St. Louis Cardinals 2022
How would you all feel about the Cardinals dangling Gorman out there as a trade chip to get Soto? Derrick Goold and Jeff Jones are both reporting that they've put him on the table as a possible trade piece.
I'm ok with it. I like Gorman as much as the next guy, but of the big 4 young batters of Walker, Winn, Carlson and Gorman I think Gorman may have the least upside. I've seen Dan Uggla mentioned as a comp for Gorman and think it's a decent one. That's no insult. Uggla was a 3x all star who hit 30+ homers for 5 straight seasons, and whose career numbers would look a lot better if he hadn't been a late debut (26 yr old rookie). But if you have the option of landing Pujols or someone of that caliber at the age of 23, would including Uggla in the trade really be a deal breaker for you?
IlliniFan85
- Colorado Springs, CO
Yankees Acquire Andrew Benintendi From Royals
Seems 1st big trade happened. Unless I am forgetting 1. Which is possible, I forget things all the time now.
Seems 1st big trade happened. Unless I am forgetting 1. Which is possible, I forget things all the time now.
It is the first big trade of the upcoming deadline, yeah. The three prospects the Royals got are still in A ball at this point.
pruman91
- Paducah, Ky
Adam Wainwright saw chance for 'great pitcher' to steady Cardinals. He knew just the guy.
Veteran starter and Pujols carry Cardinals to 6-1 victory, split series in Toronto. Says Wainwright: He could 'prove that I still had what it takes to be a great pitcher
Derrick Goold
TORONTO — With the only big-league team he’s known down big on the scoreboard, tumbling down in the standings, and down a few players from the roster, Adam Wainwright could empathize coming off a sour start that he didn’t downplay, calling it “embarrassing.”
The tilting Cardinals had just lost 10-3 to the Blue Jays. They lost the third of four games out of the break, and they were going to be without their best two hitters for another day in what two teammates independently called “a real tough week.” Those were the things on Wainwright’s mind as he left Rogers Centre on Tuesday, the night before his start. They sharpened his mind as he watched video into the midnight hours.
The Cardinals had an obvious need.
Wainwright had a familiar purpose.
“I went into it looking at it as a great opportunity to prove that I still had what it takes to be a great pitcher in this game,” Wainwright said. “Great pitcher. Great team over there. Great offense. There was a lot of stuff I went into with today for motivation. This was awesome. This is what I want as a competitor.”
At one of the most difficult points of this season, the Cardinals turned again to the players who have lifted them through so many seasons. Wainwright, 40, and his frigid curveball doused the hottest lineup in baseball through seven exceptional innings Wednesday. He struck out eight. Albert Pujols singled, doubled, surpassed Rogers Hornsby on the all-time Cardinals hits list, and homered in his first three at-bats to drive the Cardinals to a 6-1 victory against Toronto.
I think the bigger question is are you okay with losing Gorman AND Carlson.
I hear lots of people saying one or the other but the Nats might be demanding both.
And I think to be okay with that you need to have a good amount of confidence in Bader and O'Neil. I'm still not sold on either. Their injuries this year really hurt because IMO this was their their year to solidify themselves as part of long term plans.
pruman91
- Paducah, Ky
agree 1000000000000000000000000000000 %............
At least 5 players , consisting of highly rated prospects or already major league players mix , for 2 1/2 years of Soto is a hard pass for me ..........And to take on an additional $ 60 million contract in Corbin .......Hard Pass..........................and to break the bank for one player , hard pass...............
To many things could go wrong with a deal like this .....I don't see the value of spending excessive $$ on one player and bankrupt the farm system in the short or long term being beneficial to the team or the fans......
As always , JMHO.............................
Just your daily reminder that prospects are a crap shoot:
If the Cards had gotten Mike Trout for 5 of those guys, would that have been a mistake?
And I know people get hung up on Carlson, and I agree he's great. But he's not a sure thing and has a long way to go to be a star. His most similar player through age 22 per baseball reference is Victor Robles, which I think serves as a cautionany tale. Remember how good Robles looked his first couple seasons?
As far as $$$, the Cards can pay Corbin for a couple years, extend Soto, sign FA pitching, and still have a payroll ranked at or lower than their position in the MLB revenue or franchise value rankings.
I think the biggest reason I am so in favor of getting Soto is it is a move that signals commitment to putting out a contender. If the Cardinals don't make this move, here is how it's going to play out: We're going to sign cheap pitching and band aids for any needs and promote from within for the rest, and continue to be a good, not great, team while the Dodgers and Braves and Padres and Mets eat our lunch in the playoffs. Getting Soto would be like when the Dodgers traded 3 top prospects for Mookie Betts. I guarantee Dodgers fans aren't wringimg their hands about Alex Verdugo and Jeter Downs. And if we can accomplish the Soto trade without sending our top prospect (Walker)? That's a coup. So many people complain about the front office doing nothing, but this is what doing something looks like.
Rant over. I do respect all your opinions though I disagree in this instance.
pruman91
- Paducah, Ky
I understood your position many posts ago........Why can't you understand mine ??...............................
Fair enough .........I guess I'm old school and what other teams do with their prospects is not a concern of mine.......
Either way , we will see what transpires in the next few days ......carry on .................
I understand your position, and specifically stated I respect your opinion as well as those of others on this thread. All the opinions on this matter have been stated days, if not weeks, ago. Yet I was responding to your post from today, so clearly this is still a subject of discussion. But if you just want an environment where everyone agrees and posts about how obvious it is that your position is correct, and there is no debate, then fine. Believe it or not, I'm not trying to ruffle feathers, I just enjoy friendly discussion and debate. Since it doesn't appear it is being received in that spirit, I will no longer post on the subject
Offered without comment: Looks like DeJong is getting called back up.
... well whatever happens at the trade deadline this year, I think it's very interesting that the Cardinals are starting a three game series against Soto and the Nats tonight with Mikolas on the mound. I'm sure everyone remembers in the 2019 playoffs when Mikolas returned Soto's crotch grab "all in good fun" after retiring him with the bases loaded.
Personally, I would love the Cardinals' front office to swing big at the trade deadline this year if for no other reason than signal they're not satisfied with a wildcard and being eliminated in the first round of the playoffs. Unfortunately, I don't think they will.
Personally, I would love the Cardinals' front office to swing big at the trade deadline this year if for no other reason than signal they're not satisfied with a wildcard and being eliminated in the first round of the playoffs. Unfortunately, I don't think they will.
What a freaking boost it would be if DeJong came up and started raking again.
Don't know what the corresponding roster move will be but if he takes Sosa's role that would be a huge improvement. Sosa's OPS+ has been 49 this season. Sosa's out of minor league options so he either needs to be retained on the MLB roster, DFA'd, or traded.
pruman91
- Paducah, Ky
BenFred: Side effect of Juan Soto Madness appears to be undervaluing Dylan Carlson
Wouldn't a team leaning into win-now mode want the two outfielders playing together?
Ben Frederickson
At the risk of sounding like someone who does not understand the awesomeness of Juan Soto — I do, I promise — this feels like a good time to remind folks that Cardinals outfielder Dylan Carlson is producing in the present while also providing plenty of reasons for future optimism.
Nothing can make a fan base forget what it has in hand like the allure of a player it really, really wants.
The many calls from Cardinal Nation for Soto are understandable. He’s one of baseball’s best. He’s just 23 years old. A team that pays what is said to be a monstrous asking price will get three shots at winning a World Series championship with him if the deal goes down before Tuesday’s trade deadline. There’s a compelling argument to be made for any competitive club to look long and hard at what it would take to acquire a generational talent when one becomes available. Even if a deal depletes the top shelf of a farm system, prospects are about potential until proven otherwise, and potential and proven are very different things.
Which is why I have a hard time understanding why so many trade-deadline hypothesizers are rushing to send Carlson to Washington.
It must be a side effect of Soto Madness.
The point of making a Soto-type sonic boom at the deadline would be to act on the idea that he can be a rocket booster for three legitimate swings at a championship. While the notion of extending him would be great and could be pursued by an acquiring club, banking on a Scott Boras client not reaching free agency when he could be in line for a record deal is a risky bet. The team that gets Soto — if any team gets Soto before the deadline, that is — can only really count on two and a half seasons with him. Three postseasons. The rest? Unknown.
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Carlson being talked about being part of a trade for Soto has me shaking my head , along with other parts being discussed............
I agree with this reporter's premise ...............JMHO
pruman91
- Paducah, Ky
Cardinals can strike at the deadline to upgrade starting rotation, not patch it
Also: Shortstop DeJong returns from minors, will join team in Washington, sources say, as team positions roster for moves before Tuesday's deadline.
Derrick Goold
WASHINGTON — The schedule allows the Cardinals to downsize to a four-man rotation for the next week as they buy time to figure out who will be their fifth starter.
The calendar indicates they’ll have that answer by Tuesday.
The Cardinals’ adjustment to their rotation came, not coincidentally, as the trade deadline approached and increased the urgency they had to add at least a starting pitcher.
“The off day allows us to get away with it,” manager Oliver Marmol said.
With Dakota Hudson’s return from the injured list scheduled for Saturday and an off day Monday, the Cardinals do not need a fifth starter until next weekend at Busch Stadium against the Yankees. The Cardinals briefly considered a bullpen start Friday to get Miles Mikolas another day of rest but opted against it. A reinforcement, they hope, is on the way.
Their goal is to have a new addition to debut within a week, and their search has run the spectrum from one of the market’s top available talents, Oakland right-hander Frankie Montas, to a handful of starters they believe they can get improved performance from.
John Mozeliak, president of baseball operations, and his baseball operations think tank will converge at the team hotel outside of Washington for the weekend and the frenetic runup to Tuesday’s deadline.
Related moves were already afoot.
Former All-Star Paul DeJong will join the team at Nationals Park and could be activated over the weekend, sources said Thursday evening.
DeJong was scratched from the Class AAA Memphis lineup shortly before first pitch. The Post-Dispatch reported Wednesday night DeJong’s potential promotion after three homers in three games and his role in the coming days. The Cardinals have had ongoing trade talks about Edmundo Sosa with an AL team in need of a backup shortstop. Other clubs have expressed interest for younger middle infielders, like rookie Nolan Gorman, as the Cardinals shop for a starter.
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The Cardinals most pressing issue is pitching ....................IMO , their next most pressing issue is catching , as Knizner is not the answer as far as a starting catcher....Molina got hit by a pitch in his rehab last night and might not be ready to rejoin the team as was projected ....the backup catcher we just got isn't much and Herrera needs more AAA experience .......
Don't get me wrong , i would love to have Soto , but more pitching and a reliable hitting catcher seem more meets the needs of the Cardinals this year and into the future...........................If we spend top `100 prospects I would hope it's for more pitchers and a top notch catcher ..........JMHO
When St Louis acquired Nomar I mentioned Pete Rose laughed and called Von Hayes "Ol 5 for 1" after the Philies traded 5 players to Cleveland for him. His 9 year WAR was a modest 27 considering he was expected to be closer to 50 over that same time. (I understand WAR was not a thing back then.) The other 5 players were a combined 20 from then to the end of their careers. Except for Julio Franco who played for 11 years after Cleveland.
The players St Louis gave up to get McGwire, Holliday and others didn't pan out either. While I am always nervous about trading good prospects to elite players it tends to work out.
Don't give up Juicy Juice. We need to hear comments from both sides of an issue. It's the value of the board. I am torn. Greatly torn over this. Funny thing is I don't believe Mo & Co will pull the trigger so this talk is just fans and media noise.
I am really surprised by Ben's position. Of all the media covering the Cards, I would have thought that he would be the loudest advocate to make the move.BenFred: Side effect of Juan Soto Madness appears to be undervaluing Dylan Carlson
Wouldn't a team leaning into win-now mode want the two outfielders playing together?www.stltoday.com
Ben Frederickson
At the risk of sounding like someone who does not understand the awesomeness of Juan Soto — I do, I promise — this feels like a good time to remind folks that Cardinals outfielder Dylan Carlson is producing in the present while also providing plenty of reasons for future optimism.
Nothing can make a fan base forget what it has in hand like the allure of a player it really, really wants.
The many calls from Cardinal Nation for Soto are understandable. He’s one of baseball’s best. He’s just 23 years old. A team that pays what is said to be a monstrous asking price will get three shots at winning a World Series championship with him if the deal goes down before Tuesday’s trade deadline. There’s a compelling argument to be made for any competitive club to look long and hard at what it would take to acquire a generational talent when one becomes available. Even if a deal depletes the top shelf of a farm system, prospects are about potential until proven otherwise, and potential and proven are very different things.
Which is why I have a hard time understanding why so many trade-deadline hypothesizers are rushing to send Carlson to Washington.
It must be a side effect of Soto Madness.
The point of making a Soto-type sonic boom at the deadline would be to act on the idea that he can be a rocket booster for three legitimate swings at a championship. While the notion of extending him would be great and could be pursued by an acquiring club, banking on a Scott Boras client not reaching free agency when he could be in line for a record deal is a risky bet. The team that gets Soto — if any team gets Soto before the deadline, that is — can only really count on two and a half seasons with him. Three postseasons. The rest? Unknown.
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Carlson being talked about being part of a trade for Soto has me shaking my head , along with other parts being discussed............
I agree with this reporter's premise ...............JMHO
Yeah, I mean if it didn't make you nervous at all, it'd be a terrible deal for the other side. You have to give something up to get something.
I was reading about the Miguel Cabrera trade today. At the time a lot of people thought the Tigers gave up a ridiculous haul in prospects to get him. Miggy proceeded to put up over 68 WAR playing for the Tigers while the 6 prospects they gave up combined for just under 25 WAR for their entire careers.
Interesting side note, the Cardinals had interest but were unwilling to give up Colby Rasmus to make the deal.
Which brings me to something I noticed that was really surprising to me:
Here's Carlson' BA/OBP/SLG/OPS/OPS+ from this season so far:
And here are the corresponding stats from 2010 Colby Rasmus, also age 23 at the time:
Rasmus only had one more season as good as that one, in 2013 with the Blue Jays, and played his last season in 2018 at the age of 31.
Edit: Here's that Miggy article for anyone interested
Should your MLB team gut its farm system for Juan Soto? The Miguel Cabrera trade provides some perspective
Hindsight is 20/20. Let's use it to look at a potential Juan Soto trade.
IlliniwekKDR
- Colorado Springs, CO
I still credit Colby Rasmus with winning us that '11 title by being trade bait for a bunch of pitchers that got us through the postseason. So it's a good thing we held onto him!Yeah, I mean if it didn't make you nervous at all, it'd be a terrible deal for the other side. You have to give something up to get something.
I was reading about the Miguel Cabrera trade today. At the time a lot of people thought the Tigers gave up a ridiculous haul in prospects to get him. Miggy proceeded to put up over 68 WAR playing for the Tigers while the 6 prospects they gave up combined for just under 25 WAR for their entire careers.
Interesting side note, the Cardinals had interest but were unwilling to give up Colby Rasmus to make the deal.
Which brings me to something I noticed that was really surprising to me:
Here's Carlson' BA/OBP/SLG/OPS/OPS+ from this season so far:
View attachment 19032
And here are the corresponding stats from 2010 Colby Rasmus, also age 23 at the time:
View attachment 19034
Rasmus only had one more season as good as that one, in 2013 with the Blue Jays, and played his last season in 2018 at the age of 31.
Edit: Here's that Miggy article for anyone interested
Should your MLB team gut its farm system for Juan Soto? The Miguel Cabrera trade provides some perspective
Hindsight is 20/20. Let's use it to look at a potential Juan Soto trade.ca.sports.yahoo.com
Maybe! But also who know what we could have accomplished with Pujols and Miggy on the same team from 2007-2011!
It's of course impossible to say what would have happened in an alternate world where we trade for Miggy, especially since we never apparently got past Colby onto the other parts of any proposed package. But I 100% agree trading away Rasmus was worth it for that 2011 run (and the most exciting WS I've ever seen).
As a Cubs fan, I want to see you all hold onto those prospects and let Soto go elsewhere. If he’s not coming to Wrigley (and he’s not - the fact that the Cubs are completely absent from the Soto talks is as sure a sign as any that they’re lying through their teeth about wanting to be competitive in the next couple years), I want him as far away from the NL Central as possible.
I think the Nats are insane for trading him in the first place and I think any team that can get him should give up the farm to get him.
His BR similarity score top 10 through age 22 are 7 HoFers or certain future HoFers - Trout, F. Robinson, Cabrera, Mantle, Aaron, Cepeda, and Griffey Jr, two active players having near HoF careers and a good chance of eventually getting there - Harper and Stanton, and Tony Canigliaro who was tragically beaned at age 22 and never fully recovered.
I guess Canigliaro shows that nothing is a sure thing, but absent a horrible fluke injury like that, Soto is as sure a thing as any talent in baseball has been in ages.
I think the Nats are insane for trading him in the first place and I think any team that can get him should give up the farm to get him.
His BR similarity score top 10 through age 22 are 7 HoFers or certain future HoFers - Trout, F. Robinson, Cabrera, Mantle, Aaron, Cepeda, and Griffey Jr, two active players having near HoF careers and a good chance of eventually getting there - Harper and Stanton, and Tony Canigliaro who was tragically beaned at age 22 and never fully recovered.
I guess Canigliaro shows that nothing is a sure thing, but absent a horrible fluke injury like that, Soto is as sure a thing as any talent in baseball has been in ages.
Cardinals have been fielding trade calls on Sosa so it is a possibility. Donovan has basically taken his role as the utility infielder though Donovan has a better bat.