pruman91
- Paducah, Ky
Love that movie...
St. Louis Cardinals 2021
- Status
Management hired him, and now they discover there are philisophical differences. Give me a break.
Not a big fan of Mo..... since when did the Cardinal way not work?
Ryllini
- Lombard
I’m neither high or low about this, that is just the what I feel happened. We have been spoiled as fans, but maybe it is time for the team to be more analytical and I don’t want to say they aren’t, because every team is to an extent. One team that comes to mind are the Rays, they are hyper mode analytics with a 60 million dollar payroll and it works, the Dodgers are crazy spenders, but seem to be pretty analytical. The Astros use garbage cans, so what do I know.
That's the Cardinal Way.
Ryllini
- Lombard
I get what you are saying, but was going back to Reyes the right way, or some other mid season head scratches? I'm projecting here, did he want to stick with say Dejong and Sosa and management wants another direction. Gould did an article on the hiring of Shildt and book from Kissell he keeps and states he is an organizational man. Did he change or is the organization changing? Is there truth to Shannon's words about the team going for sale?
So many questions. I personally don't feel the man did anything to lose his job, but as it sits right now, I'm not losing sleep over it either. I hope we arent changing to where we head to an abyss and there is no way out. To where we give up on season to reload over a 4 year span. You can have the "Cardinal Way", but still be analytically driven. The fundamental, extra attention to detail, the never say die attitude.
Something had to happen that wasn't pleasant in their meeting today for it to go down like this. Very strange.
Move doesn't surprise me to be honest. My guess is they probably would have let him go after the end of the season had they not had the 17 game winning streak. Some reporting out there that the breaking point for the "philosophical differences" may have had to do with Shildt bringing in Reyes in the 9th of the wild card game. There's also some discussion about Shildt not being as willing to go by analytics in certain situations (which has been brought up on here already).
As far as replacements, Derrick Goold brought up names currently on the coaching staff like Stubby Clapp and Oli Marmol as well as former Cardinal Skip Schumaker who was an associate manager with the Padres the past two seasons.
As far as replacements, Derrick Goold brought up names currently on the coaching staff like Stubby Clapp and Oli Marmol as well as former Cardinal Skip Schumaker who was an associate manager with the Padres the past two seasons.
Very strange...I don't think we see things too different . I like the fact even though we had no healthy pitching forever we hung in as a team, I like that we had some new talent as starters, O'Neil, Sosa, Edmonds, I also like that we had record winning streak to make the playoffs....as far as Mo...he's done fine in his capacity, maybe not the Carpenter contract.....have you seen him in clubhouse celebration? He's a stiff suit that looked at some players during one like he was going to trade them because he got a little wet, obviously not a team player, lol. So I don't think Schild lost the team or anything...just wondering whose available that's better?
pruman91
- Paducah, Ky
Wonder if Nolan A. has any thoughts about his decision to not opt out ?...Just a rambling thought that just popped into my feeble brain tonite.....
The fact's that Schildt made the playoffs all 3 seasons and was the manager of the longest winning streak in franchise history , then fired 10 days (?) after the season ends is strange , but it tells me something was behind the scene's wrong for a while , especially not waiting until after the world series to do it.......
I hadn't heard any rumblings about the team being for sale , so that surprises me also..........I was melancholy about the birds most of the season then excited during the streak and making the playoffs , then the sudden end of it all....rollercoaster ride for sure...............
The fact's that Schildt made the playoffs all 3 seasons and was the manager of the longest winning streak in franchise history , then fired 10 days (?) after the season ends is strange , but it tells me something was behind the scene's wrong for a while , especially not waiting until after the world series to do it.......
I hadn't heard any rumblings about the team being for sale , so that surprises me also..........I was melancholy about the birds most of the season then excited during the streak and making the playoffs , then the sudden end of it all....rollercoaster ride for sure...............
pruman91
- Paducah, Ky
Just read an article that threw out the possibility of La Russa reunion with the birds.................WOW............
With the news that the St. Louis Cardinals have fired manager Mike Shildt, could a reunion be in the works with Tony La Russa?
Now that Mike Shildt is out as the manager of the St. Louis Cardinals, the front office isn't going to waste any time in finding a suitable replacement. With all the talent this team has, there's simply no reason for them not to be making major noise in the postseason.
-------------------------------------------------------
Hot Stove League already stoked up and it's only october ......lol
With the news that the St. Louis Cardinals have fired manager Mike Shildt, could a reunion be in the works with Tony La Russa?
Now that Mike Shildt is out as the manager of the St. Louis Cardinals, the front office isn't going to waste any time in finding a suitable replacement. With all the talent this team has, there's simply no reason for them not to be making major noise in the postseason.
With Mike Shildt fired, could Tony La Russa return to Cardinals?
While folks are hoping for the Cardinals to trade for La Russa, it's looking like the veteran skipper will be returning to the Windy City next campaign. According to MLB insider Bob Nightengale, La Russa is all set to be back in the dugout and a move to St. Louis won't be going down.-------------------------------------------------------
Hot Stove League already stoked up and it's only october ......lol
Maybe I'm alone here but honestly I'm glad. IMO Schildt had more to do with where the Cardinals were after the All-Star break than he did with the 17-game streak. Not a lot a manager can do to make hitters start seeing the ball better. Before our bats came alive we blew a lot of close games on bad decisions, just like the Reyes call in the playoff game. I think Matheny is a good parallel. He inherited a good team that did well but would have done better under a more competent manager. Maybe I'm being a little too optimistic here, but perhaps this is Mo seeing the same thing and not wanting to re-live the mistakes he made with Matheny.
I met Mo once. He came to speak to a class I was taking on negotiations. This was right around the time Pujols' contract was wrapping up and I asked him about it. To his credit he was very candid about the situation, and I came out pretty confident Pujols would not be back. I think he even trotted out a stat that no team devoting more than 1/4 of its payroll on one player had ever won the WS or something, so it wasn't very subtle. That was a ballsy move, not offering the farm to keep Pujols, who was a god in St. Louis at the time. It was also undeniably the right move. Imagine if we'd been dragging around that Pujols contract the last decade. No Arenado. No Goldy. Probably would have had to part ways with Yadi and Waino years ago.
Mo has made some bad calls, but I feel like he's done OK on the big stuff, and I think ownership is a bit reluctant to spend, which makes his job harder.
MO is responsible for the 2 managers since La Russa. Is the light bulb suddenly going to come on with management?
After two hires without MLB managing experience I'm hoping for an experienced manager. I will probably be let down.
I do think Shildt gave us some real head scratchers but Mo repeatedly said it had nothing to do with 2021 season. I’ll take him at his word.
I think the first order of business for this off season would be affirming the 2022 staff. My hunch is Shildt wanted Alberts gone and Mo didn’t.
I think the first order of business for this off season would be affirming the 2022 staff. My hunch is Shildt wanted Alberts gone and Mo didn’t.
Last edited:
I wasn’t ever all in on Shildt but I’m really not a Mo fan at all. I think this firing just weakens the power of our next manager.
pruman91
- Paducah, Ky
Cardinals make stunning move, fire manager Shildt due to ‘philosophical difference’
Three weeks after a record 17-game winning streak, Shildt "floored" by dismissal from pro organization who groomed and inspired him.
An 18-year member of the organization who rose through the ranks with a reverence for the Cardinals’ history and their fundamental approach to playing the game, Mike Shildt was fired abruptly Thursday, less than three weeks after his team wrote itself into that storied history with a record 17-game winning streak.
The reason given for his dismissal: “Philosophical difference.”
Within the past week after meetings held last Friday “things came to a head,” president of baseball operations John Mozeliak said, and prompted his front office to determine conflicting views could not be mended and a new manager desired. Mozeliak phoned Shildt on Thursday to notify him of his dismissal. Sources described Shildt as “floored” by the unexpected call. Members of the team and coaching staff described themselves as “stunned” and “totally caught off guard.” Mozeliak used the words “very shocked” to describe the reaction by Shildt, whom he hired as a scout in 2003.
--------------------------------------------------------
more info coming out........................
difference was NOT about hitting coach , MO saying not the SOLE reason for change in manager
one week ago team officials were discussing an extension for Shildt , MO stated conversations about it did NOT get very far
Skip Schumaker mentioned as a possible candidate for manager's position
I'm still stunned at the decision and moreso the timing of it....
pruman91
- Paducah, Ky
BenFred: Cardinals’ ‘philosophical’ reasons for firing Shildt sound a lot more like manager wound up on wrong side of Mozeliak
What do you think George Kissell would think about Shildt being fired by the Cardinals for so-called philosophical differences?
A dysfunctional day for the Cardinals ended with a lot of lingering confusion and one reminder made quite clear.
Former manager Mike Shildt learned the hard way.
The future manager, whether it’s Oliver Marmol, Stubby Clapp, Skip Schumaker, Matt Holliday, Carlos Beltran or some other surprise candidate, better understand it before he says yes to the job.
Stay on the right side of president of baseball operations John Mozeliak, or you won’t be around for long.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
that about sums it up............
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And yet Shildt is now looking for a new gig, preparing to be swooped up by the Padres or some other smart club. The reason, we were told time and time again Thursday, was not the win-loss record. The reason had nothing to do with how Shildt managed the team in 2021, either, we were told.
There was some beef between Mozeliak and Shildt, and the beef for some reason boiled over when focusing on the 2021 season turned into talk about 2022 and beyond. The end result has the Cardinals looking for another manager. One who doesn’t stray from Mozeliak’s page.
Some of this was Albert-related. Shildt was not as big of a believer in the hitting coach’s philosophy as the front office. Mozeliak has been Albert’s biggest defender since day one.
The next manager of the Cardinals must know that the Cardinals’ collective “we” almost always means Mozeliak. He gave Shildt his chance. Then he ended it. The president of baseball operations is the hand that steers the wheel. Forget that or begin to challenge it, and tracks will wind up on your back.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the last paragraph needs no clarification......pretty straightforward words from a Cardinals beat reporter.........
I don’t think the Cardinals front office is driven by advanced metrics. If they were, Waino would not have been kept after 2019 and Yadi cut loose after this year. I know some will see it as blasphemous but it is time to move on from an all time great just like LaRussa did from Ozzie Smith.
The front office and Dewitt are driven to make money and it is very possible Shildt wanted a better roster to compete with teams like the Dodgers. A conversation like that might have gotten personal really quickly. It would be fatal to attack how Mo and his team build a roster.
Shildt teams out performed their PECOTA projections. That says he was better than his roster.
The front office and Dewitt are driven to make money and it is very possible Shildt wanted a better roster to compete with teams like the Dodgers. A conversation like that might have gotten personal really quickly. It would be fatal to attack how Mo and his team build a roster.
Shildt teams out performed their PECOTA projections. That says he was better than his roster.
Last edited:
I think the front office uses advanced metrics plenty, just not exclusively. There is business value in keeping Yadi as a Cardinal for the remainder of his career. His retirement tour will keep fans in the stands this season, and it's only costing $10 million. More than he's worth on baseball grounds alone, sure, but he's going to bring in additional revenue and keep fans happy. EDIT: Additionally the Cards' likely cather of the future, Ivan Herrera, isn't ready yet.
Wainwright, at $8 million for 2021, was actually decent value for a mid to back end of the rotation arm. Then he turned out to have ace stuff left which was an added bonus.
I don't buy that Shildt wanted upgrades and Mo didn't. My understanding is that Shildt is very much a loyalty kind of guy. I have a hard time believing he'd actively advocate to replace one of his guys. While Dewitt does seem to want to avoid spending what needs to be spent, I get the sense that Mo really does want to win. If the owner doesn't give him the money, there's not a ton he can do about it. But he still managed to bring in Goldy and Arenado.
As for PECOTA, these projections are nice but far from perfect. For playoff teams this year, in addition to missing on us, PECOTA projected the White Sox to finish 3rd in their division, the Braves, Giants and Red Sox to finish 4th. It gave the Twins a 61% chance to win the division. And they placed dead last. It gave the Mets a 77% chance to win the division and projected them at 96 wins. They won 77. Yankees were given an 81% chance to win the division, they finished 3rd. I just wouldn't read that much into these projections and certainly wouldn't use them to judge managerial performance.
Last edited:
I think things got heated over some thing. My opinion is that it takes insubordination of some type to warrant calling the league to allow a hastily called press conference on the day of game 5 Dodgers-Giants. Mo got butt hurt over more than do we play small ball or play launch angle.
Metrics also would have had Carp DFA’d at some point this season and certainly not on the wild card roster. I agree we use metrics but only when it fits what Mo wants to do.
- Status