Not as simple as you make it out to be. Illinois isn't producing high D1 talent like it used to.
We've also lost our 'reputation momentum'
Not as simple as you make it out to be. Illinois isn't producing high D1 talent like it used to.
I said nothing about 1980 to today. I was pointing out that we had sustained success for much longer than the two relatively small bubbles of time you cited, which actually makes your original point stronger, not weaker. My point was from the '80s all the way through Dee (and to a lesser extent several years after him), we had a very good track record. There wasn't really that noteworthy of a dip between your two cited successful eras; they were really part of one, long, success streak.
Groce got bit by the injury bug pretty badly. Thorn never made it back to full health and loosing Nunn was what killed him. Thru it all he still had the teams on the bubble at tourney time.We went 6-12 in the Big Ten with three NBA players. With a team that was 15-3 and ranked in mid-January, having just beaten a massively talented Ohio State team.
From 2009-10 to 2014-15 we were ranked at one point or another in every season. We missed the tournament in FOUR of those six seasons. Same story in every single one, in the non-conference season when it's a low scouting data, short-preparation beauty contest, we more than held our own. When the season turned into a contest of excellent Big Ten coaches thoroughly scouting and gameplanning for one another, Illinois basketball folded like a cheap suit. Every single time.
There are two stories of how we got here. The Loyalty story, the sympathy-seeking ugly ducking tale of Eric Gordon's treachery and Cliff Alexander's hat trick and Quentin Snider's missing LOI is not an untrue story. That stuff all happened and was all damaging to us. But that story is woefully incomplete and totally misleading without the added context that we were also doing things like going 6-12 with three NBA players during the same period. The reason we're not a national power anymore is the recruiting story, we're not cutting down any nets with the players we've had. But the reason the program has been burnt to the ground is because our coaches have been utterly, shockingly incompetent with the fine, middle of the power conference curve talent they have had.
It just proves a point that if you can't get the best kids in the home state, how do you expect to get the best kids from other states.
If you look at the Illini history 1980-present there are two distinct eras (not the entire 1980-2012 era) that differentiate from the rest of the years with respect to Consistent Success & Talent. Those two eras are The 80s (End Years: 81-90) and Beginning of Millennium (End Years: 2000-06). That is 17 years (out of 38 total years) that completely differentiate from the rest (21 years) along the aforementioned parameters, defining the golden era of modern Illini basketball (for lack of better term). These two eras are comprised of consecutive years each.
Consistent Success:
- In the golden eras, we had a combined overall record of 421-135 (76%) and B1G conference record of 206-86 (71%). The rest of the years, we had a combined overall record of 394-290 (58%) and a B1G conference record of 174-198 (47%).
- In the golden eras we made the NCAA tournament 16 out of 17 years (1 NIT in 1982). The rest years we made the NCAA tournament 8 out of 21 years.
- In the golden eras we made 4 Sweet 16s, 2 Elite 8s, and 2 Final Fours. The rest of the years, we never made it past first weekend.
Talent:
- Out of our 13 McD All-Americans, 10 of them played in the golden era. Only 3 never played in the golden era (Deon Thomas, Richard Keene and Jeremy Richmond) and actually Thomas was recruited at the peak of 89 before probation (the paradox is that his recruitment led to probation).
- 18 Illini were selected as All-Americans during the golden eras, only 1 the rest of the years (again Deon Thomas in 1994, HM by AP).
- 8 Illini were selected on All-Regional NCAA Tournament Teams during the golden eras. None the rest of the years.
- 4 Illini have received B1G POY honors during the golden era. None the rest of the years.
- 17 Illini have been selected 1st Team All-B1G during the golden era. Only 2 the rest of the years.
As you can see, there is a startling difference in both consistent success AND talent during those 2 eras, compared with the rest of the years. So what happened the rest of the years? Two distinct eras: Probation & Post Probation/Recovery (the 90s), and the Post-Dee era (2007-2018). In the first era, the damage was exogenous (i.e., Probation) that significantly hindered talent infusion. In the second era, the damage was self-inflicted, making the wrong choice (i.e., Weber) that also hindered talent infusion.
I am a firm believer that consistent success and talent (via strong recruiting) go hand in hand as shown in Illini history above. Personally, I seriously doubt that we can achieve the first without the second. (Sorry for the long post).
I'd say the way you expect to do this is because one has no bearing on the other. For example, Syracuse doesn't get all of the best players from New York, yet they do pretty well for themselves, I'd say. Yes, we'd like to get more of the top players from Illinois, but really, I think we all just want good players so the team will start winning again. As long as that happens, I don't care if they are all from the Moon. Winning, in turn, will make it easier to recruit our top in-state talent.
I am honestly not sure why you continue to argue this point. My entire point is that the era between your two golden eras is not even that bad, and is lightyears ahead of the post-Dee era. In the 10 year between your golden eras (I'll dub it the interregnum, between the reigns of King Henson and King Self, though this does still include some Henson), we still went to 6 NCAA tournaments and had 2 of the remaining 3 MCDAAs (and in a shorter time frame than the current dark ages).
My only point is that we really had almost 30 years of sustained success and the talent level was undoubtedly higher (as well as the coaching level) during that entire era. You can remove the interregnum from your calculations or include it, but it doesn't really change the core point, and I honestly think leaving it in there makes your core point stronger (and more depressing).
Honestly, I am done arguing this. It's rather pointless. If you wish to only consider the golden eras as part of the good years, that is your prerogative. It doesn't alter the conclusion.
I'd agree with this, as far as the end result (i.e., best players from anywhere). But as far as reality though, if we can't get some of the best players from Illinois where we have some advantage as slight as it can be (e.g., location, MIF connection, etc.) what makes us optimistic that we can get some of the best players from other states?
One reason maybe a national recruiter, like Antigua. It actually puzzles me though that we have not seen that yet almost all coaches I talk to (most out-of-state) they all rave to me about Antigua (e.g., "Orlando is good..."). Maybe it is a matter of time, that is why I am more hopeful that somehow our recruiting momentum will change, rather than we will just find diamonds in the rough who will consistently overachieve.
It just proves a point that if you can't get the best kids in the home state, how do you expect to get the best kids from other states.
My entire point is that the era between your two golden eras is not even that bad...My only point is that we really had almost 30 years of sustained success and the talent level was undoubtedly higher (as well as the coaching level) during that entire era.
First, you included 32 years including the entire Weber era (through 2012) in your original post (post #82), which is also post-Dee. We have not had 32 years of consistent success and talent. That is not true. I gave you the numbers and clear breakouts including the comparisons, that was the clear consistent golden era of Illini basketball. The 90s were not, the B1G record during the in-between period that you claim is 52.5% compared to 71% in the golden era. It does not mean that there were not some scattered successes (as were in the post-Dee era) but probation had a clear negative impact on consistent success, talent/recruiting, team, and individual accolades.
And the entire Weber era was success? (your post #82) Do you honestly believe that? Nobody argues that the post-Dee era has not been even worse that the 90s (which includes Weber), certainly not me, but that was not part of your original post either.
Thank you!!! 99% of this thread needs to go somewhere besides the recruiting thread!! Ridiculous !!scanned this last page and I felt compelled to verify this was the illinoia hoops recruiting page....I thought maybe I fumbled on a new Illinois Eras past and Present thread. Interesting reading.
Any news on the anticipated Walker "silent verbal" commitment today?
And has nothing to do with current recruiting.....The tight relationship/correlation between consistent success and talent via strong recruiting supported with facts and analysis from Illini history is certainly pertinent to recruiting discussion. If you don't like it, don't read it.
This board would have one page a week if it was just limited to recruiting updates. I recommend twitter if you want to avoid these related albeit somewhat frustrating discussions on recruiting.And has nothing to do with current recruiting.....
Or the “Ignore” function.This board would have one page a week if it was just limited to recruiting updates. I recommend twitter if you want to avoid these related albeit somewhat frustrating discussions on recruiting.
I know he was Mr Basketball, but was Dee the top ranked prospect in the state or was that Dockery?Does anyone notice that all the players with the exception of D. WILLIAMS were from Illinois. Illinois used to get any player they wanted from the State, now besides Ayo we lose on all the good ones. Change this and we win again.
Meyers was a freaking monster that year. In my 7 years as a season ticket holder (05-06 to 11-12) the two player-seasons that stand out above the rest as just game-altering forces to watch in person were Dee's senior year and Meyers Leonard.
Hot Take! In the Loyalty Hivemind these are the 2 most overrated seasons.Meyers was good to maybe great here but never reached his potential. Could have been an all timer had he stayed, but I don't blame him. Now lets hope we can grab another nice big soon.
And has nothing to do with current recruiting.....
Dee Brown has a worse season by the numbers than his junior year when he was arguably the 3rd best guard on the team, but because Sporting news names him player of the year & besides everyone loves Dee this season becomes an altering force level.
Why do Obelix and 2nd and chalmers keep derailing threads with eeyore attitude? Look, most fans know we arent good right now and need to pick up recruiting, but please, lets focus on the current recruiting. Hopefully, we get a big to commit soon...
What's the best video available on Walker?
With Meyers it was just that he was a different sort of physical specimen than anyone else on the floor, no one could match up with him.
He was clearly the best guard on the team in 06, I was talking 05 with Deron & Luther.but I can't disagree more on him being the 3rd best guard on the team in 06. Dee's ability to disrupt an opposing offense with his ball pressure was extraordinary, something that really came through seeing it live.
You seem to be making 2 points here: For 03, We had Luther Head, Nick Smith, and Jack Ingram all listed in 2001 as well, whileThe legend of Self the recruiter is slightly overstated. That's true at Kansas too actually.
Here are all the top 100 guys in Self's classes versus Weber's late run
2001: #62 Roger Powell
2002: #19 Dee Brown, #48 Deron Williams, #78 James Augustine, #86 Aaron Spears
2003: #28 Rich McBride, #53 Brian Randle
Four NBA players, only one of any meaningful length, among that group, who was also the only first rounder and only lottery pick
('03-04, 13-3 1st in B1G; '04-05, 15-1 1st in B1G; '05-06, 11-5 T-2nd in B1G)
2009: #35 DJ Richardson, #49 Brandon Paul
2010: #24 Jereme Richmond, #29 Meyers Leonard, #76 Crandall Head
2011: #65 Mike Shaw, #66 Myke Henry, #69 Tracy Abrams, #78 Nnanna Egwu
Three NBA players, only one of any meaningful length (so far) among that group, who was also the only first rounder and only lottery pick
('11-12, 6-12 9th in B1G; '12-13 8-10 T-7th in B1G; '13-14 7-11 T-8th in B1G)