New Mexico State 74, Illinois 69 POSTGAME

#176      

jrichisamazing

J
jrichisamazing
Second and Chalmers said:
Folks are just not watching the same games I am. :noidea:
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Top 20 is probably a stretch, but if you erase like 6 bad plays then we probably only have 1 loss right now, 4 top 100 wins, 2-0 in the B1G, and zero bad losses. 6 plays is the difference between arguing about being able to finish 4th in the league, or arguing about being able to make the NIT.

I maintain my statement that if these 5 games were in February we would be 4-1 or 5-0. Could be wrong, but I have no clue how you can't at least see the potential for that to be true.
 
#177      

jrichisamazing

J
jrichisamazing
Illiini said:
This is an "if" but not a "big if": What if those games we had lost by a point or two, or we hadn't made one goof that sent us into OT, what if those games had been W's instead of L's? It wouldn't have taken much for this team to be undefeated at this point, just a smidge away. What would the mood of this forum/thread be with what was the same team?
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Exactly. Unfortunately some people can only see W's and L's and nothing else matters.
 
#179      

Deleted member 631370

D
Guest
Deleted member 631370
jrichisamazing said:
Exactly. Unfortunately some people can only see W's and L's and nothing else matters.
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At the end of the day, the W-L column is really what we care about. So in that sense, we have to learn how to finish games.

But yes, I agree to a large extent. Anytime you're evaluating a young team -- especially a young team implementing a brand new system with a brand new coach -- progress isn't measured solely in W-L. Frankly, I don't think this season is nearly old enough to really measure progress from the start of the season to now.

To measure progress, you need a baseline. Beating a bunch of really, really bad cupcakes early isn't much of a baseline. Our stretch over the past few weeks is probably our initial baseline -- this gives us a sense for what we're dealing with. Now, we'll need to measure our performance over the next few months against that baseline.

Suggesting that we're getting worse or we're not showing improvement is an extremely premature thing to say. Perhaps we're regressing if one uses our 100+ point game against Southern as our baseline, but that's a pretty poor move.
 
#180      

TCTORNADO

TCTORNADO
TCTORNADO
Illini Beer 4 All said:
What inbounds play. That play that should have won the game, literally no one moved. 4 guys all standing there reaching. It was atrocious.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
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Good catch!! Part of it might have been Jordan panicked and threw the lob pass before the play could develop or as you pointed out TJL, Frazier and Finke literally did not move 2 feet from their original spot. Black the 4th guy clumsily fell down. Also TJL should have done everything possible to prevent Harris from scoring, instead he made a poor block attempt and ultimately fouled. Plenty of blame to go around including the coaching staff who looked like a Chinese fire drill in the huddle before the play. The spacing on that play was also atrocious. Oh well one play didn't lose that game.:thumb:
 
#181      

BRucks

BRucks
BRucks
TeamWilliams said:
If they schedule more Chicago games they should all be fired
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Hey, according to the box score there were 5695 faithful fans there. Or were there? In some past years they included the United Center game in the student season tickets (to pad the stats for tickets sold). Not sure if Whitman stopped that.
 
#182      

Ransom Stoddard

Ransom Stoddard
Ordained Dudeist Priest
Bloomington, IL
Ransom Stoddard
9 pages of mostly hot takes. I'm not sure what's more entertaining, watching people dive headfirst off the bandwagon, or watching them jump back on in 2 years.
 
#183      

Second and Chalmers

S
Second and Chalmers
BRucks said:
Hey, according to the box score there were 5695 faithful fans there. Or were there? In some past years they included the United Center game in the student season tickets (to pad the stats for tickets sold). Not sure if Whitman stopped that.
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It was all of that number.

Very empty, but not as empty as it was against UIC two years ago, where a lot of the 5,151 announced must have been hiding in the bathrooms ;)
 
#187      

Begreatallthetime23

B
Begreatallthetime23
Verified Insider said:
The only question is, how big a difference will it make? The answer to that rests on a few things: (1) How improved does Mark Smith become, (2) What do we add to our front court, and (3) how quickly does Ayo step in and assert himself as the PG.

If Smith figures it out.....if Ayo does what 5* PGs usually do......and if we add a quality big that can give us 15+ minutes, I think we have all the pieces for a very good basketball team. But those are really big IFs.
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Great post but the issue is Smith is playing out of position. Smith is a true PG and would probably better service this current squad by having the ball in his hands during crunch time.

This team has tried to use him in the position less offense as a 2/3 when truly the team would be better served with him coming off the high ball screens on the back side due to his ability to finish at the hoop...IMO
 
#189      

Spoon House

Spoon House
Spoon House
jrichisamazing said:
... if you erase like 6 bad plays...
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Is that you, Beckman?

Instead of erasing 6 bad plays, I'd rather erase our lack of team identity. That's the most Groce-like characteristic the team has retained and it's what continues to kill us, just as it has killed us for the past several seasons. Until the team buys into a system and develops a "guy," we're going to be milling around out there. Don't get me wrong, it's kinda fun to have a team where any 1 of 6 players could be our leading scorer... but the flipside is that there's no real rhyme or reason as to who goes off and when. We need consistency. We have no reliable weapon.

Once Underwood establishes his culture this lack of identity will go away... he imposes his will upon the teams he coaches until it sinks in. Until then, we are fated to watch in dismay as more close games slip out of our hands because we are still mentally weak on the court.
 
#190      

Illiniaaron

I
Geneseo, IL
Illiniaaron
jrichisamazing said:
Top 20 is probably a stretch, but if you erase like 6 bad plays then we probably only have 1 loss right now, 4 top 100 wins, 2-0 in the B1G, and zero bad losses. 6 plays is the difference between arguing about being able to finish 4th in the league, or arguing about being able to make the NIT.

I maintain my statement that if these 5 games were in February we would be 4-1 or 5-0. Could be wrong, but I have no clue how you can't at least see the potential for that to be true.
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Bad teams lose a lot of close games in all sports. The really bad ones lose all the close ones, like Illinois is doing now. That's like saying the Bears are six bad plays away from being 9-5 instead of 4-10. It doesn't mean anything.
 
#191      

Obelix

Obelix
Obelix
I am sorry but all this discussion about buy-in, culture, attitude, lack of adaptation to a system, resistance to new coaching staff, etc. is nothing more than perennial excuses. The level of overall talent in the last 12 years (other than 2010-11) has not been where it should be. This year is no difference, we clearly lack the players and talent in the frontcourt and it is more than obvious.

We keep talking about players "not buying in" for more than a decade. Like if a player commits to Illinois, he becomes an automatic head case resistant to adapting to a system, versus the players who commit to MSU, KU, Duke, UK, UNC, etc. who have their head straight and have better attitude.

College basketball and the B1G are full of great coaches. Just in the B1G, Izzo, Painter, Beilein, Turgeon, Archie... and the rest are no slouch either. You are not going to consistently outsmart them and outsystem them. You can't... You can bring all the system and culture in the world, you will not be able to consistently compete with Izzo and his stable of talent unless you get the horses yourself.
 
#192      

jrichisamazing

J
jrichisamazing
Obelix said:
I am sorry but all this discussion about buy-in, culture, attitude, lack of adaptation to a system, resistance to new coaching staff, etc. is nothing more than perennial excuses. The level of overall talent in the last 12 years (other than 2010-11) has not been where it should be. This year is no difference, we clearly lack the players and talent in the frontcourt and it is more than obvious.

We keep talking about players "not buying in" for more than a decade. Like if a player commits to Illinois, he becomes an automatic head case resistant to adapting to a system, versus the players who commit to MSU, KU, Duke, UK, UNC, etc. who have their head straight and have better attitude.

College basketball and the B1G are full of great coaches. Just in the B1G, Izzo, Painter, Beilein, Turgeon, Archie... and the rest are no slouch either. You are not going to consistently outsmart them and outsystem them. You can't... You can bring all the system and culture in the world, you will not be able to consistently compete with Izzo and his stable of talent unless you get the horses yourself.
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Nobody is saying we have the talent to compete with the top of the B1G, that's obvious. But the talent we have is good enough to regularly finish middle of the pack in the B1G and be a 6-10 seed in the tournament. But that's only if we have an identity, established culture, and play together. With the talent we have the whole needs to be bigger than the sum, a good coach can do that.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
 
#193      

UIGrad03

U
UIGrad03
Have we really had the talent and roster/class balance to be middle of the pack in a tough B1G these past however many years?

Having some nice pieces at any given time doesn’t make up for gaping roster holes at critical positions. The lead guard position was a complete disaster under Groce, whose system relies on a dynamic playmaker at lead guard. The only success he had here was when he had BP3.

Now we have a solid young backcourt and a screaming need for legit frontcourt presence. Our biggest guy is a stretch 4, and the only guy who can reliably score in the post is a 6’7” guy that a lot of people here argued whether he was a 3 or 4 coming out of HS. And not only are we undersized in the front court, we are slllloooowwwww.

All that said, I don’t see a bad team this year. I see a lot of young guys playing hard in a new system they haven’t fully absorbed yet, doing everything they can to make up for some glaring roster deficiencies and lack of experience. I don’t think we are that far at all given the pieces we have, but we absolutely have to shore up the front line.
 
#194      

blmillini

B
Bloomington, IL
blmillini
All this lack of identity talk is crap. What we are missing is the same thing we have been missing for years and that is a competent big, and especially one that can defend.
 
#195      

SKane

SKane
Tennessee
SKane
blmillini said:
All this lack of identity talk is crap. What we are missing is the same thing we have been missing for years and that is a competent big, and especially one that can defend.
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Egwu could defend very well. I am sorry to be off topic.
 
#197      

Thor015

T
Thor015
Sometimes I wonder if some people just wake up with poo in their shoes everyday or if they were just born a certain way
 
#198      

Fearless Illini

F
Fearless Illini
Begreatallthetime23 said:
Great post but the issue is Smith is playing out of position. Smith is a true PG and would probably better service this current squad by having the ball in his hands during crunch time.

This team has tried to use him in the position less offense as a 2/3 when truly the team would be better served with him coming off the high ball screens on the back side due to his ability to finish at the hoop...IMO
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I agree that Smith should be running the point. But, coming off the bench and probably not in crunch time just yet. Trent and Te'jon seem to be playing a little quicker and with more confidence. Smith's time will come. Hope he gets more time with the ball in his hands.
 
#199      

Deleted member 631370

D
Guest
Deleted member 631370
blmillini said:
And if we had Egwu on this team we may not have lost uet.
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I was thinking about this last night.

This team + Egwu is probably 11-2 right now. Heck, this team + Tilmon is 11-2 at worst.

None of that matters, of course. All teams can pose various hypotheticals that make them much better than what they are. But it does illuminate what the root problem is -- and that root problem is the lack of a big man who can defend the rim.

The stuff about identity and learning the system and whatnot is still valid. There is typically a learning curve early, and we're experiencing it. But that's not the biggest obstacle we're trying to overcome. And unfortunately, our biggest obstacle isn't one we can overcome without recruiting more big guys.

In the meantime, we can try to limit the damage by executing better in other phases of the game. I suspect we'll do that over time. But it takes time. The problem is, even this team's best is going to fall short of where some here think we ought to be this season.
 
#200      

NJILLINI

N
Castle Pines, Colorado
NJILLINI
Ransom Stoddard said:
The cancer started under Guenther. Mike Thomas just made it worse.
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Yep, the last ten years of Guenther were where Illinois FB and BB started their slide. Mike Thomas just made sure it continued...and at an accelerated rate.

Between former ADs and HCs, I'm convinced you would not have done any worse if you had chosen them (or chosen to retain them past their useful life date) by simply throwing darts or turning name cards. To think these people were the best available would be laughable if it wasn't just so downright sad. I think we will be fine in BB but it will take a couple of years. Football? My personal favorite but am not sure we will ever see even Mackovic/White-type of success in the next decade with the current staff. It think it might take an SEC-type hire (big $$$$$) if we are to ever get back and dont see us doing that.