North Carolina Academic Fraud Investigation

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#201      

DaytonIllini

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DaytonIllini
WesterveltVictoryCigar said:
Sorry, I misstated the quote I had read. They can still give degrees, but having a degree from a non-credited university has far less value.

Yes, it's probably unlikely it goes that far. I remember similar saber-rattling during the PSU investigation. But it's definitely another black mark on their reputation and more incentive to take it more seriously than it seems they have been.
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Thanks for the clarification. I was thinking of the absurdity of not letting one of the top universities in the world give degrees while still allowing some of the absolutely wretched Div I schools give them.
 
#202      

Joel Goodson

Joel Goodson
dawgville
Joel Goodson
WesterveltVictoryCigar said:
Sorry, I misstated the quote I had read. They can still give degrees, but having a degree from a non-credited university has far less value.

Yes, it's probably unlikely it goes that far. I remember similar saber-rattling during the PSU investigation. But it's definitely another black mark on their reputation and more incentive to take it more seriously than it seems they have been.
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It will never go that far, but UNC's admin needs to realize they are in it and it's serious.
 
#203      

WesterveltVictoryCigar

WesterveltVictoryCigar
WesterveltVictoryCigar
Another article from last year on the accreditation issue, this has been going on for a while:

News Observer

CHAPEL HILL — Nearly 50 current students and more than 300 alumni who took fraudulent African studies courses at UNC-Chapel Hill may be heading back to class.

That’s part of the university’s plan to “make whole” the academic degrees of 384 students who took the classes from 1997 to 2009 in what has become a reputation-smearing scandal at UNC-CH.

The plan was accepted Thursday by the university’s accreditor, the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools Commission on Colleges, which decided to monitor UNC-CH for a year instead of imposing a sanction. The decision came as a big relief to university leaders who for months have been answering questions from a SACS review team.

By undertaking the do-over for affected students and alumni, the university managed to avoid probation or a warning from SACS – sanctions that can be a prelude to loss of accreditation. Colleges cannot get federal funding for research or financial aid if they are not accredited.
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#204      

wpr

wpr
wpr
WesterveltVictoryCigar said:
Another article from last year on the accreditation issue, this has been going on for a while:
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A few years ago my niece was helping to set up accreditation for a program at for a local college. (I think it was for speech therapy.) There were students from IL and IA attending. IA had easier regulations than IL did. She was really upset at the lack of assistance and the red tape IL was providing. She was telling me that the students were getting close to graduation and there was going to be issues if they tried to get jobs in IL. In the end she was able to push it through but it was not easy.

I don't know about Federal funding but a lot rides on being accredited somewhere.
 
#205      

IlliniJim20

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IlliniJim20
Combo said:
But was UK's violation(s) academic fraud or just paying players?

I think the more relevant comparison is Minnesota's academic fraud when Clem Haskins was there. I think the NCAA came down pretty hard on Minny and UNC's violations are much more serious.

Of course Minny isn't a blue blood like UNC.
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Thanks combo, Minnesota was the example for which I was looking. Interesting because it was an academic scandal, AND now a blue blood is involved.

Call me biased, but if I were in charge, I would use certain penalties as a benchmark. Illinois was hammered for relatively little. The punishment did not fit the crime IMO. Be that as it may, measure more serious crimes against ours, and mete out punishment accordingly.

In similar fashion, any academic violations should use Minnesota as a benchmark. This might hold true, except it is UNC.
 
#206      

jeffs

jeffs
jeffs
The feds don't do the accreditation they let regional or specialty associations handle that. There are a few of them. Perhaps you've heard of the North Central Association? They handle institutions in the "midwest". You have to wonder about the degree of shopping that can be done. The annual fees for the North Central Association looked to be not inexpensive.

http://www2.ed.gov/admins/finaid/accred/accreditation_pg6.html
 
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#207      

IlliniJim20

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IlliniJim20
WesterveltVictoryCigar said:
Sorry, I misstated the quote I had read. They can still give degrees, but having a degree from a non-accredited university has far less value.

Yes, it's probably unlikely it goes that far. I remember similar saber-rattling during the PSU investigation. But it's definitely another black mark on their reputation and more incentive to take it more seriously than it seems they have been.
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Wasn't our university also threatened with decertification with regard to the Chief?
 
#209      

illinicb

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Northbrook
illinicb
IlliniJim20 said:
Wasn't our university also threatened with decertification with regard to the Chief?
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My recollection is that the issued was raised. Not sure how serious it was, but there was concern in that regard.
 
#210      

IlliniJim20

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IlliniJim20
I have not read the linked articles. But thank you for providing.

Given the brief quotes, I am wondering if the NCAA has an out wrt to punishing UNC basketball. It would appear this scandal goes beyond the athletic department to include "regular" students. Therefore, the NCAA can say UNC did not provide impermissible benefits to athletes only and it is an accreditation issue, not just an athletic issue.

Therefore, expect UNC Wilmington to get severe sanctions ;)
 
#211      

Letswinagain

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Letswinagain
illinicb said:
I was being sarcastic. At least in the clip I heard, he couldn't be LESS contrite. As someone pointed out, I'm sure someone will coach him up on what to say or not say going forward.
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Ah! Too early in the day for my sarcasm meter to have been warmed up. :D

Besides, I've always had a short fuse for "Roy Boy." The man has been a fraud for a loooong time, and has elevated duplicity to an art form.
 
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#212      

SeattleSlim

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SeattleSlim
DaytonIllini said:
Thanks for the clarification. I was thinking of the absurdity of not letting one of the top universities in the world give degrees while still allowing some of the absolutely wretched Div I schools give them.
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Not sure that would be any more absurd than downsizing/splitting up a "too big to fail" financial institution that got caught abusing its system.

It might be impractical and might cause pain for some, but to let it continue without a dose of the same medicine a smaller institution would likely be forced to swallow for the same infraction wouldn't really be ethical, moral, or just ... would it???
 
#213      

Deleted member 16340

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Deleted member 16340
Accreditation must be maintained to continue the flow of several types of federal funding. For example, I work with veterans and many veterans get various types of tuition assistance. If the school loses it's accreditation, veterans go on the hook for those costs. It is closing down a couple of for-profit schools out here in California. I'm not sure of the level of impact on state institutions, but I assume it would be equivalent.
 
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#214      

Calvin

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Calvin
DaytonIllini said:
Calvin - I really like your posts but this is a bit over the top.

Two top 50 colleges blacklisted for the behavior of their athletic departments or administration? Should we not blacklist USC by that measure? SMU? Heck even Illinois? I don't feel particularly tainted by the MANY scandals at U of I (Slush fund, football sanctions, basketball sanctions with Deon, Law School improprieties, Med School improprieties, Bill Ayers, Solaita, etc. etc.).

The problem with this isn't an issue for a chemistry graduate from Chapel Hill. It's an issue for the athletic department in my opinion.
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I think you can make a case both ways, and the vast majority would agree with a pragmatic approach which you seem to support. However, let's look at it in a more simplistic way:

A company makes a product of questionable quality. They blame a supplier, and insist there's only a minor percentage of bad products out there. Do you as a consumer purchase from them? Who should be held accountable?

It's a fair moral question about how to handle it. I agree he's a hard-liner, but I also think there's a valid point there.
 
#215      

illineuron

I
illineuron
Just saw a scroll on ESPN that former fb player McAdoo is organizing a class action suit citing the failure of UNC to fulfill the contract of providing a quality education for students. All students who took the 'fake' classes are encouraged to participate

I'm not a lawyer but I did watch Perry Mason a bunch of times. Law suits open the door to subpoenas and testimony under oath/perjury; stuff the NCAA can't do even if they wanted to.

Interested in seeing how this develops. My guess is UNC ponies up something to stay out of court if the suit comes to fruition.
 
#218      

JudsonFTS

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JudsonFTS
And there is the link to Roy Williams. Ridiculous to think Roy and his staff did not know this was going on. During the second semester, when the team was busy McCants never had a class to attend.....Never.

Walden, the academic advisor in the basketball program knew, but can't recall if he "ever told Williams". Really........
 
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#219      

illinicb

I
Northbrook
illinicb
JudsonFTS said:
And there is the link to Roy Williams. Ridiculous to think Roy and his staff did not know this was going on. During the second semester, when the team was busy McCants never had a class to attend.....Never.

Walden, the academic advisor in the basketball program knew, but can't recall if he "ever told Williams". Really........
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Yup. Of course Roy knew what was going on. The fact that he brought an academic advisor from KU to UNC is interesting as well. Do we think these things were not going on at KU? Probably not, but it wouldn't shock me.
 
#220      

FeelYourPaign

FeelYourPaign
So Cal
FeelYourPaign
It will take a few months to play out, but the Duke student section will have a few things to say about this in the conference season.
 
#221      

Deleted member 4333

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Deleted member 4333
Clearly this isn’t the only example of academic fraud since even stellar institutions such as Duke, Harvard and the Naval Academy have been tainted by scandal with student-athletes in recent years, but the North Carolina example stands out as an egregious case of systematic institutional abuse. The eight month investigation by Mr. Wainstein has opened a Pandora’s Box of misconduct far more egregious than anyone imagined when the investigation began.
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http://townhall.com/columnists/herb...ic-fraud-and-big-time-college-sports-n1915794
 
#222      

DaytonIllini

D
Guest
DaytonIllini
illineuron said:
Just saw a scroll on ESPN that former fb player McAdoo is organizing a class action suit citing the failure of UNC to fulfill the contract of providing a quality education for students. All students who took the 'fake' classes are encouraged to participate

I'm not a lawyer but I did watch Perry Mason a bunch of times. Law suits open the door to subpoenas and testimony under oath/perjury; stuff the NCAA can't do even if they wanted to.

Interested in seeing how this develops. My guess is UNC ponies up something to stay out of court if the suit comes to fruition.
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You are right that this would be a good way to get to the bottom of it. OTOH, think of the chutzpah on a loser like McAdoo. A guy who as an adult VOLUNTARILY takes advantage of a system and then turns around and sues over it. There is zero chance (and I mean zero) that these athletes didn't know what they were doing when they took these classes. I would think that this would get thrown out unless he can show that the players were either FORCED to take these classes or DUPED into taking what they believed to be real classes. Otherwise they were willing participants in a conspiracy. I don't think co-conspirators can sue each other for pursuing a fraud.
 
#223      

Joel Goodson

Joel Goodson
dawgville
Joel Goodson
illinicb said:
Yup. Of course Roy knew what was going on. The fact that he brought an academic advisor from KU to UNC is interesting as well. Do we think these things were not going on at KU? Probably not, but it wouldn't shock me.
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Damn straight. Coaches are control freaks and there's no freaking way Ol' Roy didn't know what was going on (not saying he knew all the details). All coaches keep tabs on academic eligibility. Doubt if there's a paper trail though.
 
#224      

Groundhogday

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Guest
Groundhogday
illinicb said:
Yup. Of course Roy knew what was going on. The fact that he brought an academic advisor from KU to UNC is interesting as well. Do we think these things were not going on at KU? Probably not, but it wouldn't shock me.
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It is ludicrous to think otherwise.
 
#225      

Botb9

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Botb9
Groundhogday said:
It is ludicrous to think otherwise.
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You're in a bad situation as the coach when this type of stuff comes out. If you say you were aware, you're in possibly more hot water than the school. If you say you weren't aware, you expose the program under the "lack of institutional control" clause. In this case, Roy Boy just needs to protect himself.
 
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