him with a former D1 coach that is a great tactician.

GreenwoodAve · Feb 29, 2016

Hands Malone said:
With the latest 2017 recruit, looks like Groce may be around next year. If so, he may want to look to add Grey Giovaine from Augastana to his staff. This guys a second generation coach and a true X's and O's coach could help manage a game better than what's now there. I'll wait for the screaming.

Giovaine loves Augustana and has built a power. The guy has turned down coaching gigs, so hard to see him taking an assistant job. I still don't think Groce back is a for sure thing. 4 of our 5 wins so far are against Minnesota and Rutgers. We needed OT wins for 2 of those.

Jreed322 · Feb 29, 2016

PerennIaLL said:
I would add play good defense to your list. However, that already seems like a lot to ask of a true freshman. I think people really need to lower their expectations for TJL in year one.

Or maybe you need to raise them? No ones expecting anything other worldly from what I've read.

Hands Malone · Feb 29, 2016

GreenwoodAve said:
Giovaine loves Augustana and has built a power. The guy has turned down coaching gigs, so hard to see him taking an assistant job. I still don't think Groce back is a for sure thing. 4 of our 5 wins so far are against Minnesota and Rutgers. We needed OT wins for 2 of those.

True but more than doubling a guy's salary makes a person think twice. I know it's a stretch. If not him, a more seasoned someone like him that can help manage a game and evaluate border line players with an upside.

Illini B-Ball Fan · Feb 29, 2016

Hands Malone said:
With the latest 2017 recruit, looks like Groce may be around next year. If so, he may want to look to add Grey Giovaine from Augastana to his staff. This guys a second generation coach and a true X's and O's coach could help manage a game better than what's now there. I'll wait for the screaming.

Maybe an easier fix - give Dee a year (or less) to gain some experience and he will probably be an assistant.

SaveChief · Feb 29, 2016

Support the Program

orangeandbluekrush said:
Could not agree more! Weber ran this program into the ground. Groce had a lot of work to do and did a great job his first year and then injuries set in. Yes he lost recruiting battles but it wasn't for the lack of trying. It's also difficult to recruit players who would be 3rd on the depth chart immediately and would have to prove they belong in the rotation. Losing Abrams 2 yrs straight hurt not only on the court but in recruiting because you can't predict injuries. As far as this year is concerned, Groce has done a pretty good job keeping this unit together. When you have 3 starters not playing pretty much the entire year and then sprinkle in other injuries and circumstances, you don't expect to win a ton of games. Think about this: if you take Spangler, Woodard, and Lattin off the Oklahoma roster, they are nowhere near the team they are. Our 3 starters out would have comparable stats to those 3 so it's a fair assessment. All you trolls on this board need to wake up and understand that Illinois is NOT an ELITE program right now and hasn't been since Bill Self. Running off another coach would be detrimental to recruiting for 2017, possibly lose TJL, and to next years team. The only way you make a change is if Whitman has a homerun hire up his sleeve. Chris Mack or Archie Miller aren't homerun hires. Give Groce a chance to have his full squad and see what he can do. He has not had that opportunity yet. As Whitman stated in his press conference and release, SUPPORT THE PROGRAM, don't be NEGATIVE NANCY'S. GO ILLINI! IN GROCE WE TRUST!

Support the program means blindly follow? That is like saying raising your children means never reprimanding them..."johnny, way to pull that girls hair!" Illinois needs to rebuild the trust in the athletic department by not making stupid decisions regarding the two pillars of the department. Until the performance is better (football record and player treatment, basketball record and suspensions and dismissals), criticism and doubt are warranted.

It is weird to defend Bruce because I never thought he was a great coach, but to use his "running the program into the ground" as an excuse does not defend the absolute aberration that is where our program is right now....compare the last four years of BW to JG. JG has not done as well as that. Look it up. He has had four years to put his imprint on the program and he has. His imprint is mediocre defense, no offensive plan at all, poor shot selection, poor talent evaluation, poor recruiting (Damonte Williams was ours to lose...he will stay even if JG is gone), poor records and extreme apathy from the fan base. I actually don't want to say poor recruiting because I like the kids on the team and their potential but with JG's complete lack of coaching, he would need to have top 10 classes every year to outperform his limitations.

The beauty of basketball is that a good/great coach can turn it around quickly. The answer quite possibly is coaching in the Chicagoland area - Bryce Drew.

Check his record at Valpo (he has what JG never had at Ohio, consistent success). He is former pro, a point guard and is young and energetic. He would come in tomorrow and the guys would be the happiest guys in the world...we owe it to MH and KN to give them a guy who can coach, even if it is only for one year....Bryce Drew would be a 20 year home run.

Right after the season make the move.

orangeandbluekrush · Feb 29, 2016

SaveChief said:
Support the program means blindly follow? That is like saying raising your children means never reprimanding them..."johnny, way to pull that girls hair!" Illinois needs to rebuild the trust in the athletic department by not making stupid decisions regarding the two pillars of the department. Until the performance is better (football record and player treatment, basketball record and suspensions and dismissals), criticism and doubt are warranted.

It is weird to defend Bruce because I never thought he was a great coach, but to use his "running the program into the ground" as an excuse does not defend the absolute aberration that is where our program is right now....compare the last four years of BW to JG. JG has not done as well as that. Look it up. He has had four years to put his imprint on the program and he has. His imprint is mediocre defense, no offensive plan at all, poor shot selection, poor talent evaluation, poor recruiting (Damonte Williams was ours to lose...he will stay even if JG is gone), poor records and extreme apathy from the fan base. I actually don't want to say poor recruiting because I like the kids on the team and their potential but with JG's complete lack of coaching, he would need to have top 10 classes every year to outperform his limitations.

The beauty of basketball is that a good/great coach can turn it around quickly. The answer quite possibly is coaching in the Chicagoland area - Bryce Drew.

Check his record at Valpo (he has what JG never had at Ohio, consistent success). He is former pro, a point guard and is young and energetic. He would come in tomorrow and the guys would be the happiest guys in the world...we owe it to MH and KN to give them a guy who can coach, even if it is only for one year....Bryce Drew would be a 20 year home run.

Right after the season make the move.

You are missing the point. You believe change is warranted because JG simply can't coach a MASH Unit two years in a row. JG has done a pretty darn good job keeping this team afloat. It's difficult to find consistency and trust with players when all they have been doing is going in and out of the lineup. Furthermore, if you can't see that next years team will be pretty darn good because of what's coming back and the development of players, then you have no eye for talent and optimism. If everyone is healthy, next years team makes the tournament. I posted for the first time on here yesterday because I'm sick and tired of all the crap people post with no optimism in sight. All people do on here is whine and complain. As Whitman said last night at halftime, support and find more Illini fans. Many on here are not those people. #WEWILLWIN #INGROCEWETRUST

PerennIaLL · Feb 29, 2016

Jreed322 said:
Or maybe you need to raise them? No ones expecting anything other worldly from what I've read.

"All he needs to be able to do next year to be a huge upgrade over this year is protect the ball, facilitate the offense, and be a threat to score from 15 feet."

I was responding to the above. That combined with playing good defense seems like a lot to ask of a 3-star true freshmen PG, as our recent experience with similar AND higher rated freshmen (at all positions, much less arguably the most important one on the court) has indicated.

I hope TJL is the diamond in the rough and I think he will be a good four year player, I just don't have those expectations for him in year one.

PerennIaLL · Feb 29, 2016

orangeandbluekrush said:
You are missing the point. You believe change is warranted because JG simply can't coach a MASH Unit two years in a row. JG has done a pretty darn good job keeping this team afloat. It's difficult to find consistency and trust with players when all they have been doing is going in and out of the lineup. Furthermore, if you can't see that next years team will be pretty darn good because of what's coming back and the development of players, then you have no eye for talent and optimism. If everyone is healthy, next years team makes the tournament. I posted for the first time on here yesterday because I'm sick and tired of all the crap people post with no optimism in sight. All people do on here is whine and complain. As Whitman said last night at halftime, support and find more Illini fans. Many on here are not those people. #WEWILLWIN #INGROCEWETRUST

I hope we are healthy, win and easily make the tournament next year.

If we are healthy but the other two don't come true, will you be ok with others "whining and complaining" then?

John Groce at Illinois

Orange Krush '04 & '05