Northwestern 73, Illinois 60 Postgame

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#451      
Mostly a lurker on here but after reading all these "Screaming vs. Not Screaming" discussion I have a few ideas that I would like to pose and get feedback on.

Before I pose my ideas, here's my story: I am a lower level NCAA coach for the last 8 years and I've had some success (multiple conference titles and NCAA tourney berths) and I was very much a yeller at first. I tend to consider myself a bit of an "old school" coach but I've had to adapt as time has passed as well I would say that I am 50% as explosive as I used to be, specifically in coaching my "post-Covid" players.

I am also a high school educator and I can say without hesitation that the modern student is vastly different than when I started coaching/teaching about 15 years ago. The term I use is that the modern student/athlete is a lot more brittle. This is a generalization and there are many who don't fall into this category but overall "the cracking point" of many happens a lot sooner. These factors have led to me to some questions.

So here are the questions:

1. Does the modern coach need to be more adaptable in terms of their coaching style in terms of the modern student athlete? Underwood has been coaching for 30+ years at various levels. Can we assume that the modern student athlete is vastly different than the student athlete of the 1980's when he started coaching? How does a coach balance staying true to their style/ core values vs adapting to not only fit the athletic ability of his/her players but also adapt their psychology/methods to maximize motivation? I can only speak from my experiences but I can 100% say that I have had to learn to coach players differently. Some you can "MF" pretty hard and they can take it. Others you have to use a little more finesse with or you can lose them pretty quickly. Not everyone person is the same and has the portal, change in assistants, NIL, expectations, etc led to less time being spent on find the right players for Underwood's personality? I have a friend, who is a lifetime coach and who is very successful in the JuCo world, who says "if a kid can play for me then he/she can play for anyone." My friend is a very hard coach to play for but he wins and his players motivation is to transfer to a high level D1 so he gets away with it. I assume that Underwood is a very hard coach to play for but he has also won and so it's been allowed for the most part. Does the evaluation of mental toughness of a player need to be a bigger focus in the recruiting of players to Illinois?

2. How has NIL impacted "coachability"? Players like Shannon and Mayer were well compensated to come to Illinois. What does the psychology of motivating a person who is in the top 5%-10% - 15% of earners in the USA look like compared to a pre-NIL player who wasn't being as well-compensated or compensated at all beyond scholarships? If the "salary" is paid in advance, how much motivation is there to complete the job or to give 100% attention/effort/attitude toward that job? If the salary is paid then how much attention is paid to the finer details of the job?

3. How does the "Me-centric" nature of modern society impact these young student athletes? Human nature is to be selfish or at least partially self-serving. All of these players have hopes/ambitions of playing professional and being paid to play basketball. Do they have to "get theirs" first before the team concept comes into play? I know before NIL, the big idea coaches pushed was "let me help you get to the NBA/Pros". That could possibly be a means to motivate or to tolerate more "old-school" coaching. The "light at the end of the tunnel" was a professional career and money. NIL now provides the money so what becomes the motivation if not intrinsic? I guess getting to the NBA is a motivation but can you use that "dream" for every single player since only the most elite will get drafted.

4. Does the "newness" of the team factor into their reactions to Underwood's style being unsuccessful? I tend to believe that yelling is earned. The player must first "buy what you're selling" and trust you before you can light them up. There are so many new members to this team that I am left to wonder has Underwood "earned the right to yell" in some players eyes? Add in that the returners would not be players that, in my opinion, reacted well to Underwood's style last year and you might lack the trust/culture needed to allow for such "yelling" in public. My examples for returners who did not react well last year would be Coleman at times seemed to pout/overreact to hard coaching. RJ seemed to be one that faded into the background some when he was lit up during a game. Public embarrassment is a massive fear for many people, no matter their age. If hard-coaching/yelling is viewed as that then it might be easy to see how one could check out pretty quickly if the person yelling has not earned the trust of the player.

I apologize for any spelling or grammar errors. I am quickly typing this on my lunch break from work haha.

Go ILLINI!!!!
 
#452      
Underwood very noticeably chilled out starting after the Covid lockdown.

And I might be over-reading this, but I always kinda felt in the years before that there was a calculated element of performance in BU's blow-ups, that he was doing it as a show for the players to provoke a certain reaction. There's an element of genuine exasperation in it all now, never more so than last night.

I don't like it, I wouldn't play for a coach like that, but his ability to bring great performances out of players and teams speaks for itself, we're very lucky to have him and so long as we can keep him I have every confidence that he can learn from what's happened this year and build a new winning group going forward.
Lets go coach speak here. BU has only so many 'chips', trump cards he can play with blow ups. BU is a master on buy in. The players willing to accept the 'blow ups' is directly related to what they agreed upon vision, goals and where they want to be as individuals trusting BU will get them there (also the coaching staff). TRUST is key to being able to push. Lou Holtz suggests 3 questions players ask of there coach. 1) Can I trust you? 2) Are you committed to excellence and 3) Do you care about me? All these are sold in recruiting. I trust our coaching staff to continually have conversations and open dialogue. The Mayer comments may show a crack which I attribute to 5th year and portal threats. LaTulip podcast is spot on with what is occurring in my opinion. The Pain of Losing and Not Changing has to be greater than the Pain to Change. Can the 5th years recognize if they can not operate within a system their upside is limited? How long of losing streak will there be for guys to recognize the selfish play is costing them? BU has proven he can point that out the guys have to look themselves in the mirror and be honest. If they want selfishness then the season is going to be long!!!
 
#453      
Some fans are becoming upset or are unhappy with coach Underwoods screaming and rants. I am okay with that because it shows me me is not happy with what he is seeing and addressing it immediately with purpose. We have had coaches in the past who didn't seem to be bothered by what was going on during the game and sat there and just watched like a zombie. People need to remember I have never seen a coach that praises and talks up his players to anyone who will listen as much as Brad. In fact many on here label it as hyperbole. Brad goes to both ends of the spectrum and that is why most players respond well to him.
See Smith, Lovie.
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#456      
these kids just don't look happy at all, and maybe Rick Pitino did lose his mind in practice, screaming etc, but he didn't do in front of 15,000 fans. This team showed signs of what they are capable of, but something has changed and they're down, it's all over the team's faces
You are aware Ric Pitino had an affair with the wife of his own equipment manager and was involved with an infamous stripper/prostitution ring scandal, correct?
(And that’s just the stuff he officially got caught doing…)

You think a basketball coach yelling in front
of 15k fans is beyond the pale; but being an accused rapist is A-OK?

Where’s the moral outrage for that? As long as you say less then Harpo Marx on the sideline it’s Saul Goodman?


I think I’ll take Brad yelling at people on a treadmill, or in front of 15k in SFC any day of the week.
 
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#457      
Does the modern coach need to be more adaptable in terms of their coaching style in terms of the modern student athlete?... Can we assume that the modern student athlete is vastly different than the student athlete of the 1980's when he started coaching? How does a coach balance staying true to their style/ core values vs adapting to not only fit the athletic ability of his/her players but also adapt their psychology/methods to maximize motivation?

Coach and Players...

First of all, let’s start with the Culture-wide thing. It’s harder to reach young people today in general. Not that it was ever really easy what with the built-in rivalries among the generations. But today it’s harder than ever. There seems to be a wider generation-gap in how one views things (talk to business owners and empolyers about that). That makes it tougher to communicate. Illini Coach is a 20th Century guy working with 21st Century players and mind sets.

Secondly, players have never had more power than they do today. With the Portal and NIL they can pick up and go any time they please and the coach has no sway over that. That makes things very difficult for coaches. Coaches need to win today to keep their fans happy and set up their next contract. But young players are raw talents and many no longer stick around to mature under the same coach. So what is a coach to do? Lose more now and let the young talent mature even when they may leave your program anyway?

Portal Players want to get most of the minutes but they may not in fact deserve them. Do you keep playing the Vets because you want the Street Cred of other future Portal Players to come to you or do you bench them and let the raw talent have growing pains on the court? Not an easy choice.

Third... overall pressures on Coaches. There has never been more money and pressure on Coaches than now. Big Network TV contracts and bigger and bigger Coaching contracts and competition for the best coaches. Pressure, pressure, pressure. Not to mention keeping their own family happy.

Fourth... Coach has to be all things all the time. He has to be Coach. He has to be Teacher. He has to be Disciplinarian. He has to offer the comforting shoulder. He has to be a Media star. He has to think about next year’s roster. He needs to keep the Alums happy. And of course, the fan base as well. This would wear out any person.

The answer? Everyone needs to dial back the pressure and expectations and remember that all of them have the same goal – TO WIN GAMES. Winning games is the answer to every problem. Get into that ‘Flow State’ that I described in another post and stay there. Do a better job of talking to each other and not just at each other. Do a better job of listening – both ways – Coach to Player and Player and Player to Coach.

In short... everyone be a Professional. Treat each other with respect. Dedicate yourself to the tasks at hand. Don’t get too high or too low. And ENJOY PLAYING THE GAME. It’s still a game of throwing a ball through a hoop... not solving World hunger or curing a disease.

Remember the Joys of this Game and not just the off-court challenges.
 
#459      
I am also a high school educator and I can say without hesitation that the modern student is vastly different than when I started coaching/teaching about 15 years ago. The term I use is that the modern student/athlete is a lot more brittle.
Yes. A recent study showed that young American adults are apt to view ordinary daily activities as threatening. They are used to being coddled and protected from danger.
 
#460      

IlliniKat91

Chicago, IL
Yes. A recent study showed that young American adults are apt to view ordinary daily activities as threatening. They are used to being coddled and protected from danger.
As a high school educator, this also bothers me. However, we as the older generation only have ourselves to blame. By not allowing children and teens to experience discomfort and failure, we destroy any chance of them building a more resilient mindset.

Sometimes, it's not just okay to say no to kids. It's essential.
 
#462      
Yes. A recent study showed that young American adults are apt to view ordinary daily activities as threatening. They are used to being coddled and protected from danger.
Perhaps BU, during time outs, should just TEXT IN ALL CAPITALS in a group thread to the team /s. I love BU and his style. It is what I know coaches to be. Hope he never changes. I hope I never have to read another thread about our coach being too tough on the players.
 
#463      
Having some time to process things since the Northwestern game, here are my thoughts...
1) Brad is a good coach. He has a style and he gets angry and yells. Others have already stated the players already knew this coming into the season. He's also been willing to make mid-season adjustments in the past, and I think he'll make those adjustments now. I think he tried something things he thought could work and they aren't so he'll adjust.
2) How quickly we forget we lost almost our entire team from a year ago. And we're super young. It takes time to get chemistry down not only for the players but the coaching staff. The UCLA and Texas wins as well as almost getting Virginia just magnify our recent struggles. We were all thinking National Title and now everyone is toeing the cliff. Relax and let the season play out. Some adjustments, some gut checks, and getting Goode back might lead us to a Sweet 16 or better.
3) I can go both ways with the yelling. Some players respond to that. I did as a player. Some don't. But we're talking about a D1 power conference and you're kidding yourself if you don't think other coaches (and a lot of them) don't yell like that - the nicest sounding ones on TV are screaming in practice I guarantee it. And back to point 1, all of these players knew Underwood can explode coming into the season.
4) We're clearing lacking first and foremost a leader - maybe the most important point here. I really am not upset with Shannon. I think he's playing hard. Someone commented on how he's more of a Robin than Batman and I think that's accurate. He's a little more quiet. But I'm not happy seeing Mayer dance on the sideline and not be engaged and agree with the assessment that the ball stops with him every time he touches it and he get lax on D. Those are the things that frustrate me as a fan. We have a lot of freshmen that play - tough to be a leader, three transfers, and a handful of guys with limited experience. See next point.
5) Maybe leadership is on the way. I think Luke Goode could turn this whole thing around.
6) We aren't tough enough yet. Other teams out hustle us, dive more, get more physical, box out, etc. This with leadership are the two glaring things that are leading to the losses. Yes, our offense is bad, but you can hide bad offense with leadership and hustle/toughness. Not that I'm OK with bad offense, but the offense can be fixed/change. You must have leadership and toughness/hustle.
7) I'm OK with us shooting 3s but only when they are wiiiiiiiiiiiiiide open right at the arc, later in the shot clock, or if someone penetrates the lane and kicks out. That's the only time we should be shooting them now. No more long launches, quick launches or around the perimeter launches.
8) We NEED to move off the ball. It's been a bit better the last two games. But I despise everyone standing around the arc. Simple back cuts, back screens with the ball moving, and ball screen and rolls can lead to lay-ins with the talent we have.
9) If I were the coach, I'm not ready to rag on Underwood b/c he's completely turned our program around and I'm so thankful for that. But on Saturday, I'd start the 5 guys playing the hardest and it would be Epps, Harris, Shannon, Rogers, and Dain. Send the message to the team that the guys who work hard will start and play. I really mean this. We'll find out who's in and who's out. And if they are out we don't want them anyway. The future is so bright with Epps, Harris, Rogers, Goode, possibly RJ, Dain, Hansberry coming in, Johnson coming in, maybe Perin. Don't waste time with Prima donna guys who only care about themselves.
10) I think it is very possible this season is salvageable. Luke Goode will help/must help. Our younger guys are getting a lot of tick (Rogers should be getting more right now the way certain players are playing). Dain has been an extremely pleasant surprise, not just statistically, but boy was he running the floor on both offense and defense against Northwestern. I was extremely impressed. We NEED a player leader, we NEED to get tougher, and we need to make a few adjustments to our offense and defense. Remember, this team hasn't been together long at all and it's very young. Focus on the positive things that won us games against UCLA and Texas and almost got us a win against Virginia. Start starting and playing the guys playing the hardest and tweak the offense and defense. And I guess cross our fingers that Luke is our leader b/c leadership tends to be more a natural thing, it can't be forced, and Luke is the only guy that I've seen demonstrate that of the current players we have on the roster (he did it last year as a freshman). Luke is the biggest part of this equation. This team is really good. A good leader will bring out the toughness/hustle. A good leader will communicate with the coach as far as what is working and what isn't schematically. Don't jump off the deep end just yet. But also, let's not throw this staff under the bus unless they have major screw ups for multiple years b/c I'm not sure any of us would've thought the program would be expecting Final Fours this quickly and beating the likes of 8. UCLA 2. Texas and almost getting 5. Virginia to start off a season. Go Illini!!! The talent is there. It's about putting the pieces together. Either way the future is very very bright!
Glad to see some reasoned thought starting to surface in these threads.
 
#465      
Perhaps BU, during time outs, should just TEXT IN ALL CAPITALS in a group thread to the team /s. I love BU and his style. It is what I know coaches to be. Hope he never changes. I hope I never have to read another thread about our coach being too tough on the players.
I know that if my boss started to crazily yell at me at work because I made a mistake, in public no less, that I'd be looking for a new job that same day because I don't want to work in a toxic work environment.
If I went to a local business and I saw a manager screaming at the employees I don't think I'd want to go back.
Why sports coach seems to be the only job where it is ok to scream at people underneath you as a part of your job duties I don't know.

I don't think BU would like it very much if JW or the University President went courtside and starting screaming at him during the game. Of course BU has leverage (money) that prevents that from happening. The sarcastic retort of course is just that JW is "motivating" BU by "pointing out his mistakes", so of course it's not an unhinged rant. JW is being helpful in that hypothetical so there'd be no reason for BU to be upset. /s
 
#466      
I know that if my boss started to crazily yell at me at work because I made a mistake, in public no less, that I'd be looking for a new job that same day because I don't want to work in a toxic work environment.
If I went to a local business and I saw a manager screaming at the employees I don't think I'd want to go back.
Why sports coach seems to be the only job where it is ok to scream at people underneath you as a part of your job duties I don't know.

I don't think BU would like it very much if JW or the University President went courtside and starting screaming at him during the game. Of course BU has leverage (money) that prevents that from happening. The sarcastic retort of course is just that JW is "motivating" BU by "pointing out his mistakes", so of course it's not an unhinged rant. JW is being helpful in that hypothetical so there'd be no reason for BU to be upset. /s
OMG! Just go find a safe place already.😉
 
#467      

Ransom Stoddard

Ordained Dudeist Priest
Bloomington, IL
I know that if my boss started to crazily yell at me at work because I made a mistake, in public no less, that I'd be looking for a new job that same day because I don't want to work in a toxic work environment.
If I went to a local business and I saw a manager screaming at the employees I don't think I'd want to go back.
Why sports coach seems to be the only job where it is ok to scream at people underneath you as a part of your job duties I don't know.

I don't think BU would like it very much if JW or the University President went courtside and starting screaming at him during the game. Of course BU has leverage (money) that prevents that from happening. The sarcastic retort of course is just that JW is "motivating" BU by "pointing out his mistakes", so of course it's not an unhinged rant. JW is being helpful in that hypothetical so there'd be no reason for BU to be upset. /s
Tell me you never played a team sport without telling me you never played a team sport.
 
#469      

IlliniMike_Aurora

Straight outta Champaign
You are aware Ric Pitino had an affair with the wife of his own equipment manager and was involved with an infamous stripper/prostitution ring scandal, correct?
(And that’s just the stuff he officially got caught doing…)

You think a basketball coach yelling in front
of 15k fans is beyond the pale; but being an accused rapist is A-OK?

Where’s the moral outrage for that? As long as you say less then Harpo Marx on the sideline it’s Saul Goodman?


I think I’ll take Brad yelling at people on a treadmill, or in front of 15k in SFC any day of the week.
Good angle to read for me as Brads been on my nerves a bit , The lesser of two evils perhaps ? Josh’s next hire- whenever in future- will land in the middle
 
#470      
If Mayer is unavailable, then Goode could be a solid replacement for him. To me, Goode will be more consistent game to game, play better defensive and have a great attitude. In the time being, RM can forget the past, look to the next game and play his heart out. Confidence will ensue and who knows what could happen from here on?
 
#471      
Yes. A recent study showed that young American adults are apt to view ordinary daily activities as threatening. They are used to being coddled and protected from danger.
I don’t know that being coddled and protected from danger is always it. Sometimes it’s just the ability to tolerate total a-holes.
 
#472      
If your coach is a regular yeller, getting yelled at isn't a particularly big deal. It is just his method of communicating. Players become accustomed to it. The issue is that, if the coach is really pi$$ed or if he is trying to shock the players into focus, then he has to scream like a maniac to make sure you understand how serious he is. Think this is why BU sometimes looks a little unhinged to the casual observer.
 
#473      
If your coach is a regular yeller, getting yelled at isn't a particularly big deal. It is just his method of communicating. Players become accustomed to it. The issue is that, if the coach is really pi$$ed or if he is trying to shock the players into focus, then he has to scream like a maniac to make sure you understand how serious he is. Think this is why BU sometimes looks a little unhinged to the casual observer.
How scared would you be if Brad, red in the face, eyes flashing, said something in a normal level voice without swearing? I'd be checking my life insurance.
 
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