Pregame: Illinois vs Central Michigan, Saturday, December 10th, 2:00pm CT, BTN Plus

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#51      
BirdDog9048
DoctorOrange said:
Can someone please explain to me why our offense doesn't get us good 3pt shots? We have two great 3pt shooters on the team (Abrams, JCL) yet they don't seem to be able to get open looks even against weak competition. I've never been able to figure out Groce's offense, but at some point you'd think he'd want to play to our strengths.
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I seem to recall Tracy taking a handful of fairly open 3s in the last game. When the ball goes deep into the corner (or long baseline) and his defender collapses, he's normally open on the high wing.
 
#52      
WesterveltVictoryCigar
DoctorOrange said:
Can someone please explain to me why our offense doesn't get us good 3pt shots? We have two great 3pt shooters on the team (Abrams, JCL) yet they don't seem to be able to get open looks even against weak competition. I've never been able to figure out Groce's offense, but at some point you'd think he'd want to play to our strengths.
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Yeah, we take too many mid range jump shots. Black and Hill have done a decent job making those, but our offense would be better if we could shift some of that mid range to 3 pointers or drives to the hoop, maybe leading to more FTs.
 
#53      
ChiefIllini
Abrams hasn't proven hes a lights out 3 pt shooter under pressure (he missed a wide open three last night too--though everyone misses from time to time). JCL's mechanics are the best on this team. He's in a league of his own. Then I'd group Abrams, Finke, and Hill (thought I think Hill will end the season as the best of the bunch followed by Abrams then Finke). And then everyone else. And as whovous said, we've shot decent from beyond the arc so far, teamwise. Abrams and Hill are having career years. I'd say we get at least 7 open/good shots a game. Maybe even an under estimate. That aint bad. This team seems built to succeed at shooting at all three levels, so far our midrange game has been the bright spot. Hopefully our paint points go up, which in turn will help 3pt shots.
 
#54      
BirdDog9048
FollowTisdale said:
I was mostly just wanting to get a dig in on Tate, who should never see the floor outside of Kevin Buridinie (sic) minutes. I'll try and make a better one...

...

Reverse that for Tate. Do you know what kind of defense he's going to have to put up to make up for being a negative on offense to the point of his defender being able to completely forget about him? Naismith, College Basketball HOF, Defensive POY type defense.
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I'm not sure Tate warrants quite that much vitriol. He's a decent rebounder out of the PG position, currently leads the team in assists/game, and his A:TO ratio is second only to Tracy.

On occasion this year, he has also shown that he will take advantage when his defender over helps to cut off passing lanes, by driving to the basket. He has a high basketball IQ and has shown himself to be a fairly reliable FT shooter, which explain his late game usage.

Is he a B1G starting PG? No. Could we do a lot worse than a 6'3" senior backup PG? Yes.
 
#55      
ChiefIllini
I think most of the Tate hate comes from his past three years of frustration. Looking at him this year vs Tejon in a vacuum, I dont see any reason to think Tejon deserves more minutes than Tate does. JT obviously has zero range, but if he can get to the basket once or twice a game, maybe draw a foul or two, why is he such a bad backup? Sans potential, I dont get why Tejon needs to be playing 20+ minutes a game and Tate get under 5. I'd be fine with a 10/10 split. Its when tate is playing 20+ minutes that concerns me.

For the 1 and 2, a breakdown of minutes like:
1: TA-20 mins|JT-10 mins|TJL-10 mins
2: JCL-25 mins|TA-10 mins|AJ- 5 mins

This makes the most sense to me. AJ plays hard enough and smart enough to deserve 5 mins per game. I think the ultimate goal is to have TA diminishing minutes at the 2 and increased usage at the 1. I think like most people here, more DJW and AJ are something we want.

Another point--has JCL been fouling a lot or is it just me? Seems like his D is really sloppy. Limits his PT too. Which creates a ripple down.
 
#56      
urbanite
ChiefIllini said:
Another point--has JCL been fouling a lot or is it just me? Seems like his D is really sloppy. Limits his PT too. Which creates a ripple down.
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Take a look at the tempo-free stats I posted in this thread. He's behind only Black and Thorne for most fouls per 100 possessions. At the pace we play, he's probably averaging right at five fouls per 40 minutes.
 
#57      
Oskee67
WestIllini said:
4. Besides Keene and a guy named Blake Hibbitts (2.7 PPG) they do not shoot the 3 ball particularly well.
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So what you're really saying is Hibbits will have a career day and go 6/7 from 3?
 
#58      
DoctorOrange
whovous said:
We shoot ~39.5% from three. That is not all that terrible.
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That's my point. At the end of the game last night we were consistently relying on the worst shot in basketball (long 2pters). Yes, we (Hill) made them, but that's not a recipe for success.
 
#59      
Illini B-Ball Fan
Since our defense tends to be a weak link so often, JG may want to try having 2 of our players guard Keene for part/all of the game to possibly hold down his point output and see what happens. Yeah, that leaves one of the CMU players open most of the time when they're on offense, but who knows it might work.
 
#60      
brokensaphire
Do we have a lock-down defender? Do we have anyone slightly resembling one? No? Then I think we are going to need to defend the basket like a rabid dog defending a soup bone or else it is 7-4 and a likely sub-20 win season again.
 
#61      
illiniknight
DoctorOrange said:
That's my point. At the end of the game last night we were consistently relying on the worst shot in basketball (long 2pters). Yes, we (Hill) made them, but that's not a recipe for success.
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That is Hill's bread and butter. The good thing is that Hill's 3pt attempts are up condiderably this year.
 
#62      
Newman
brokensaphire said:
Do we have a lock-down defender? Do we have anyone slightly resembling one? No? Then I think we are going to need to defend the basket like a rabid dog defending a soup bone or else it is 7-4 and a likely sub-20 win season again.
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Have any of you guys watched Central Michigan or are people just going by the ppg from two players? My god, I understand that a couple of their players have gaudy stats but look how many shots they're taking. We don't need a lock down defender to beat this team. They're a good team but they're not as good as their record indicates.
 
#63      
illiniknight
Newman said:
Have any of you guys watched Central Michigan or are people just going by the ppg from two players? My god, I understand that a couple of their players have gaudy stats but look how many shots they're taking. We don't need a lock down defender to beat this team. They're a good team but they're not as good as their record indicates.
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True. Their numbers are a bit inflated due to the high tempo they play at. This is a good offensive team but they are atrocious on the defensive end.
 
#64      
Bailey
DoctorOrange said:
Can someone please explain to me why our offense doesn't get us good 3pt shots? We have two great 3pt shooters on the team (Abrams, JCL) yet they don't seem to be able to get open looks even against weak competition. I've never been able to figure out Groce's offense, but at some point you'd think he'd want to play to our strengths.
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We're top 50 in the nation in both three % and FGM.
 
#65      
DoctorOrange
Bailey said:
We're top 50 in the nation in both three % and FGM.
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I didn't say we were a bad 3pt shooting team. I said we struggle to get good shooters open a lot of the time. And I think we go away from it too much. During the Weber era I remember us setting double screens to get Jamar Smith, Trent Meacham, Luther Head, Rich McBride, etc... all open for 3pters. I don't feel like we do much any of that. Occasionally a drive and kick, but mostly iso stuff. Maybe I'm wrong, that's just the way it appears.

Also, sometimes I hate that we'll have a lineup where 3 of the 5 players don't ever look to get their own shot. Like a lineup of Tate, Abrams, Thorne, Hill, and Finke. Only 2 of those players consistently are trying to score.
 
#66      
TriCityBurbs
Honestly wouldn't mind seeing Austin guard their little guy for stretches (no more than 10 minutes), he brings as much to the table as tate scoring wise, and was able to bring some defensive intensity last year guard Dunn and slowing down Jock in the Big Ten Tourney last year.
if we can keep their two guards under 25 each, I think we have a good shot at a 10+ point win. JCL needs to find his rhythm before the BYU game, Finke needs to get out of his slump and I think this is the game he does it.
 
#67      
FiveStar
Doctor Orange, your talk about double screens made me think for a minute. Pretty much every team in America runs a secondary break set with a double screen away for a 3. I don't remember seeing us run one of these this year. Anybody else remember or seen it?

Seems like we have some good wing options to run it for in JCL and hill.
 
#68      
WesterveltVictoryCigar
Newman said:
Have any of you guys watched Central Michigan or are people just going by the ppg from two players? My god, I understand that a couple of their players have gaudy stats but look how many shots they're taking. We don't need a lock down defender to beat this team. They're a good team but they're not as good as their record indicates.
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They're ranked above IUPUI in Pomeroy.
 
#69      
Newman
WesterveltVictoryCigar said:
They're ranked above IUPUI in Pomeroy.
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Yep but not by much. If we play as poorly on defense then sure, we might lose but I'm more concerned about teams that use their bigs to really spread the floor. I guess I wouldn't really be that surprised to see another bad defensive effort but I think we match up better with Central Michigan.
 
#70      
illiniknight
Newman said:
Yep but not by much. If we play as poorly on defense then sure, we might lose but I'm more concerned about teams that use their bigs to really spread the floor. I guess I wouldn't really be that surprised to see another bad defensive effort but I think we match up better with Central Michigan.
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+1. The teams that really give us trouble are the ones who make our bigs move on defense. Our bigs have some good qualities but other than Black they really don't move well on defense.
 
#71      
Captain Bubbles
Any chance of a Chris Kaman appearance? He is friends with Meyers. Though I doubt it, yet that would be cool if he and Meyers attended.
 
#72      
jrichisamazing
This might have been a trap game if we blew out IUPUI and beat Winthrop, but I think those 2 results have kept us focused and we come out and execute the game plan. I bet we win by double digits and the game is never really in question.

At least, that's what I hope will happen. You know what is worse than watching the Illini go back and forth with a lesser opponent down the stretch (ala Winthrop)? Needing to follow the score on twitter because the game is on BTN Plus.:mad:
 
#73      
SescIllini
Couple of things that have slowed good offensive players in the past especially small ones are. 1) Make them play defense, draw fouls on them. Abrams, TJL, and JCL need to drive. 2) Rotate fresh defenders, especially tallers ones. Jordan and JCL looked gave K Johnson some difficulty with their length. Unfortunately they only played limited time on him. 3) When you foul, make it count.
 
#74      
illiniguy24
Looking at the schedules between CMU, BYU and Mizz...you could argue CMU is just as good as the other two. They all have some bad losses on their resumé


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#75      
FollowTisdale
ChiefIllini said:
I think most of the Tate hate comes from his past three years of frustration. Looking at him this year vs Tejon in a vacuum, I dont see any reason to think Tejon deserves more minutes than Tate does. JT obviously has zero range, but if he can get to the basket once or twice a game, maybe draw a foul or two, why is he such a bad backup? Sans potential, I dont get why Tejon needs to be playing 20+ minutes a game and Tate get under 5. I'd be fine with a 10/10 split. Its when tate is playing 20+ minutes that concerns me.
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Well yea, the Tate frustration comes from watching three years of him, obviously. I've watched 3 years of bad basketball being played by him, so has Groce, and only one of us continues to put him out there in crunch time minutes to commit turnovers, kill the offensive flow, and watch his lock down defendee break him down again and again.

Tate is just not a big ten basketball player. He's not strong with the ball, the offense stalls when he has it (which is probably 60% his problem, 40% Groce's no offball movement offense), and we're only calling him a good defender because it's relative to his offense.

Having to play 4 on 5 on offense is not possible. Go watch a full game just focusing on Tate's defender when he's off ball. The defender is able to sag off of him so far that any one else driving has another defender in there way, ruining any semblance of an offense. TJL has already shown that he can drive to the hoop just as well as Tate. Tate is not a lockdown defender; quick guards have gotten past him consistently, and anyone should be able to defend a guard who doesn't have the quickness of a, say, Keon Johnson.

It's just emblematic of Groce's failings. This kid has no business playing big ten basketball outside of Schmidt minutes and even the layman can see it. Or they can't see it, because they're not at the game
 
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