I guess we have extremely different opinions on the definition of generational player. You're talking only in the context of Illinois basketball, and you used a single metric (multi-year consensus AA) to determine this?
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Ohio State 72, Illinois 60 Postgame
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I guess we have extremely different opinions on the definition of generational player. You're talking only in the context of Illinois basketball, and you used a single metric (multi-year consensus AA) to determine this?
sacraig
- The desert
Also, can we not claim that the needle is pointing downward? If this is a down year for us, I am okay with that because that means a down year is flirting with the top 25 all season, making the tournament, and finishing in the top half of the conference.
This is what a down year for Illinois should look like.
BU is not just the coach he is also the GM of the team. He is in charge of scouting, recruiting, tactics, game-planning, in-game management, training regimen, and more. You picked X's and O's as your trait. I don't know enough to know how BU rates against his peers in this trait, but I do assume that you'd be taken to task by some for saying that BU was average or below average relative to his peers on just about any individual trait of importance. Even if you caveat that in totality everything is good.
How did Frank Williams and Brian cook win big ten player of the year and not make 2nd team all American? Also ray woods must have been a balla.
Another way to look at it would be to say Brad went 11-9 after losing his top 5 and 6 of his top 7 scorers from the previous season.
You said Holtmann was better. How is OSU doing this year after turning over a big portion of their roster and not having a "generational talent"?
RabidDawgClassic
- Los Angeles, CA
I’ve been an Illinois fan since 1982. I’d say I’ve never seen a player quite like Kofi in my time. Not that there haven’t been better scorers or more talented players, but for his position and what he was able to accomplish, he’s a unicorn for my generation, at least.
That's exactly what I said in my original reply. He was a phenomenal college player and unique in his sheer size and strength.
Is he a generational talent? I think of LeBron, Jordan, etc. Calling him a generational talent without first any providing any context at all (ie, limited to Illinois players, for instance) is disingenuous and really just absurd.
I don't want to get into an argument over what 'average' means here, but if you're saying that this is more or less what Underwood will give us every year (except for years where he recruits top-caliber talent, which clearly don't count for reasons), I'm just gonna disagree.
I said arguably better in terms of X's and O's. And BU brought in 2 experienced NBA prospects from the portal.
Come on, you know what I meant. but to spell it out, he is the most impactful UI player in my lifetime - more so than DW, Dee, Harper, Norman, Gill, etc
I knew what you meant? Your original statement was that he was a 'generational talent' and now you've backpedaled all of the way to "most impactful University of Illinois player in my lifetime" and we can agree to disagree that he was more impactful than Deron Williams or Dee Brown to the success of our program.
I can’t help but have this lingering in the back of my head.
Battle89
- Cary-Grove, the better Trojan team
Choosing my words carefully here, as I agreed with @NarrowJ in terms of Brad's coaching ability - Brad did not need Kofi to validate that he was a good coach.
However I interpreted @bluemountain 's 'generational talent' exactly as he later clarified it, most impactful Illinois player in my lifetime. And I tend to agree. The 89 team was stronger, and the 05 guard trio was stronger (and had three AAs as well, to continue my metric), but one single player might be Kofi.
TL; DR: I don't necessarily agree with blue's original premise, but I don't think he or she is backpedaling now. Agree we are defining generation differently @NarrowJ .
To me, it is the difference between saying "BU can't win without Kofi Cockburn" and "BU can't win without [insert NBA Hall-of-Famer]"... which neither statement is true as was pointed out. So, maybe it wasn't disingenuous. I am happy to give the benefit of doubt. But it's still incorrect, either way, so the definition of 'generational talent' is really moot here.
See a doctor and get rid of it.
Holtmann hasn't won more than 12 Big Ten games in any season since his first season there when he took over Thad's roster. What about Holtmann's resume suggests he is a better X's and O's coach than BU?
We will see....he hasn't done it yet at the P5 level - he's a .500 coach in conference play w/out Kofi, albeit with a small sample size. I would love to be wrong btw
Well you can't just completely disregard a coach's best 3 years when evaluating them. That's plain silly to refuse to give him credit for those seasons. Did he not bring Kofi in and coach him? Kofi wasn't even a 5 star recruit.
This is year 1 post-Kofi. Forget pre-Kofi. We all know what he inherited (and what he's turned it into, no less). He is 19-10 post-Kofi for a .655 winning percentage and 10-7 in conference for a .588 winning percentage. Did you think we'd improve our record this year losing Kofi and a bunch of 5th year guys?
I don’t think many that get paid to cover basketball said that at all.
Jeremy Werner picked Illinois to finish 2nd in the Big 10. The AP had Illinois at preseason #23. And it’s because there was a lot of perceived talent on the team. 3 upperclassmen on NBA draft boards (Hawkins, Shannon, Mayer). 3 top 75 freshmen (Clark, Epps, Rodgers). 2 Sophs expected to make leaps (Melendez, and Goode).
Despite that talent, they’ve had the following games they’ve trailed by as many as:
18 vs Penn State
35 vs Mizzou
13 at Northwestern
21 vs Indiana
17 at Penn State
18 vs Northwestern
15 at Ohio State
None of those teams have as much talent as Illinois. Mizzou was a team put together with mostly transfers with a first year coach. Ohio State is bad. Penn State probably misses the tourney. Northwestern is a solid team but certainly not more talented than Illinois. The only loss in this group that is forgivable loss is Indiana. When you have games you get behind that much, with superior talent, that’s a coaching issue IMO. If it was just 1 game, that happens. This has been going on all season. So 11-9 with a big talent advantage isn’t a good precursor to the future IMO when that talent advantage may not be there.
LOL now we're going through and cherry picking the absolute low point of every single disappointing loss on the schedule and using that as a barometer to evaluate the job he's done? Forget about all the wins, conf championships, etcetera. Geez, get right out town...
I never said Holtmann was better. You are confusing me with another poster. Holtmann is probably going to get fired.
We’re 10-8 in the conference. That’s a .555 winning percentage. Most likely finishing 11-9 which makes a 0.550 winning percentage. And that is with playing the easiest possible in conference schedule having played the bottom teams the max number of times.
Underwood should get great credit for recruiting and developing a generational big man like Kofi. But the issue with that is whether it’s replicable in the future. Talented wings and guards are a dime a dozen. Underwood has brought in plenty of those guys. But without the big man, his major conference success has been middling despite having good wing/guard talent.
My bad on the conf record. Not sure where I pulled that from. Thanks for the correction. Doesn't change much imo. It's one more loss in a conference that has 80 percent of its teams fighting for spots 2 thru 12.
I am not using his 1st two years here against him like many do. That's my choice. Rather, I appreciate what he's turned the program into since those seasons. We've underperformed this year and that does not make him a sub-par coach. That's just my opinion.
I reject the premise of grading BU on his non-Kofi performance, as though the Kofi years didn't count. Kofi playing at the U of I wasn't an accident. It wasn't as though Kofi was a can't miss prospect. He was a borderline top 50 prep player. A very good prospect, but a significant project. Most scouts that saw him play were there for Cole Anthony. Kofi was largely an afterthought. BU & Co went to NY to recruit him specifically. They sold him on U of I, how he would be utilized, and he committed very quickly.
BU has been tremendous at identifying talent. We missed on quite few big men early in his tenure, but he was always chasing the right guys. Think about some of the misses...
Flo Thamba
Oscar T.
Timme
Kalkbrenner
Castleton
We are consistently barking up the right trees. Occasionally, it pays off.
If you are going to count his first two seasons against him, seasons where he had maybe 3-5 B1G caliber players on the roster and was desperate to find anyone taller than him to play for us, you need to count the seasons where his plan came together too.
Anyone pretending Freshman Ayo was an NBA guy has a warped sense of history. There were MANY people on this board, even halfway through his Soph year that were saying "This guy was supposed to be an NBA prospect? I'm not seeing it..." The backcourt of Frazier and Dosunmu didn't have anyone shaking in their boots. (Sophomore Dos was a All-B1G honorable mention, so considered maybe the 4th best SG in the league) We all see him through the lens of the 2020-21 season, when he grew into one of the best players in the country.
Did Kofi change the fortunes of Illini basketball? Of Course! He was fabulous. He's my avatar! It took some dang good coaching to turn him into an All-American.
No one is going to argue that this season was his best job at constructing a roster or coaching up a group of guys, but it's a pretty good team considering what was left in the cupboard after last March. It's still a team with enough talent to make some great memories this month.
I know it's not the season anyone was hoping for, but if we can remain competitive in an obvious re-build year, imagine what can be done with a little continuity.
BU has been tremendous at identifying talent. We missed on quite few big men early in his tenure, but he was always chasing the right guys. Think about some of the misses...
Flo Thamba
Oscar T.
Timme
Kalkbrenner
Castleton
We are consistently barking up the right trees. Occasionally, it pays off.
If you are going to count his first two seasons against him, seasons where he had maybe 3-5 B1G caliber players on the roster and was desperate to find anyone taller than him to play for us, you need to count the seasons where his plan came together too.
Anyone pretending Freshman Ayo was an NBA guy has a warped sense of history. There were MANY people on this board, even halfway through his Soph year that were saying "This guy was supposed to be an NBA prospect? I'm not seeing it..." The backcourt of Frazier and Dosunmu didn't have anyone shaking in their boots. (Sophomore Dos was a All-B1G honorable mention, so considered maybe the 4th best SG in the league) We all see him through the lens of the 2020-21 season, when he grew into one of the best players in the country.
Did Kofi change the fortunes of Illini basketball? Of Course! He was fabulous. He's my avatar! It took some dang good coaching to turn him into an All-American.
No one is going to argue that this season was his best job at constructing a roster or coaching up a group of guys, but it's a pretty good team considering what was left in the cupboard after last March. It's still a team with enough talent to make some great memories this month.
I know it's not the season anyone was hoping for, but if we can remain competitive in an obvious re-build year, imagine what can be done with a little continuity.
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