John Groce at Illinois

Status
Not open for further replies.
#651      

dsboyce

dsboyce
Golden, IL
dsboyce
LurkLongandProsper said:
Go ahead and show me what development we've seen that is substantial? Maybe guys are getting better at things they could already do, but what have any of our players added? I already mentioned Rayvonte Rice learning to shoot the 3, so what do you have besides that?
Click to expand...

You don't think Nunn and Hill have developed since they've been in the program? They have gone from freshmen who struggled mightily to maybe the best duo in the Big Ten.

We haven't had a chance to see it due to the injury, but it certainly looked like Black had developed by leaps and bounds over the summer.

I don't have time to get into details, but have you not noticed the development this year of Finke, JCL and DJW? Hell, even Mav has developed quite a bit. He's never going to be great, he just doesn't have it in him, but he's a much better player than last year.
 
#653      

dmac279

D
dmac279
dsboyce said:
I keep seeing people say that there is no player development under Groce. Those people either don't understand what they are looking at or are being dishonest.
Click to expand...

IMO, your going to be bad trotting all these different combos and position shifts injuries have hit hard
 
#654      

PerennIaLL

P
PerennIaLL
LurkLongandProsper said:
I disagree with this. If there's no talent, THAT IS COACH'S FAULT. Not healthy? Sure, you can use that as an excuse (because that's sure what half of IL has defected to), but at some point, you need to adjust. Losing DP, TA all before the season even started aren't excuses at this point, we knew we wouldn't have them. Hell, we even had time to replace TA with Khalid he was injured so early. MT and LB hurt, but it's time for guys to step up or the scheme to adjust instead of us continuing to point to the end of the bench.



Sure, Drew has more tournament appearances at Valpo than we have at Illinois in the last three years, and has won the conference every year but one he's been at Valpo, and was 4th the other year.

This
Click to expand...


So we agree? I think you are saying what I am saying. I do not want excuses. I want results. That's why I want all of our talent to be healthy, so there are no excuses.
 
Last edited:
#656      

HoopCity

HoopCity
Huntsville, AL
HoopCity
RichardH said:
1.) I don't know what you're deifnition of impact Freshmen are, but I think most good teams have impact Freshmen. You could argue we have two right now.

2.) Hill and Nunn are very good players, but they aren't stars.

3.) I think there are still so many question marks with our roster and its a bit frightening.
Click to expand...


It is hard to carry a team like everyone is expecting Hill and Nunn to do day in and day out.

If you took Hill and Nunn and put them on a top team like Mich State etc I bet they would be starters and better players with great players of their caliber around them.
 
#658      

Klondike

K
Klondike
alaskaillini said:
Amen.

I am really getting tired of reading the crap that gets posted on this thread.

Someone give me an example of another coach who made the tourney after losing 3 starters to injury?
Click to expand...




Plenty of other threads to peruse. This thread is for those who wish to have a critical discussion of the pros and cons of Coach Groce at Illinois. Plenty who support him post thoughtful and reasonable responses without resorting to emotion.
 
#659      

PerennIaLL

P
PerennIaLL
dmac279 said:
Well we have a heck of better chance then now
Click to expand...

Yes, "chance" being the key word. I am still not sure this team gets to the tourney this year healthy. Even healthy, it is not dramatically different than the team that missed the tournament last year.

I wish we were healthy so we could put all the speculation to rest. Unfortunately, we will never know. But I will still keep rooting for the Illini and coach Groce. I am just afraid the body of evidence is starting to tilt against Groce, bad luck or not.
 
#660      

Ulysses Everett McGill

Ulysses Everett McGill
Ulysses Everett McGill
LurkLongandProsper said:
Sure, Drew has more tournament appearances at Valpo than we have at Illinois in the last three years, and has won the conference every year but one he's been at Valpo, and was 4th the other year.
Click to expand...

In the Horizon, against the likes of Chicago State and IUPUI. And you're of the opinion, to which you're entitled, that his successes there will translate to the level of success in the B1G that we all want? I guess I'd have to ask what makes you think he'd establish recruiting relationships in Chicago, St. Louis, Peoria, and nationally well enough to land the higher caliber players we need, and what leads you to believe he'd be any better coaching than Groce against the great coaches and their players in the B1G. We got Groce from the MAC (though he at least had B1G experience as an assistant), you're not happy with him or how that turned out, yet you'd next grab a guy from the Horizon. I just don't know what there is about Drew that would convince a new AD to walk in and can Groce at the end of this season for. I don't think that will happen, regardless, but still not seeing why Drew w/b an improvement over Groce.

Other posters have cited that Valpo is currently at #20 kenpom, that Drew has a coaching father and brother, and that he played a bit in the NBA. Going in reverse order, I don't give much weight to playing in the NBA at all (who among the current stable of B1G coaches played in the NBA? Maybe Eddie Jordan(?), but Izzo, Matta, Beilein, etc. are doing fine w/out that on their resumes). As for the family tree, Homer was like a Ray Meyer, right, just stayed at Valpo a real long time and had late career success? Scott is doing good at Baylor with some amazing (cough, cough) recruiting right out of the box. But why does that mean Drew is ready and able to take over at Illinois. As for kenpom #20, I'm a few months away from "will she still need you, will she still feed you", so I'll confess I don't know what the significance of that stat is. If it means kenpom thinks there are currently only 19 teams in the country better than Valpo, I'll have to grin and leave that alone.
 
#661      

dmac279

D
dmac279
PerennIaLL said:
Yes, "chance" being the key word. I am still not sure this team gets to the tourney this year healthy. Even healthy, it is not dramatically different than the team that missed the tournament last year.

I wish we were healthy so we could put all the speculation to rest. Unfortunately, we will never know. But I will still keep rooting for the Illini and coach Groce. I am just afraid the body of evidence is starting to tilt against Groce, bad luck or not.
Click to expand...

I think Groce gets a pass this year, if they don't produce next year he's probably in trouble, and I like Groce a lot.
 
#662      

IlliiniLegacy

I
IlliiniLegacy
We need a new AD immediately, and he must give Groce another year or there's a real possibility that we miss on major targets. These 2017 recruits aren't going to commit until they see Groce gets another year. (Pickets was a great commit). According to Piper, Williams and Goodwin are waiting to see what happens to Groce before committing.
 
#663      

Deleted member 586966

D
Guest
Deleted member 586966
PerennIaLL said:
Yes, "chance" being the key word. I am still not sure this team gets to the tourney this year healthy. Even healthy, it is not dramatically different than the team that missed the tournament last year.
...
Click to expand...

I agree. The one thing this season guarantees is that there will be huge implicit pressure on Abrams, Black, and Thorne when they come back with Groce on the hot seat. Absence makes the heart grow fonder, but they're just not as good as some people here would have you believe.

Personally, I don't really see how Thorne going down to injury can be an excuse for Groce whatsoever. I mean, if you're relying on a 5th year mid-major transfer to not only be your starter, but your star post player and really your only effective paint player taller than 6'7" then you probably effed up.
 
#665      

Adnarel

A
Adnarel
frozenrope9190 said:
Question of the day: If you had the power and it were the only option, would you replace John Groce with Tom Crean?
Click to expand...
I'm glad you've made this point.

I know there's already a counterexample since you've posed this question, but a lot of people (even without knowing it) are quietly grateful that Groce is running a clean program. You want Crean? The guy who has a verb named after him, describing yanking a kid's scholarship so you can get somebody else to play? Sorry, not sorry: I can't get on that boat.

But the the point here is that except for Darius Paul and whatever weirdness was going on with Rice and Cosby last season, there have been no character-related black eyes for the program under Groce. How many coaches have made remarks about the Illinois staff to the effect of "if you get beat by them on recruiting, you know they did it fair and square?" I'd love for that to be status quo rather than slush funds, jobs for players' parents, and certainly Creaning.
 
#666      

KansasIllinifan

K
KansasIllinifan
DeadIShooter said:
I agree. The one thing this season guarantees is that there will be huge implicit pressure on Abrams, Black, and Thorne when they come back with Groce on the hot seat. Absence makes the heart grow fonder, but they're just not as good as some people here would have you believe.

Personally, I don't really see how Thorne going down to injury can be an excuse for Groce whatsoever. I mean, if you're relying on a 5th year mid-major transfer to not only be your starter, but your star post player and really your only effective paint player taller than 6'7" then you probably effed up.
Click to expand...
I also don't agree with the Abrams and Black excuses. Tracy shouldn't have even been on this team anyway.And when he was our pg he was the one of the most bashed player on this board. No court vision,low shooting percentage, walking the ball up the court.Don't people remember all those drives to the basket then throwing up some sort of circus shot prayer.Admittedly he's a tough hardnosed player who did have his days, but he would not be a starter on very many good teams.Although he would make us better I doubt his presence would make us a tourney team.And Leron has shown nothing but being able to grab some rebounds.If he could learn to stop making plain old boneheaded fouls and frustrated bullying flagrants he commits he could be a solid player but he's shown no sign of outgrowing that in his limited games this season.
.
 
#667      

Ransom Stoddard

Ransom Stoddard
Ordained Dudeist Priest
Bloomington, IL
Ransom Stoddard
Bomb Squad 217 said:
If we weren't riddled with injuries this year, this thread wouldn't even exist.
Click to expand...

It probably would, because there is no guarantee that the team would be performing at the level that many think they should. None of the guys we're missing were likely to be all-conference players so there would likely still be games we lose that we shouldn't, and that riles the fan base up and people question the coach. JG still hasn't recruited a PG or a C, so that concern would still be valid.

While I think we'd be better, I have a hard time getting on board the "this is a tournament team without the injuries" bandwagon.
 
#668      

Ransom Stoddard

Ransom Stoddard
Ordained Dudeist Priest
Bloomington, IL
Ransom Stoddard
frozenrope9190 said:
Question of the day: If you had the power and it were the only option, would you replace John Groce with Tom Crean?
Click to expand...

I would hope that Illinois basketball never finds itself in the position where that is the only option. Others have said it already, but Crean is a snake-oil salesman.
 
#669      

TooHot4Tots

T
TooHot4Tots
Just make staff a staff change or two. Really would like to see Groce succeed but feel he has to make changes at end of the season to do just that.
 
#670      

CrazedUIFan

C
UI Fan in QC Land
CrazedUIFan
Player development...I see individual player development on the offensive side of the ball with Nunn, Hill, and Finke. I've yet to be impressed with our offensive scheme under Groce. I'm most disappointed with the development defensively and our toughness. I realize we don't have a quality big in the middle, but our guards aren't able to keep most in front of them and we don't utilize them enough rebounding. The one positive is that he could have a very good team next year as the freshmen progress. I'll be patient enough for another year.
 
#671      

Illiniwek06

Illiniwek06
N of I-80
Illiniwek06
zpfled said:
I don't think we're going to get a 'splash' hire no matter what.

Drew seems to be a consistent conference winner, comes from a strong coaching family, former NBA player.

Again, I'm not looking to replace Groce yet, but if we did, I would be interested in Drew.
Click to expand...

I can't believe I'm asking this in a non-sarcastic way, but would Drew actually have interest in us?

For the record, I do believe Groce will be the HC next season.
 
#672      

WesterveltVictoryCigar

WesterveltVictoryCigar
WesterveltVictoryCigar
IlliniOX08 said:
I understand the sentiment and part of me agrees with you. But then again, if this roster had been constructed with balance, depth and had players had been developed this thread wouldn't exist. Despite the injuries.
Click to expand...

It wasn't perfect, but the roster did have depth, balance and developed players. When you strip out 4 of them and have several others missing parts of the offseason and regular season, that depth and balance is gone.
 
#673      

Newman

N
Newman
CrazedUIFan said:
Player development...I see individual player development on the offensive side of the ball with Nunn, Hill, and Finke. I've yet to be impressed with our offensive scheme under Groce. I'm most disappointed with the development defensively and our toughness. I realize we don't have a quality big in the middle, but our guards aren't able to keep most in front of them and we don't utilize them enough rebounding. The one positive is that he could have a very good team next year as the freshmen progress. I'll be patient enough for another year.
Click to expand...

We don't utilize our guards enough for rebounding? That's been the one thing I think our guards have been pretty good at during Groce's tenure. I think a big part of the reason why some players have struggled with their defense (besides youth) is the we aren't the most athletic team. This is why I love the addition of Kipper, even with our strength at the wing position. Nunn is a pretty good defender, but Hill, Finke, Morgan were at a disadvantage defensively from the get-go. I am quite pleased with Hill's improvement on the defensive end though.

With all that being said, this is the first year where defense has been a weakness, and that should have been expected with the loss of Egwu, and the loss of another important player that nobody talks about. Ekey was tremendous on defense almost every night, even he didn't have guady stats. Add in Rice, and you have 3 great defenders, which could be used to guard every spot on the floor (Egwu could effectively guard a 4-5, Ekey a 3-4, and Rice 1-3.
 
#674      

zpfled

Z
Logan Square, Chicago
zpfled
Illiniwek06 said:
I can't believe I'm asking this in a non-sarcastic way, but would Drew actually have interest in us?

For the record, I do believe Groce will be the HC next season.
Click to expand...

I don't know if he would, but we could offer him lotsa money, new arena, and if nothing else, a great stepping stone in his career.
 
#675      

Illiniwek06

Illiniwek06
N of I-80
Illiniwek06
zpfled said:
I don't know if he would, but we could offer him lotsa money, new arena, and if nothing else, a great stepping stone in his career.
Click to expand...

True, and agree that he's an interesting candidate if moves were made.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.