North Carolina Academic Fraud Investigation

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#126      

illiniCA

illiniCA
DC Area
illiniCA
Serious question.

How many people are actually offended by this? I think it is something that should be cleaned up but I will always feel like UNC won the tournament that year and I don't feel at all "cheated" because of what they were doing.

I also don't have a problem with easy majors existing for athletes and athletes getting accepted to good schools even though they are not as smart as other applicants. As long as sports don't prevent a player from picking his major of choice I am OK with it.

It is kind of hard to explain I guess.
 
#128      

Hands Malone

H
Quad-Cities, IL
Hands Malone
Just ban any of their teams from post season bowls and tournaments for two or three years and move on.
 
#129      

gibb52

G
gibb52
illiniCA said:
Serious question.

How many people are actually offended by this? I think it is something that should be cleaned up but I will always feel like UNC won the tournament that year and I don't feel at all "cheated" because of what they were doing.

I also don't have a problem with easy majors existing for athletes and athletes getting accepted to good schools even though they are not as smart as other applicants. As long as sports don't prevent a player from picking his major of choice I am OK with it.

It is kind of hard to explain I guess.
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It's really hard for me to wrap my mind around this kind of thinking.
 
#130      

gibb52

G
gibb52
How many out there think BB players at UConn, Syracuse, Lville, KY, and Kansas are involved in serious acedemic endeavors?

How many FB players at LSU, Clemson, FSU, Auburn and Ohio St?

The UNC thing is likely going on at multiple places in some form or another. Shameful.
 
#131      

illynifan34

I
That's a winner!!
OH
illynifan34
bombayIllini said:
Typically everyone slides one slot up.

What is the NCAA policy? Seems like they do not give the NT to the runnerup.
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That is exactly my point. There is no one to "slide up". There is no third place team. The policy to have the championship be vacant.
 
#133      

illiniCA

illiniCA
DC Area
illiniCA
Joel Goodson said:
+1

Do the crime, do the time.
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I agree. Rules are rules and you have to follow them. I am not saying they shouldn't be punished. I am more or less questioning the structure of academics in college sports. I don't have an answer. The overall situation is clear cut to me.

For example

1. Should athletes be given preferential admittance to schools compared to students who are academically superior.

2. If you university A has lower standards and a lot of grad inflating classes that athletes end up taking. Is it far for other universities to create similar classes?

3. Since a university is the basically the minor leagues for football and basketball what expectation should I have of athletes? Should I expect them to fully leverage the opportunity they have academically or just be satisfied that they are presented with a opportunity and they can take it if they want.


BTW. Baseball may not be as popular as NCAAFB and NCAABB but it really has a lot this figured out with the draft and minor league structure they have created.
 
#134      

IlliniJim20

I
IlliniJim20
illiniCA said:
I agree. Rules are rules and you have to follow them. I am not saying they shouldn't be punished. I am more or less questioning the structure of academics in college sports. I don't have an answer. The overall situation is clear cut to me.

For example

1. Should athletes be given preferential admittance to schools compared to students who are academically superior.

Athletes aren't the only ones given preferential treatment ;)

2. If you university A has lower standards and a lot of grad inflating classes that athletes end up taking. Is it far for other universities to create similar classes?

Gee dad, everyone else was drinking at the party . . .

3. Since a university is the basically the minor leagues for football and basketball what expectation should I have of athletes? Should I expect them to fully leverage the opportunity they have academically or just be satisfied that they are presented with a opportunity and they can take it if they want.


BTW. Baseball may not be as popular as NCAAFB and NCAABB but it really has a lot this figured out with the draft and minor league structure they have created.
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Agree about baseball.
 
#135      

illini8507

illini8507
illini8507
illynifan34 said:
That is exactly my point. There is no one to "slide up". There is no third place team. The policy to have the championship be vacant.
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I think he means based off the final rankings, rather than the tournament.

Only problem with that that I can think of, is the four teams in the final four don't necessarily finished ranked 1-4. If you were the tourney runner up, but the coaches poll put you at 3, there would be legitimate beef.
 
#136      

OrangeAndBlue217

O
Decatur, IL
OrangeAndBlue217
gibb52 said:
How many out there think BB players at UConn, Syracuse, Lville, KY, and Kansas are involved in serious acedemic endeavors?

How many FB players at LSU, Clemson, FSU, Auburn and Ohio St?

The UNC thing is likely going on at multiple places in some form or another. Shameful.
Click to expand...

I think it would be naive to think that something of the nature isnt going on at every school. Yes, even Illinois.
 
#137      

ilphotog

ilphotog
The camera never lies
Champaign
ilphotog
? If a student was found to have taken these classes and it can be proven that they didn't do the required work, can their Degree be revoked etc ?
 
#138      

DaytonIllini

D
Guest
DaytonIllini
illiniCA said:
Serious question.

How many people are actually offended by this? I think it is something that should be cleaned up but I will always feel like UNC won the tournament that year and I don't feel at all "cheated" because of what they were doing.

I also don't have a problem with easy majors existing for athletes and athletes getting accepted to good schools even though they are not as smart as other applicants. As long as sports don't prevent a player from picking his major of choice I am OK with it.

It is kind of hard to explain I guess.
Click to expand...

I am with you. While they should be punished because that is the rule everyone is supposed to play under I have a really hard time getting worked up about this. We all know a big chunk of these guys are barely literate. To think that most schools are not greasing the grades for them is simply being a denialist or having your head in the sand.

I have said it before. If you are supremely gifted at something but essentially bad at something else, why waste time with the something else? If you are a virtuoso pianist, is it important that you take two years of foreign language? Does the world-class mathematician really need to be able to understand English and Shakespeare? Does a guy that is supremely gifted at bouncing a rubber ball really need to be able to read?

We all should strive to be more than we are but the advances in the world come from people that are supremely gifted at something. The well-rounded guy makes a great school teacher or dentist but is a lot less likely to cure HIV.

Let the ballplayers dispense with the charade of being students. Let them major in basketball if they want and let's stop trying to police nonsense.
 
#140      

Combo

C
Combo
Mike said:
I disagree.
Many may think I'm naive, but IMO the integrity and competency for the entire leadership of the university over the last 18 years is now in question.
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Big-time college sports is a prostitution of higher education. It's disgusting what the universities have done to themselves.

If I had a child contemplating where to go to college right now, I think I'd steer them away from any university with a "name" football or basketball program.

The way college baseball does it is better (though not necessarily perfect).
Let kids that have no desire to go to college go to a minor league and "prep" for the majors.
 
#141      

pizzaman

pizzaman
Northwoods of Wisconsin
pizzaman
DaytonIllini said:
I have said it before. If you are supremely gifted at something but essentially bad at something else, why waste time with the something else? If you are a virtuoso pianist, is it important that you take two years of foreign language? Does the world-class mathematician really need to be able to understand English and Shakespeare? Does a guy that is supremely gifted at bouncing a rubber ball really need to be able to read?
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No one forces the pianist to attend a university. There are music conservatories where the education is music. No one forces an artist or an actor into a university and no one forces a basketball player to attend a university. You can become great in any of these areas without university degrees.

If you choose to attend a university, you can select a major (why not offer a major in basketball?) but as the dean of my college told me, "when you receive your degree from the UI, I want you to be educated." That expectation should apply to everyone, including music majors, artists and athletes.
 
#142      

UofIChE06

U
Pittsburgh
UofIChE06
For those saying this happens at every major conference school I find that hard to believe.

There is a fine line between "easy" majors and classes and majors that are a complete sham. I have no problem with majors that are open to all students and are substantially easier than other programs. I do have a problem with a program where the student doesn't even show up to class or have to do any actual class work.

There is a different.
 
#143      

Joel Goodson

Joel Goodson
ties will be resolved
Joel Goodson
UofIChE06 said:
For those saying this happens at every major conference school I find that hard to believe.

There is a fine line between "easy" majors and classes and majors that are a complete sham. I have no problem with majors that are open to all students and are substantially easier than other programs. I do have a problem with a program where the student doesn't even show up to class or have to do any actual class work.

There is a different.
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I don't think the divide is a fine line. Big difference between "easy"/"easier" majors and fraud.
 
#144      

Foo G

F
Kirksville, MO
Foo G
The NCAA takes academic frog very seriously.
 
#145      

Xfactr

Xfactr
Lake Forest, IL
Xfactr
#146      

Mike

Mike
C-U Townie
Mike
illiniCA said:
Why would you not hire students from theses schools. That makes no sense. Its not like they are handing out grades to non student athletes in advanced classes.
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Maybe my opinion wasn't clear enough.
I didn't say a degree from NC was now garbage, and not to hire their graduates. I tried to imply that with their recent record, I don't blindly trust them to get the academic side right. Their academic programs are probably clean, but I don't simply trust them to be that way. See the difference?

I guess people will disagree what to do when you are caught with your hand in the cookie jar. ;)
 
#147      

Mike

Mike
C-U Townie
Mike
DaytonIllini said:
I am with you. While they should be punished because that is the rule everyone is supposed to play under I have a really hard time getting worked up about this. We all know a big chunk of these guys are barely literate. To think that most schools are not greasing the grades for them is simply being a denialist or having your head in the sand.

I have said it before. If you are supremely gifted at something but essentially bad at something else, why waste time with the something else? If you are a virtuoso pianist, is it important that you take two years of foreign language? Does the world-class mathematician really need to be able to understand English and Shakespeare? Does a guy that is supremely gifted at bouncing a rubber ball really need to be able to read?

We all should strive to be more than we are but the advances in the world come from people that are supremely gifted at something. The well-rounded guy makes a great school teacher or dentist but is a lot less likely to cure HIV.

Let the ballplayers dispense with the charade of being students. Let them major in basketball if they want and let's stop trying to police nonsense.
Click to expand...

Well, there is the argument that it's easiest to improve what you are weakest at and don't practice.
 
#148      

Mike

Mike
C-U Townie
Mike
Combo said:
Big-time college sports is a prostitution of higher education. It's disgusting what the universities have done to themselves.

If I had a child contemplating where to go to college right now, I think I'd steer them away from any university with a "name" football or basketball program.

The way college baseball does it is better (though not necessarily perfect).
Let kids that have no desire to go to college go to a minor league and "prep" for the majors.
Click to expand...

IMHO, minor league is kind of what we have at universities now. :(



illinicb said:
What will be interesting is how this is viewed in the public. I think when there are scandals involving money, some/many people take the view that the player earned it, rules be damned. With blatant academic fraud, I don't think there will be many defenders.
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Well, the locals might revere the program enough to cut their program some slack. But yeah, how the public views this and what that means to the university would be interesting to know.
 
#149      

pizzaman

pizzaman
Northwoods of Wisconsin
pizzaman
Mike said:
Well, the locals might revere the program enough to cut their program some slack. But yeah, how the public views this and what that means to the university would be interesting to know.
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I don't think I've ever met anyone who attended or graduated from any college who believed that their school cheated on academics. Someone else pointed out that it is common knowledge that most athletes take "soft" classes but the there is expectation that they are actually attending classes and doing some academic work.
 
#150      

wpr

wpr
wpr
pizzaman said:
I don't think I've ever met anyone who attended or graduated from any college who believed that their school cheated on academics. Someone else pointed out that it is common knowledge that most athletes take "soft" classes but the there is expectation that they are actually attending classes and doing some academic work.
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My secretary and I were just discussing this concept when it comes to parenting. (She is expecting her 1st.) In general most parents tend t have a blind eye to the antics of their kids and don't think it possible for them to do wrong.
 
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