Ohio State 72, Illinois 60 Postgame

Status
Not open for further replies.
#351      

Rudd21

R
Rudd21
dbeverly26 said:
If you want to show what he can do with 'good wing talent' you really shouldn't count '18 and '19, because he had no good wing talent in those years. There's not a system in the world that could've turned his first roster here into a winner. But honestly, I also don't know why people act like Underwood hasn't had success as a coach. He's won games at every stop, and a lot of them.
Click to expand...

I agree with 2018. But 2019 he had Ayo, Frazier, Feliz, Griffin. That’s plenty of wing talent. Still only went 7-13. He had NBA PG at OSU and went 9-9. This year 11-9 with 3 NBA hopefuls. Underwood inherited a great program at SFA. Kudos to him for keeping it going but it’s like Self taking over at Kansas.

Underwood’s huge major D1 success is due to one player. Without Kofi, he’s proven to be just a guy. And this year has really proven it when some consider Illinois to have the most talent in the Big 10 and yet finish probably 11-9 with quite a few inexplicable blowouts
 
#352      

dbeverly26

dbeverly26
dbeverly26
Rudd21 said:
I agree with 2018. But 2019 he had Ayo, Frazier, Feliz, Griffin. That’s plenty of wing talent. Still only went 7-13. He had NBA PG at OSU and went 9-9. This year 11-9 with 3 NBA hopefuls. Underwood inherited a great program at SFA. Kudos to him for keeping it going but it’s like Self taking over at Kansas.

Underwood’s huge major D1 success is due to one player. Without Kofi, he’s proven to be just a guy. And this year has really proven it when some consider Illinois to have the most talent in the Big 10 and yet finish probably 11-9 with quite a few inexplicable blowouts
Click to expand...
Two freshmen, a sophmore, and Andres Feliz? The same Alan Griffin who is currently representing the Newfoundland Growlers? Screams "Big Ten contender" to me.

Take the three best years away from any coach and see how many are 'just guys.' This is just silly. Keep howling about how bad Underwood is and you'll wind up with a new coach who you'll be howling about in no time flat.
 
#353      

FreshlySqueezed

FreshlySqueezed
FreshlySqueezed
Rudd21 said:
I agree with 2018. But 2019 he had Ayo, Frazier, Feliz, Griffin. That’s plenty of wing talent. Still only went 7-13. He had NBA PG at OSU and went 9-9. This year 11-9 with 3 NBA hopefuls. Underwood inherited a great program at SFA. Kudos to him for keeping it going but it’s like Self taking over at Kansas.

Underwood’s huge major D1 success is due to one player. Without Kofi, he’s proven to be just a guy. And this year has really proven it when some consider Illinois to have the most talent in the Big 10 and yet finish probably 11-9 with quite a few inexplicable blowouts
Click to expand...

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say there aren't many coaches in college basketball who win consistently at a very high level without elite talent.

Like another poster said, when he had an NBA level point guard, he finished 22nd in KenPom with the #1 offense and #1 SOS in the country. The 9-9 conference record you keep using as an indictment of BU included 7 of those 9 losses to teams ranked 6, 6, 7, 13, 13, 17, and 17 per KenPom.
 
#354      

Illiniaaron

I
Geneseo, IL
Illiniaaron
adogster said:
I do. I always bet the opponent. If we win the game, I'm happy. If we lose the game it must mean I cashed in... not a total loss.
Click to expand...
1677531740231.png
 
#355      

STATS GUY

S
STATS GUY
I read with interest all the comments about us being terrible 3 point shooters. My take as former coach is the offense not the shooting. We have shooters - Mayer, TSJ, RJ, Goode and Epps (still not convinced on Harris with his form yet someone is going to tell me his % is good). Who do you want to shoot and how best to put them in a position to excel? What did Damonte shoot the year he was off the charts?

I want an offense that can score at all 3 levels. I am looking for 3s as a result of penetration where you force a guy into helping off the ball. I want a Mayer type that can slip a ball screen and have a shorter man forced to guard him. I do not like pass a few times and then CH shooting from a distance where he feels comfortable not getting blocked and/or a step back 3 which is not something you can live on.

The spread while providing opportunity at times does not really play to a conventional 4 out 1 in mindset. Everyone floods one side of the floor and you live or die with one guy down hill and relying on speed. I always would like to see defense rotations to the ball and leaving an outside shooter open for time to set and shoot. In the spread, the rotation may come yet there is no where to pass the ball. as everyone is on the strong side to big with and penetration is the other side.

Rules

1) Force the Defense to make a decision and rotate.
2) Reverse the basketball thru back screens and screen the screener action (my favorite or is that Micheal Jordan's favorite, I guess it does not matter). The more times the ball is reversed and defense has to rotate the higher probability of an open 3 or lanes to penetrate.
3) Make helpside be helpside. ( We got this with Kofi so that is not always there)
4) High/Low works to force someone opposite side of ball to help as well.

Currently, we look to get downhill at the risk of nothing else available. Indiana system has multiple options when JHS penetrates.

Let's be honest though, BU has been at this longer than any of us at this level. I do not want to go back to the days of Weber as our talent level is so much better. We have lost at least 3 players in 2 years whose number will hang in the rafters. We have been blessed and thank you BU. They want to succeed most likely more than we do. I trust where we are and would not want to be faced with replacing the numbers we had to replace. Then in mid season having to adjust. I think we all underestimate how much time it takes to create unity and keep it intact. A game here or there is doable. We only have one basketball and guys trying to get to the next level and a paycheck beyond NIL. This is not an easy task. BU and company can recruit and will put a great product in place. Our future is bright and very few teams will ever be '05 or '89. Let's live and die with our group. If it was easy, then anyone could do it. ILL
 
#356      

IlliniCub 16

IlliniCub 16
IlliniCub 16
FreshlySqueezed said:
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say there aren't many coaches in college basketball who win consistently at a very high level without elite talent.

Like another poster said, when he had an NBA level point guard, he finished 22nd in KenPom with the #1 offense and #1 SOS in the country. The 9-9 conference record you keep using as an indictment of BU included 7 of those 9 losses to teams ranked 6, 6, 7, 13, 13, 17, and 17 per KenPom.
Click to expand...

I see Jawun Evans referred to as an NBA level point guard often. He was a great college player but still, we aren't talking about Chris Paul here. He played 56 career NBA games for a reason so it's not like he was some kind of can't miss superstar that anyone would dominate the Big 12 with.
 
#357      

Southern Illinois Boy

S
Southern Illinois Boy
Rudd21 said:
But I’d argue nearly all that prior success is mainly due to one anomaly, once in a generation type player: Kofi Cockburn.

IL Conference record with Kofi: 44–16 (73.3%)

Let’s look at Underwood’s conference records without Kofi and the talent he had.

2016-17 Ok State (9-9). NBA picks: Jawun Evans

2017-18 Illinois (4-14) NBA picks: 0
2018-19 Illinois (7-13) NBA picks: Ayo
2022-23 Illinois (11-9) NBA picks: Shannon, Mayer, Hawkins (possibly)

Total: 31-45

With Kofi: 44-16
Without Kofi: 31-45

Clearly Underwood is an elite coach when he has the best big man in the country. But if he doesn’t have that guy (and there just aren’t many guys like that ever to recruit), and he simply has to rely on good wing talent and his system, he’s proven to be an average at best coach. Average is better than Groce, but a level that got Weber fired in his latter years. This is Underwood’s 6th season, if a season like this year is the norm going forward (not terrible, not great, new roster every year) I don’t think most will be happy with that.

I think the main problem this year is it doesn’t feel like anything is being built up again for the immediate future. It’s a team built for this year, then next year whole new team.
Click to expand...
Are you seriously Making a comparison using the roster he inherited and had from 2017-2018 and 2018-2019 to the pieces he put together for the next three years?
 
#358      

Southern Illinois Boy

S
Southern Illinois Boy
Rudd21 said:
I agree with 2018. But 2019 he had Ayo, Frazier, Feliz, Griffin. That’s plenty of wing talent. Still only went 7-13. He had NBA PG at OSU and went 9-9. This year 11-9 with 3 NBA hopefuls. Underwood inherited a great program at SFA. Kudos to him for keeping it going but it’s like Self taking over at Kansas.

Underwood’s huge major D1 success is due to one player. Without Kofi, he’s proven to be just a guy. And this year has really proven it when some consider Illinois to have the most talent in the Big 10 and yet finish probably 11-9 with quite a few inexplicable blowouts
Click to expand...
Funny! So does that mean Self can't coach either?
 
#359      

OnlyOrange

O
Belleville, IL
OnlyOrange
Rudd21 said:
Clearly Underwood is an elite coach when he has the best big man in the country. But if he doesn’t have that guy (and there just aren’t many guys like that ever to recruit), and he simply has to rely on good wing talent and his system, he’s proven to be an average at best coach. Average is better than Groce, but a level that got Weber fired in his latter years. This is Underwood’s 6th season, if a season like this year is the norm going forward (not terrible, not great, new roster every year) I don’t think most will be happy with that.

I think the main problem this year is it doesn’t feel like anything is being built up again for the immediate future. It’s a team built for this year, then next year whole new team.
Click to expand...
This, right here, is my concern. It's not a "rebuilding" year. Who is going to score next year given what we have returning? There's not much.
 
#360      

BBIQ

B
Texas
BBIQ
CleverHandle1 said:
I do think it's about sensitivity. I believe Mayer took offense to BU's style. As a result, BU lightened up a bit. Shannon and Epps refused to go into games.

Who's running the show? If Mayer was more like Trent, I think Illinois isn't chucking ridiculous three pointers, players aren't refusing to go into games and we aren't complaining about this "Heckyll and Jyde team.
Click to expand...
Is that for real? Epps refused to go into a game? Do we need to worry about him leaving now?
 
#361      

Rudd21

R
Rudd21
dbeverly26 said:
Two freshmen, a sophmore, and Andres Feliz? The same Alan Griffin who is currently representing the Newfoundland Growlers? Screams "Big Ten contender" to me.

Take the three best years away from any coach and see how many are 'just guys.' This is just silly. Keep howling about how bad Underwood is and you'll wind up with a new coach who you'll be howling about in no time flat.
Click to expand...

Losing 20+ games with Ayo/Frazier as the starting backcourt, and a high major starter in Griffin (who started at Syracuse after her left) and a Giorgi who had a very good freshmen year was underachieving IMO. The defense he had them play that year was terrible.

You don’t have to expect to win the Big 10 with those guys, but a good coach doesn’t lose 20+ games with that group either. What changed with that roster from year to year? Kofi Cockburn.

And I never argued Underwood was bad. I said he’s average at best without Kofi Cockburn on the roster. And the year prior to Kofi getting here, and this year bears that out. Unless you think going 7-13 or 11-9 are better than average? I don’t
 
#362      

FreshlySqueezed

FreshlySqueezed
FreshlySqueezed
Rudd21 said:
Losing 20+ games with Ayo/Frazier as the starting backcourt, and a high major starter in Griffin (who started at Syracuse after her left) and a Giorgi who had a very good freshmen year was underachieving IMO. The defense he had them play that year was terrible.

You don’t have to expect to win the Big 10 with those guys, but a good coach doesn’t lose 20+ games with that group either. What changed with that roster from year to year? Kofi Cockburn.

And I never argued Underwood was bad. I said he’s average at best without Kofi Cockburn on the roster. And the year prior to Kofi getting here, and this year bears that out. Unless you think going 7-13 or 11-9 are better than average? I don’t
Click to expand...

This... isn't even worth arguing with.

Excuse Me What GIF by Bounce
 
#363      

DeeAndDWill

DeeAndDWill
DeeAndDWill
JMoser16 said:
We went from John Groce mediocrity to Top 5 in the Polls. What would you call that? Weber hadn’t gotten us to Top 5 ranking since 05-06. In a vacuum your reply is true, but you can’t cherry pick like that and expect to be taken seriously in these threads.

Btw pretty tough to get a 1 seed in March and Chattanooga was a 12 seed, at least get the seeds right before you try to sound like an expert
Click to expand...
I have a higher expectation for Illinois basketball than "better than John Groce". However, If that is your bar, then by all means 1 more NCAA win than John Groce is damn near a miracle I suppose.
 
#364      

WyattEarp

WyattEarp
WyattEarp
Southern Illinois Boy said:
Funny! So does that mean Self can't coach either?
Click to expand...
It’s hilarious to me that there are still people that think Self can’t coach. Some of ‘em on this board.

There’s another coach I was actually thinking of…

For a good long time, Scott Drew got the: “He, can’t coach” tag put on him until he finally broke through. It wasnt just fans either…it was a lot of BIG 12 coaches saying it.

I’ve read some of the other coaches were put off by some of the “churchy stuff…”he came off a bit sanctimonious and hypocritical…(Similar to Wooden) (No I am not anti-religion)
Supposedly that rubbed some the wrong way…and then some of his peers felt he
engaged in shady recruiting practices on top of it…

Later on…there might have been some jealousy involved. (But I dunno? That’s just my speculation.)

It DID take him a long time to have a break through…but he stayed the course and did it at Baylor…which in a way, makes it even more remarkable than what
Self has been able to engineer at Kansas.

My point is, it can undoubtedly take quite a while sometimes. And there’s gonna be some missteps and bad luck along the way.

But, if Brad starts getting to the Elite 8/Final Four a time or two…he’s gonna shut a lot of people up. Then his $tock goes ever higher…

Speaking of stock, too much of it is put into a single elimination tourney…But…right or wrong that’s the way it is.
 
Last edited:
#365      

IlliniCub 16

IlliniCub 16
IlliniCub 16
Rudd21 said:
Losing 20+ games with Ayo/Frazier as the starting backcourt, and a high major starter in Griffin (who started at Syracuse after her left) and a Giorgi who had a very good freshmen year was underachieving IMO. The defense he had them play that year was terrible.

You don’t have to expect to win the Big 10 with those guys, but a good coach doesn’t lose 20+ games with that group either. What changed with that roster from year to year? Kofi Cockburn.

And I never argued Underwood was bad. I said he’s average at best without Kofi Cockburn on the roster. And the year prior to Kofi getting here, and this year bears that out. Unless you think going 7-13 or 11-9 are better than average? I don’t
Click to expand...

In the 18-19 season you are referencing, all three of the players in bold above were freshman. That was a very young team that also had few upperclassmen who knew how to win. Kipper, had been an inconsistent player on losing teams, Aaron Jordan, who had not played much on losing teams his first three years, Adonis De La Rosa coming off an ACL tear, and Feliz, who became a great player but was coming from JUCO competition. That's it for upperclassman scholarship players. John Wooden isn't winning more that 16 games with that roster.

And to call Griffin a high level starter at that point is disingenuous, he was not a high level recruit ready to start right away as a freshman, he didn't develop into a college starter until his junior year.
 
#367      

dbeverly26

dbeverly26
dbeverly26
Rudd21 said:
And I never argued Underwood was bad. I said he’s average at best without Kofi Cockburn on the roster. And the year prior to Kofi getting here, and this year bears that out. Unless you think going 7-13 or 11-9 are better than average? I don’t
Click to expand...
I'd say that I'd like to know what your expectations of an average coach are given that 11-9 against this year's Big Ten puts you in the top 30-40 range, but I'm honestly not interested. This isn't where we want to be, but it's also clearly not the ceiling for Underwood or this program. It looks a lot more like the floor now that he's established himself.
 
#368      

pruman91

pruman91
Paducah, Ky
pruman91
WyattEarp said:
It’s hilarious to me that there are still people that think Self can’t coach. Some of ‘em on this board.

There’s another coach I was actually thinking of…

For a good long time, Scott Drew got the: “He, can’t coach” tag put on him until he finally broke through. It wasnt just fans either…it was a lot of BIG 12 coaches saying it.

I’ve read some of the other coaches were put off by some of the “churchy stuff…”he came off a bit sanctimonious and hypocritical…(Similar to Wooden) (No I am not anti-religion)
Supposedly that rubbed some the wrong way…and then some of his peers felt he
engaged in shady recruiting practices on top of it…

Later on…there might have been some jealousy involved. (But I dunno? That’s just my speculation.)

It DID take him a long time to have a break through…but he stayed the course and did it at Baylor…which makes it even more remarkable than Self IMO.

My point is, it can undoubtedly take quite a while sometimes. And there’s gonna be some missteps and bad luck along the way.

But, if Brad starts getting to the Elite 8/Final Four a time or two…he’s gonna shut a lot of people up. Then his $tock goes ever higher…

Speaking of stock, too much of it is put into a single elimination tourney…But…right or wrong that’s the way it is.
Click to expand...
7ab.gif
 
#369      

pruman91

pruman91
Paducah, Ky
pruman91
dbeverly26 said:
I'd say that I'd like to know what your expectations of an average coach are given that 11-9 against this year's Big Ten puts you in the top 30-40 range, but I'm honestly not interested. This isn't where we want to be, but it's also clearly not the ceiling for Underwood or this program. It looks a lot more like the floor now that he's established himself.
Click to expand...
comparing BU's first 5 years at UI compared to MK at puke shows......................

MK.........................85-65

BU...........................94-66

Both coached records in P5 conferences....


I am not prescribing a similar future at all , but the record's above speaks volumes to me.........It takes time to lay your own coaching foundation and not being a fan of puke , I would surmise that K had many games that were disappointing in those first 5 years.....

I AM saying that the Illini program has been renewed with BU becoming the HC and the recruiting level HAS been uplifted and the Illini have regained a footing in the higher levels of college BB...........

I hope BU stays for the rest of his coaching career ( barring a demise of performance or illegal actions committed) and we as fans reap the rewards that we all want and desire.......another JUS ME HUMBLE OPINES.......

Walken-2-150x150.jpg


I'm pruman91 and I approve this message ........I really really do.......think 2024......2024......2024......see you at the polls !
 
#370      

Retro62

Retro62
North Bethesda, Maryland
Retro62
Rudd21 said:
But I’d argue nearly all that prior success is mainly due to one anomaly, once in a generation type player: Kofi Cockburn.

IL Conference record with Kofi: 44–16 (73.3%)

Let’s look at Underwood’s conference records without Kofi and the talent he had.

2016-17 Ok State (9-9). NBA picks: Jawun Evans

2017-18 Illinois (4-14) NBA picks: 0
2018-19 Illinois (7-13) NBA picks: Ayo
2022-23 Illinois (11-9) NBA picks: Shannon, Mayer, Hawkins (possibly)

Total: 31-45

With Kofi: 44-16
Without Kofi: 31-45

Clearly Underwood is an elite coach when he has the best big man in the country. But if he doesn’t have that guy (and there just aren’t many guys like that ever to recruit), and he simply has to rely on good wing talent and his system, he’s proven to be an average at best coach. Average is better than Groce, but a level that got Weber fired in his latter years. This is Underwood’s 6th season, if a season like this year is the norm going forward (not terrible, not great, new roster every year) I don’t think most will be happy with that.

I think the main problem this year is it doesn’t feel like anything is being built up again for the immediate future. It’s a team built for this year, then next year whole new team.
Click to expand...
You make some good points, but we won’t have a completely new team next year…unless you think everyone is going to transfer out? We have six guys who have contributed who will hopefully still be here…seven if you count Lieb. True, we are going to need help via the portal, but I see us having a pretty solid base with what we have left from this season. Yes, I realize it’s probably unrealistic to think everyone will stay…but I sincerely hope they do.
 
#374      

bluemountain

B
bluemountain
pruman91 said:
comparing BU's first 5 years at UI compared to MK at puke shows......................

MK.........................85-65

BU...........................94-66

Both coached records in P5 conferences....


I am not prescribing a similar future at all , but the record's above speaks volumes to me.........It takes time to lay your own coaching foundation and not being a fan of puke , I would surmise that K had many games that were disappointing in those first 5 years.....

I AM saying that the Illini program has been renewed with BU becoming the HC and the recruiting level HAS been uplifted and the Illini have regained a footing in the higher levels of college BB...........

I hope BU stays for the rest of his coaching career ( barring a demise of performance or illegal actions committed) and we as fans reap the rewards that we all want and desire.......another JUS ME HUMBLE OPINES.......

View attachment 23735

I'm pruman91 and I approve this message ........I really really do.......think 2024......2024......2024......see you at the polls !
Click to expand...
In year 6 under K, Duke went 37-3 and was the NCAA runner-up. I'm hopeful we get there this year, but don't think it's likely
 
Status
Not open for further replies.