Ohio State 86, Illinois 83 Postgame

illinitiger · Feb 25, 2022

FromTheLogo said:
So I re-watched the game (brutal). But 2 things:

1) The expression Holtman used in the timeout I referenced on an earlier post was: "Respond with force." tOSU did respond but the refs didn't respond

2) Since tOSU does not move the ball much and plays off-the-bounce, I tracked which Illini was scored on. If an Illini fouled and put the opponent on the line, the points counted against him. I included the equivalent of pts/40 min against. Then for kicks I added the points they scored on offense in the game. Basically it broke down like this:

Trent - played 31 minutes had 10 pts against (12.9 per 40 min) He scored: 12
Jake - played 31 minutes had 10 pts against (12.9 per 40 min) He scored: 14
Plumm3r - played 30 minutes had 10 pts against (13.3 per 40 min) He scored: 26
DMW - played 26 minutes had 16 pts against (24.6 per 40 min) He scored: 2
CoHawk - played 26 minutes had 12 pts against (18.4 per 40 min) He scored: 10
Kofi - played 24 minutes had 16 pts against (26.6 per 40 min) He scored: 12
Belo - played 18 minutes had 4 pts against (8.9 per 40 min) He scored: 7
Goode - played 8 minutes had 0 pts against (0.0 per 40 min) He scored: 0
Omar - played 5 minutes had 2 pts against (16.0 per 40 min) He scored: 0
Podz - played 1 minute had 2 pts against (80.0 per 40 min) He scored: 0
Coach - played 0 minutes had 4 pts against (Infinity per 40 min) He scored: 0

Take as you wish, but DMW and Kofi each had a rough game.

Notables:
Branham only had 10 of his 31 on Trent
Young had 13 on Kofi.
Liddell had 8 on CoHawk, 7 on DMW
Kofi kicked the ball out of the post 6 times which led to 2 points (a Belo bucket).

Synopsis..
-Goode is our best defender
-BU is our worst defender

greyghost70 · Feb 25, 2022

forbesfrosh said:
Excellent points, especially the stupid foul when we we had gotten within two and had all the momentum. You can't foul a guy so deep in the backcourt and put them on the line rather than make them work for a basket. Inexcusable for a 5th year senior.
This underlines what has become increasingly obvious in the last month or so--you can't have Williams playing more than 10 minutes or so per game in light of the emergency of Hawkins and Melendez. He is a total non-factor on offense and you can't play 4-on-5 with the ball for as long as we do when Williams is in. He's a tough player who has given his all for the Illini, but his defense simply no longer justifies so much PT when we now have better options overall.

IMHO if he would have gotten a flagrant 2 on that childish elbow he threw we would have won this game as Curbelo and/or Goode would have gotten his minutes and he wouldn't have been in to make the last stupid foul. Well, three more Big Ten games with him and we won't have to hear anymore of the legend of DMFW.

Calillini · Feb 25, 2022

illini 67 said:
The good out of this lose:
1. Grandy seems be backed to dropping threes
2. Plummer is back in a heater.
3. Hawk is starting to realize he can not only stop good player he can score on them.
4. The press works pretty well.
5. You can't let it be close or the referee gets to decide the game.

And the bad news is ……

They outscored us

thehass · Feb 25, 2022

Our best bball was when Kofi was not in the game. I like the run and and gun transition game we had with Ayo. We have a small team whose talents are best served by running the court. Our half court offense is so one dimensional that my wife can figure it out. we don't get to the foul line because it's all about get it in to Kofi. I love Kofi but he is not a skilled offensive player. He alone will not get us to the promise land. BU needs to figure out what he has and use it wisely and not be so predictable. What will he do when Kofi is gone? Our offense is 3 ball or try to get to Kofi. Not much else. We could have a great season but from what i'm seeing now is disappointment and wait til next year.

KnoxIllini2 · Feb 25, 2022

greyghost70 said:
IMHO if he would have gotten a flagrant 2 on that childish elbow he threw we would have won this game as Curbelo and/or Goode would have gotten his minutes and he wouldn't have been in to make the last stupid foul. Well, three more Big Ten games with him and we won't have to hear anymore of the legend of DMFW.

lulz. yeah, DMFW’s legend, ain’t going no where.

InDaAZ · Feb 25, 2022

thehass said:
Our best bball was when Kofi was not in the game. I like the run and and gun transition game we had with Ayo. We have a small team whose talents are best served by running the court. Our half court offense is so one dimensional that my wife can figure it out. we don't get to the foul line because it's all about get it in to Kofi. I love Kofi but he is not a skilled offensive player. He alone will not get us to the promise land. BU needs to figure out what he has and use it wisely and not be so predictable. What will he do when Kofi is gone? Our offense is 3 ball or try to get to Kofi. Not much else. We could have a great season but from what i'm seeing now is disappointment and wait til next year.

Yeah, that Kofi guy couldn’t put the ball in the basket if the rim was 5 feet wide and 6 feet off the floor…

N T A C F · Feb 25, 2022

Gee. It’s almost like we don’t play the same team and coaching staff every game. Teams with multiple bigs and good coaches can neutralize Kofi.

We have to adapt.

GBIllini · Feb 25, 2022

N T A C F said:
Gee. It’s almost like we don’t play the same team and coaching staff every game. Teams with multiple bigs and good coaches can neutralize Kofi.

We have to adapt.

Well the most common strategy to deal with Kofi is too double/triple team him while fouling the s#&t out of him counting on the refs to only call 1 out 10 fouls. Most of the time the refs comply, yet Kofi still gets 20+ pts and 10+ rebounds a game. No way you can stop feeding him the ball.

logjam · Feb 25, 2022

GBIllini said:
Well the most common strategy to deal with Kofi is too double/triple team him while fouling the s#&t out of him counting on the refs to only call 1 out 10 fouls. Most of the time the refs comply, yet Kofi still gets 20+ pts and 10+ rebounds a game. No way you can stop feeding him the ball.

Agree 100% I was very surprised that with Plummer going off it wasn't easier for Kofi...hmmmm.

pruman91 · Feb 26, 2022

Takeaways from Illinois' spirited rally that fell short against Ohio State

Brad Underwood was tossed and Kofi Cockburn was on the bench, but Illinois still almost found a way to stage a comeback.

www.stltoday.com

CHAMPAIGN, Ill. — Without its coach or its best player, Illinois staged a spirited rally late Thursday.
Brad Underwood was ejected and Kofi Cockburn fouled out, but a 10-0 run helped get Illinois within one with 14 seconds left.
Trent Frazier threw the ball away with a chance to tie or take the lead, and No. 15 Illinois fell 86-83 to No. 22 Ohio State at the State Farm Center.
“Had a lay-in to tie it,” Underwood said. “These guys fought back. That’s a prideful bunch.”

That late run with a full-court press and a new five-out set with Cockburn on the bench miraculously turned a game where the Illini were being run off their home court into a nail-bitter. It wasn’t enough with Malaki Branham’s 31 points leading the Buckeyes to a late escape.

“You can write that we lost, but the biggest story is how much pride this group has and how hard they fought and there was a few things gained tonight as well,” Underwood said.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

nice read

pruman91 · Feb 26, 2022

We understand you completely Brad................................we really really really do................................

pvaughn8 · Feb 26, 2022

pruman91 said:
View attachment 15781

We understand you completely Brad................................we really really really do................................

If this guy ever runs into pruman on the street...

pruman91 · Feb 26, 2022

pvaughn8 said:
If this guy ever runs into pruman on the street...

NJJ871 · Feb 26, 2022

pruman91 said:
View attachment 15782

Learn something new every day….who knew that Christopher Walken played the Cowardly Lion?

pruman91 · Feb 26, 2022

NJJ871 said:
Learn something new every day….who knew that Christopher Walken played the Cowardly Lion?

maybe I meant that to be d j bald head ref after he saw me walking up to kick his butt.....It really really could be.........................

DMWSuperFan · Feb 26, 2022

bootsy1974 said:
We were as hot as anyone at this time last year into March and didn't get past the second round. NCAA tournament is a different situation. It's not about being hot going into the tourney it's about the right matchup for us. We could play a team that we match up very well with and win both games.

I disagree to an extent. While being “hot” doesn’t guarantee you anything in the tournament, playing good basketball at the right time definitely matters. It is in no way the ONLY thing that matters, but confidence matters and playing good basketball matters and those tend to create “hot” streaks. Can you still lay an egg? Of course. Can another team still matchup well and beat you? Sure. But does going into the tournament on a series of games that your offense is not flowing well and you’re struggling to put together 40 minutes of competitive play bode well for that next game? No. All games are independent events for the most part, so being “hot” doesn’t give you a head start in the game, but playing poorly in the games leading up to the tournament makes it more difficult to suddenly change all that and play well when you HAVE to play well or you will go home early.

DMWSuperFan · Feb 26, 2022

FromTheLogo said:
So I re-watched the game (brutal). But 2 things:

1) The expression Holtman used in the timeout I referenced on an earlier post was: "Respond with force." tOSU did respond but the refs didn't respond

2) Since tOSU does not move the ball much and plays off-the-bounce, I tracked which Illini was scored on. If an Illini fouled and put the opponent on the line, the points counted against him. I included the equivalent of pts/40 min against. Then for kicks I added the points they scored on offense in the game. Basically it broke down like this:

Trent - played 31 minutes had 10 pts against (12.9 per 40 min) He scored: 12
Jake - played 31 minutes had 10 pts against (12.9 per 40 min) He scored: 14
Plumm3r - played 30 minutes had 10 pts against (13.3 per 40 min) He scored: 26
DMW - played 26 minutes had 16 pts against (24.6 per 40 min) He scored: 2
CoHawk - played 26 minutes had 12 pts against (18.4 per 40 min) He scored: 10
Kofi - played 24 minutes had 16 pts against (26.6 per 40 min) He scored: 12
Belo - played 18 minutes had 4 pts against (8.9 per 40 min) He scored: 7
Goode - played 8 minutes had 0 pts against (0.0 per 40 min) He scored: 0
Omar - played 5 minutes had 2 pts against (16.0 per 40 min) He scored: 0
Podz - played 1 minute had 2 pts against (80.0 per 40 min) He scored: 0
Coach - played 0 minutes had 4 pts against (Infinity per 40 min) He scored: 0

Take as you wish, but DMW and Kofi each had a rough game.

Notables:
Branham only had 10 of his 31 on Trent
Young had 13 on Kofi.
Liddell had 8 on CoHawk, 7 on DMW
Kofi kicked the ball out of the post 6 times which led to 2 points (a Belo bucket).

Matchups matter too. DMW for instance is usually given an extremely tough matchup. Not sure how you managed switching on screens, but that can play a factor too, or if helping off ball. Defense is very difficult to put into a simple metric like this (not discounting your effort). If Plummer gets beat off the dribble so DMW helps and they kick it to his man and the next guy doesn’t rotate - wide open shot on DMW. Same can happen on a double team in the post or if Kofi helps in a screen and ball defender plays loose and screener slips down for a dunk. Defense is largely a team metric and makes it very difficult to track, even if the offense doesn’t move the ball a lot.

Incredible compilation of data though.

bootsy1974 · Feb 26, 2022

DMWSuperFan said:
I disagree to an extent. While being “hot” doesn’t guarantee you anything in the tournament, playing good basketball at the right time definitely matters. It is in no way the ONLY thing that matters, but confidence matters and playing good basketball matters and those tend to create “hot” streaks. Can you still lay an egg? Of course. Can another team still matchup well and beat you? Sure. But does going into the tournament on a series of games that your offense is not flowing well and you’re struggling to put together 40 minutes of competitive play bode well for that next game? No. All games are independent events for the most part, so being “hot” doesn’t give you a head start in the game, but playing poorly in the games leading up to the tournament makes it more difficult to suddenly change all that and play well when you HAVE to play well or you will go home early.

There have been plenty of teams that go into the tournament on a winning streak and lose early in the tourney.

There have been plenty of teams that have gotten to the Final Four and won the national championship losing their last game or last few games before the tournament.

Also you can play with confidence and still lose.

You are trying to equate playing well going into the tournament as that team will do well in the tournament and that simply isn't true.

the juiceman cometh · Feb 26, 2022

bootsy1974 said:
There have been plenty of teams that go into the tournament on a winning streak and lose early in the tourney.

There have been plenty of teams that have gotten to the Final Four and won the national championship losing their last game or last few games before the tournament.

Also you can play with confidence and still lose.

You are trying to equate playing well going into the tournament as that team will do well in the tournament and that simply isn't true.

Idk, there is at least some data to back up pre-tournament form as a predictor of success. 16 of the last 24 national champions made it to their conference tourney's final, and since 1993, no champion has been bounced prior to the semis of their conference tourney.

How recent eventual March Madness men's champions did in their conference tournaments

Here's how every DI men's basketball national champion has done in its conference tournament since 1994.

www.ncaa.com

DMWSuperFan · Feb 26, 2022

bootsy1974 said:
There have been plenty of teams that go into the tournament on a winning streak and lose early in the tourney.

There have been plenty of teams that have gotten to the Final Four and won the national championship losing their last game or last few games before the tournament.

Also you can play with confidence and still lose.

You are trying to equate playing well going into the tournament as that team will do well in the tournament and that simply isn't true.

I don’t think they are 100% equal. One does not cause the other.

But are you really suggesting that teams playing well at the end of the season don’t also perform better in the tournament than teams playing poorly at the end of the season?

Losing a few games at the end of the season is an indicator of not playing well USUALLY. You can of course play well and lose, but USUALLY. Playing well leads to hot streaks. Can any team start playing well at any point? Sure. But I’m pretty sure the data will show more teams win their last few games and then do well in the tournament than the other way around.

bootsy1974 · Feb 26, 2022

the juiceman cometh said:
Idk, there is at least some data to back up pre-tournament form as a predictor of success. 16 of the last 24 national champions made it to their conference tourney's final, and since 1993, no champion has been bounced prior to the semis of their conference tourney.

How recent eventual March Madness men's champions did in their conference tournaments

Here's how every DI men's basketball national champion has done in its conference tournament since 1994.

www.ncaa.com

I didn't say just national champions but teams that make the Final Four. How many that made it to their conference tourney final lost say 4 of their last 6, 3 of their last 5, etc. before their conference tourney.

Bottom line is there is no correlation to going into the tournament hot and playing well in the tournament.

bootsy1974 · Feb 26, 2022

DMWSuperFan said:
I don’t think they are 100% equal. One does not cause the other.

But are you really suggesting that teams playing well at the end of the season don’t also perform better in the tournament than teams playing poorly at the end of the season?

Losing a few games at the end of the season is an indicator of not playing well USUALLY. You can of course play well and lose, but USUALLY. Playing well leads to hot streaks. Can any team start playing well at any point? Sure. But I’m pretty sure the data will show more teams win their last few games and then do well in the tournament than the other way around.

Just enjoy the rest of the season. Goodness.

the juiceman cometh · Feb 26, 2022

bootsy1974 said:
I didn't say just national champions but teams that make the Final Four. How many that made it to their conference tourney final lost say 4 of their last 6, 3 of their last 5, etc. before their conference tourney.

Bottom line is there is no correlation to going into the tournament hot and playing well in the tournament.

I'd like to see some data to back up the claim of no correlation because I find that hard to believe. The link I provided is at least some support (even if incomplete) for the opposite position, so if it's true that there is literally no correlation between pre-tournament form and tournament success, please provide some data.

FromTheLogo · Feb 26, 2022

DMWSuperFan said:
Matchups matter too. DMW for instance is usually given an extremely tough matchup. Not sure how you managed switching on screens, but that can play a factor too, or if helping off ball. Defense is very difficult to put into a simple metric like this (not discounting your effort). If Plummer gets beat off the dribble so DMW helps and they kick it to his man and the next guy doesn’t rotate - wide open shot on DMW. Same can happen on a double team in the post or if Kofi helps in a screen and ball defender plays loose and screener slips down for a dunk. Defense is largely a team metric and makes it very difficult to track, even if the offense doesn’t move the ball a lot.

Incredible compilation of data though.

Yeah, there are lots of factors, but I didn't want to lengthen the already long post. Surprisingly, many plays are 1-on-1 with Ohio State. But to your point, when Branham "scored" on Podz, he came off a screen (Kofi's man) and Kofi was sagging deep. Podz was close enough to keep his hand on Branham, so I attributed it to Podz but I think Kofi was as much to blame. However, as I mentioned in the original post, most scoring instances were easy to attribute due to tOSU's style of play.

As far as matchups, yes, that's why I thought of doing this. I didn't post it all, but I tracked who scored on whom. For instance, Branham scored on 7 different players believe it or not. DMW and Kofi did not matchup well against Liddell and Young, respectively.

It was a fun exercise (fun used loosely since we lost).

bootsy1974 · Feb 26, 2022

the juiceman cometh said:
I'd like to see some data to back up the claim of no correlation because I find that hard to believe. The link I provided is at least some support (even if incomplete) for the opposite position, so if it's true that there is literally no correlation between pre-tournament form and tournament success, please provide some data.

LOL you find it hard to believe that a team that won the national title, made the title game or just got to the Final Four lost 4 of their last 6 or something similar before their conference tourney and/or didn't win their conference tournament?
OK

You also said that 16 of the last 24 national champions made it to their conference tourney final. Some of those 16 lost in their conference tourney final that means they went into the NCAA tournament with a loss. And since 1993, no champion has been bounced prior to the semis of their conference tourney. In both of these situations those teams didn't go into the tournament hot.

Ohio State 86, Illinois 83 Postgame

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