Ohio State 72, Illinois 60 Postgame

[NarrowJ]

Brad's a great coach, I'm not getting involved in that debate.

But Kofi was absolutely a generational player, in the college game - or at least for Illinois, which is the context in which I read that original remark. Much has been said here about the differences between college and NBA effectiveness, and what NBA teams look for today vs. 20 years ago. I don't think Kofi's lack of NBA time makes for a fair comparison.

He's the fifth multi-year consensus AA in 100+ years of Illini basketball (plus being BT Freshman of the Year his first year). He and Dee are the only two in modern times. This to me defines 'generational'.

I guess we have extremely different opinions on the definition of generational player. You're talking only in the context of Illinois basketball, and you used a single metric (multi-year consensus AA) to determine this?

 

[sacraig]

Well, gee... this part is a bit over-the-top. Kofi has not even played in an NBA game. Phenomenal college player, and unique because of his sheer size and strength. Generational talent? No.

Brad has won at every place and level he has coached. Mostly without a 'generational talent' (well, all without by my count, as I cannot force myself to categorize Kofi Cockburn as a 'generational talent').

He has more wins than any other coach in the conference over the past 4 years. The needle needs to point downward a bit more (and for a bit longer than a single season that isn't even over yet) before people start diminishing what he's accomplished here.

Also, can we not claim that the needle is pointing downward? If this is a down year for us, I am okay with that because that means a down year is flirting with the top 25 all season, making the tournament, and finishing in the top half of the conference.

This is what a down year for Illinois  should look like.

 

[illinistephen]

I don't think anyone read my entire post. I'm talking X's and O's and game prep. There is no question in my mind that Greg Gard is a better X's and O's coach than BU for example.

I also said BU is good at building a staff and recruiting talent. In that respect I would take him over Gard, Shrewsbury, Pikiell, probably Painter.

You combine all that and I think he is a decent coach. Until he can win without a generational talent like Kofi I don't see how you can rate him any higher than that.

BU is not just the coach he is also the GM of the team. He is in charge of scouting, recruiting, tactics, game-planning, in-game management, training regimen, and more. You picked X's and O's as your trait. I don't know enough to know how BU rates against his peers in this trait, but I do assume that you'd be taken to task by some for saying that BU was average or below average relative to his peers on just about any individual trait of importance. Even if you caveat that in totality everything is good.

 

[mysterio2525]

Brad's a great coach, I'm not getting involved in that debate.

But Kofi was absolutely a generational player, in the college game - or at least for Illinois, which is the context in which I read that original remark. Much has been said here about the differences between college and NBA effectiveness, and what NBA teams look for today vs. 20 years ago. I don't think Kofi's lack of NBA time makes for a fair comparison.

He's the fifth multi-year consensus AA in 100+ years of Illini basketball (plus being BT Freshman of the Year his first year). He and Dee are the only two in modern times. This to me defines 'generational'.

View attachment 23743

How did Frank Williams and Brian cook win big ten player of the year and not make 2nd team all American? Also ray woods must have been a balla.

 

[FreshlySqueezed]

11-9 with the Illini schedule is underachieving IMO. I would think an average coach could attain that. They played the easiest Big 10 schedule possible. 10 games vs WI, Neb, PSU, Minn, Ohio State. If 11-9 is the floor, then great. But I think it’s more the norm than the floor given yearly roster turnover and records without Kofi.

I won’t get on Brad too much for lack of NCAA success bc often times it’s a crapshoot. But I will critique what his teams have looked like without Kofi. IMO, they are a level similar to Weber and Henson’s late tenures which both got them sent packing. Post Lou, I think we upgraded. Post Weber, obvious a downgrade.

Another way to look at it would be to say Brad went 11-9 after losing his top 5 and 6 of his top 7 scorers from the previous season.

You said Holtmann was better. How is OSU doing this year after turning over a big portion of their roster and not having a "generational talent"?

 

[RabidDawgClassic]

I guess we have extremely different opinions on the definition of generational player. You're talking only in the context of Illinois basketball, and you used a single metric (multi-year consensus AA) to determine this?

I’ve been an Illinois fan since 1982. I’d say I’ve never seen a player quite like Kofi in my time. Not that there haven’t been better scorers or more talented players, but for his position and what he was able to accomplish, he’s a unicorn for my generation, at least.

 

[NarrowJ]

I’ve been an Illinois fan since 1982. I’d say I’ve never seen a player quite like Kofi in my time. Not that there haven’t been better scorers or more talented players, but for his position and what he was able to accomplish, he’s a unicorn for my generation, at least.

That's exactly what I said in my original reply. He was a phenomenal college player and unique in his sheer size and strength.

Is he a generational talent? I think of LeBron, Jordan, etc. Calling him a generational talent without first any providing any context at all (ie, limited to Illinois players, for instance) is disingenuous and really just absurd.

 

[dbeverly26]

11-9 with the Illini schedule is underachieving IMO. I would think an average coach could attain that. They played the easiest Big 10 schedule possible. 10 games vs WI, Neb, PSU, Minn, Ohio State. If 11-9 is the floor, then great. But I think it’s more the norm than the floor given yearly roster turnover and records without Kofi.

I won’t get on Brad too much for lack of NCAA success bc often times it’s a crapshoot. But I will critique what his teams have looked like without Kofi. IMO, they are a level similar to Weber and Henson’s late tenures which both got them sent packing. Post Lou, I think we upgraded. Post Weber, obvious a downgrade.

I don't want to get into an argument over what 'average' means here, but if you're saying that this is more or less what Underwood will give us every year (except for years where he recruits top-caliber talent, which clearly don't count for reasons), I'm just gonna disagree.

 

[bluemountain]

Another way to look at it would be to say Brad went 11-9 after losing his top 5 and 6 of his top 7 scorers from the previous season.

You said Holtmann was better. How is OSU doing this year after turning over a big portion of their roster and not having a "generational talent"?

I said arguably better in terms of X's and O's. And BU brought in 2 experienced NBA prospects from the portal.

 

[bluemountain]

That's exactly what I said in my original reply. He was a phenomenal college player and unique in his sheer size and strength.

Is he a generational talent? I think of LeBron, Jordan, etc. Calling him a generational talent without first any providing any context at all (ie, limited to Illinois players, for instance) is disingenuous and really just absurd.

Come on, you know what I meant. but to spell it out, he is the most impactful UI player in my lifetime - more so than DW, Dee, Harper, Norman, Gill, etc

 

[NarrowJ]

Come on, you know what I meant. but to spell it out, he is the most impactful UI player in my lifetime - more so than DW, Dee, Harper, Norman, Gill, etc

I knew what you meant? Your original statement was that he was a 'generational talent' and now you've backpedaled all of the way to "most impactful University of Illinois player in my lifetime" and we can agree to disagree that he was more impactful than Deron Williams or Dee Brown to the success of our program.

 

[IMPE ALL STAR]

I agree with 2018. But 2019 he had Ayo, Frazier, Feliz, Griffin. That’s plenty of wing talent. Still only went 7-13. He had NBA PG at OSU and went 9-9. This year 11-9 with 3 NBA hopefuls. Underwood inherited a great program at SFA. Kudos to him for keeping it going but it’s like Self taking over at Kansas.

Underwood’s huge major D1 success is due to one player. Without Kofi, he’s proven to be just a guy. And this year has really proven it when some consider Illinois to have the most talent in the Big 10 and yet finish probably 11-9 with quite a few inexplicable blowouts

I can’t help but have this lingering in the back of my head.

 

[Battle89]

I knew what you meant? Your original statement was that he was a 'generational talent' and now you've backpedaled all of the way to "most impactful University of Illinois player in my lifetime" and we can agree to disagree that he was more impactful than Deron Williams or Dee Brown to the success of our program.

Choosing my words carefully here, as I agreed with @NarrowJ in terms of Brad's coaching ability - Brad did not need Kofi to validate that he was a good coach.

However I interpreted @bluemountain 's 'generational talent' exactly as he later clarified it, most impactful Illinois player in my lifetime. And I tend to agree. The 89 team was stronger, and the 05 guard trio was stronger (and had three AAs as well, to continue my metric), but one single player might be Kofi.

TL; DR: I don't necessarily agree with blue's original premise, but I don't think he or she is backpedaling now. Agree we are defining generation differently @NarrowJ .

 

[NarrowJ]

To me, it is the difference between saying "BU can't win without Kofi Cockburn" and "BU can't win without [insert NBA Hall-of-Famer]"... which neither statement is true as was pointed out. So, maybe it wasn't disingenuous. I am happy to give the benefit of doubt. But it's still incorrect, either way, so the definition of 'generational talent' is really moot here.

 

[dbeverly26]

I can’t help but have this lingering in the back of my head.

See a doctor and get rid of it.

 

[FreshlySqueezed]

I said arguably better in terms of X's and O's. And BU brought in 2 experienced NBA prospects from the portal.

Holtmann hasn't won more than 12 Big Ten games in any season since his first season there when he took over Thad's roster. What about Holtmann's resume suggests he is a better X's and O's coach than BU?

 

[bluemountain]

To me, it is the difference between saying "BU can't win without Kofi Cockburn" and "BU can't win without [insert NBA Hall-of-Famer]"... which neither statement is true as was pointed out. So, maybe it wasn't disingenuous. I am happy to give the benefit of doubt. But it's still incorrect, either way, so the definition of 'generational talent' is really moot here.

We will see....he hasn't done it yet at the P5 level - he's a .500 coach in conference play w/out Kofi, albeit with a small sample size. I would love to be wrong btw

 

[NarrowJ]

We will see....he hasn't done it yet at the P5 level - he's a .500 coach in conference play w/out Kofi, albeit with a small sample size. I would love to be wrong btw

Well you can't just completely disregard a coach's best 3 years when evaluating them. That's plain silly to refuse to give him credit for those seasons. Did he not bring Kofi in and coach him? Kofi wasn't even a 5 star recruit.

This is year 1 post-Kofi. Forget pre-Kofi. We all know what he inherited (and what he's turned it into, no less). He is 19-10 post-Kofi for a .655 winning percentage and 10-7 in conference for a .588 winning percentage. Did you think we'd improve our record this year losing Kofi and a bunch of 5th year guys?

 

[Rudd21]

At the beginning of the year, everyone said it would be a difficult season getting this team to mesh with two one year guys

I don’t think many that get paid to cover basketball said that at all.

Jeremy Werner picked Illinois to finish 2nd in the Big 10. The AP had Illinois at preseason #23. And it’s because there was a lot of perceived talent on the team. 3 upperclassmen on NBA draft boards (Hawkins, Shannon, Mayer). 3 top 75 freshmen (Clark, Epps, Rodgers). 2 Sophs expected to make leaps (Melendez, and Goode).

Despite that talent, they’ve had the following games they’ve trailed by as many as:

18 vs Penn State
35 vs Mizzou
13 at Northwestern
21 vs Indiana
17 at Penn State
18 vs Northwestern
15 at Ohio State

None of those teams have as much talent as Illinois. Mizzou was a team put together with mostly transfers with a first year coach. Ohio State is bad. Penn State probably misses the tourney. Northwestern is a solid team but certainly not more talented than Illinois. The only loss in this group that is forgivable loss is Indiana. When you have games you get behind that much, with superior talent, that’s a coaching issue IMO. If it was just 1 game, that happens. This has been going on all season. So 11-9 with a big talent advantage isn’t a good precursor to the future IMO when that talent advantage may not be there.

 

[NarrowJ]

18 vs Penn State
35 vs Mizzou
13 at Northwestern
21 vs Indiana
17 at Penn State
18 vs Northwestern
15 at Ohio State

LOL now we're going through and cherry picking the absolute low point of every single disappointing loss on the schedule and using that as a barometer to evaluate the job he's done? Forget about all the wins, conf championships, etcetera. Geez, get right out town...

 

[Rudd21]

Another way to look at it would be to say Brad went 11-9 after losing his top 5 and 6 of his top 7 scorers from the previous season.

You said Holtmann was better. How is OSU doing this year after turning over a big portion of their roster and not having a "generational talent"?

I never said Holtmann was better. You are confusing me with another poster. Holtmann is probably going to get fired.

 

[Rudd21]

He is 19-10 post-Kofi for a .655 winning percentage and 10-7 in conference for a .588 winning percentage. Did you think we'd improve our record this year losing Kofi and a bunch of 5th year guys?

We’re 10-8 in the conference. That’s a .555 winning percentage. Most likely finishing 11-9 which makes a 0.550 winning percentage. And that is with playing the easiest possible in conference schedule having played the bottom teams the max number of times.

Underwood should get great credit for recruiting and developing a generational big man like Kofi. But the issue with that is whether it’s replicable in the future. Talented wings and guards are a dime a dozen. Underwood has brought in plenty of those guys. But without the big man, his major conference success has been middling despite having good wing/guard talent.

 

[NarrowJ]

We’re 10-8 in the conference. That’s a .555 winning percentage. Most likely finishing 11-9 which makes a 0.550 winning percentage. And that is with playing the easiest possible in conference schedule having played the bottom teams the max number of times.

Underwood should get great credit for recruiting and developing a generational big man like Kofi. But the issue with that is whether it’s replicable in the future. Talented wings and guards are a dime a dozen. Underwood has brought in plenty of those guys. But without the big man, his major conference success has been middling despite having good wing/guard talent.

My bad on the conf record. Not sure where I pulled that from. Thanks for the correction. Doesn't change much imo. It's one more loss in a conference that has 80 percent of its teams fighting for spots 2 thru 12.

I am not using his 1st two years here against him like many do. That's my choice. Rather, I appreciate what he's turned the program into since those seasons. We've underperformed this year and that does not make him a sub-par coach. That's just my opinion.

 

[Illiniguy13]

We’re 10-8 in the conference. That’s a .555 winning percentage. Most likely finishing 11-9 which makes a 0.550 winning percentage. And that is with playing the easiest possible in conference schedule having played the bottom teams the max number of times.

Underwood should get great credit for recruiting and developing a generational big man like Kofi. But the issue with that is whether it’s replicable in the future. Talented wings and guards are a dime a dozen. Underwood has brought in plenty of those guys. But without the big man, his major conference success has been middling despite having good wing/guard talent.

 

[Emerson Bigguns]

I reject the premise of grading BU on his non-Kofi performance, as though the Kofi years didn't count. Kofi playing at the U of I wasn't an accident. It wasn't as though Kofi was a can't miss prospect. He was a borderline top 50 prep player. A very good prospect, but a significant project. Most scouts that saw him play were there for Cole Anthony. Kofi was largely an afterthought. BU & Co went to NY to recruit him specifically. They sold him on U of I, how he would be utilized, and he committed very quickly.

BU has been tremendous at identifying talent. We missed on quite few big men early in his tenure, but he was always chasing the right guys. Think about some of the misses...

Flo Thamba
Oscar T.
Timme
Kalkbrenner
Castleton

We are consistently barking up the right trees. Occasionally, it pays off.

If you are going to count his first two seasons against him, seasons where he had maybe 3-5 B1G caliber players on the roster and was desperate to find anyone taller than him to play for us, you need to count the seasons where his plan came together too.

Anyone pretending Freshman Ayo was an NBA guy has a warped sense of history. There were MANY people on this board, even halfway through his Soph year that were saying "This guy was supposed to be an NBA prospect? I'm not seeing it..." The backcourt of Frazier and Dosunmu didn't have anyone shaking in their boots. (Sophomore Dos was a All-B1G honorable mention, so considered maybe the 4th best SG in the league) We all see him through the lens of the 2020-21 season, when he grew into one of the best players in the country.

Did Kofi change the fortunes of Illini basketball? Of Course! He was fabulous. He's my avatar! It took some dang good coaching to turn him into an All-American.

No one is going to argue that this season was his best job at constructing a roster or coaching up a group of guys, but it's a pretty good team considering what was left in the cupboard after last March. It's still a team with enough talent to make some great memories this month.

I know it's not the season anyone was hoping for, but if we can remain competitive in an obvious re-build year, imagine what can be done with a little continuity.