Juice you did a better job of expressing my frustration. Kudos to you.
St. Louis Cardinals 2022
Juice you did a better job of expressing my frustration. Kudos to you.
Still not sure how I feel about this trade. Judging mainly by playoffs, where our OF was a mess and Monty didn't start a game, I think it didn't turn out great for this season. Yankees are getting more playoff contribution from Bader than they would've from Monty.
pruman91
- Paducah, Ky
Outlier......................I'm glad we got Monty........Bader is great defensively and I loved his enthusiasm , but doubt he hits enough to validate the trade as a win for the yankees..........................I'm excited to have Monty signed for next year and hope we sign Quintana also.......Best Cardinals pitcher since the All Star break..........
JMHO
Sure, he's not gonna be a star hitter but elite defense + elite baserunning + average bat provides plenty value. He also hit really well last season so no reason to think he can't get back to that.
Monty had a great stretch right after we signed him but also gave up 15 earned runs in his last 4 starts right before the playoffs, which made him unstartable in the playoffs.
Like I said, I'm torn. If TON had stayed healthy, or if Carlson's bat hadn't gone completely MIA, I probably feel a lot better about the trade. The fact that DeLuzio made the playoff roster kinda shows how bad our OF depth was by thst point. Strictly speaking of the series against the Phillies, Bader would've been more valuable to have.
NEIlliniFan
- No longer in New England
Judging the trade mainly by the playoffs is a tad myopic.
Both teams made that trade primarily for the playoffs. Why wouldn't you use that as a barometer?
pruman91
- Paducah, Ky
3 game validation term vs numerous games since the trade deadline........................seems shortsighted and fitting a specific agenda......
I would think it would take 2-3 YEARS before enough stats found to make a worthy trade analysis......But that's just me ......
JMHO
NEIlliniFan
- No longer in New England
Trades are judged both short- and long-term. Every one of them is done to try and improve their team, whether it's to shore up a perceived on-field weakness, dump salary, addition by subtraction, etc.
Short-term it could well be said Atlanta won the trade for JD Drew. After all, the most important long-term contributor for the BOTB was some skinny minor league hurler named Wainwright.
The fact that a starter didn't pitch either game of St Louis' patheticly short postseason means very little to me. Monty didn't get a postseason start because the 9th inning of game 1 was horribly mismanaged and the offense didn't show up in game 2. We'll never know what Monty might have done.
I don't choose to assign winner/loser designations based on Bader going yard in one postseason game.
Short-term it could well be said Atlanta won the trade for JD Drew. After all, the most important long-term contributor for the BOTB was some skinny minor league hurler named Wainwright.
The fact that a starter didn't pitch either game of St Louis' patheticly short postseason means very little to me. Monty didn't get a postseason start because the 9th inning of game 1 was horribly mismanaged and the offense didn't show up in game 2. We'll never know what Monty might have done.
I don't choose to assign winner/loser designations based on Bader going yard in one postseason game.
That's fair. On the other hand these trade deadline deals are usually to fill short term needs and goals, particularly the ones that are not blockbuster trades. And both these players are free agents after next season so there's a good chance you don't even get a 2-3 year window of return to evaluate.
I also read a lot of people proclaim this trade a victory after like 3 starts from Monty so it's not uncommon for trades to be evaluated at various points after the trade. I agree we will have a lot more data to evaluate after each player gets a fill season with their new team and I hope Monty goes absolutely nuts and puts this one to bed.
That's kind of an apples and oranges comparison though. The JD Drew trade was clearly not meant to have any short term value for the Cardinals. It's rare for a trade to be meant to improve both teams short term. But this one 100% was meant to help both teams compete this season. Both these players are free agents after next season, neither is a prospect. The thinking on both sides was in regards to depth issues on the current squads. This isn't a trade with significant long-term implications.
And Monty wasn't going to start a single game in the playoffs. If you watched his last 4 or 5 outings that was obvious. Flaherty would've pitched game 3, which is why he never came in out of the pen.
pruman91
- Paducah, Ky
I doubt the cardinals make the bader-Monty trade if Monty was going to be UFA after this season.......
hey , I'm glad Bader hit the HR and hope he has a great career with the yankees....being close to home is beneficial , I'm sure.......
Monty gives the cardinals what they needed ......a lefty with a penchant to eat innings and , guess what , he's also very good ......His drop off
in performance at the end of the season does NOT worry me at all......................If i were the yankees I would still be worrying about Bader foot problems and if he hits consistently enough to be an everyday CF'er.....................
the cardinals have enough OF depth to alleviate any concerns I have right now........Jordan Walker COULD be the solution to any issues and IF and only IF TON can ever stay healthy enough to duplicate his 34 HR season then the OF is covered with Noot ,Garcia , Burleson etc in the mix..........
I am a lot more concerned about the catching position and a # 1-2 starter than anything else.......Doubt the FO goes big time on a FA SS also....
pruman91
- Paducah, Ky
What ??????.....Are you serious ???....................I seem to remember the Cardinals got a starter ( Jason Marquis ) , a reliever ( Ray King ) and a top prospect
( Waino )...................I haven't looked it up , just going on limited memory banks........lol.................
Maybe any was a little strong. But Waino, a player still a couple years away from the majors, was clearly the main piece of the return (he was the Braves' top prospect). Unless I'm missing some detail here, there's absolutely nothing like that in the Bader/Monty trade. I mean, Marquis was coming off a 5.53 ERA, negative WAR season. Are you suggesting he was the reason we dealt Drew???
NEIlliniFan
- No longer in New England
You remember correctly, pru.
(If pitching stats were solely for the first half of the season, Marquis would be in the HOF.)
pruman91
- Paducah, Ky
This is another example of smoking weed does NOT affect your short or long term memory..................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
Who am I , and what am I doing here ??????.........bonus points if anyone remembers who uttered this phrase................
Ok, am I to understand what is being argued here is that the 2003 offseason, the Cardinals traded a very good outfielder (would have been the best one on this year's team) for a below replacement pitcher, a decent reliever, and a prospect who wouldn't pitch until the 2005 season (only for 2 innings), with the intention that these three players would improve the team's odds of success in the 2004 season ("short term")?
[And yes, I know that Marquis pitched well in 2004 and the team won a ton of games. 1. I doubt the FO knew Marquis would have literally the best season of his career, and 2. There were plenty of other factors in the team's performance. Namely, Rolen and Edmonds had the best seasons of their careers at the exact same time (as did Tony freakin' Womack who was good for 3.3 WAR despite having a career WAR of only 2.5!!!), and Pujols had one of his best]
This trade was one clearly aimed at the present for one team (Braves) and future for the other (Cardinals). Drew's contract was expiring after one more season and the Cards liked Waino's potential. Jocketty has said the key to this trade was Waino, who was the Braves' #1 prospect, and still in AA.
Going back to the original point, assessing a trade like this,, where a major piece is two seasons away from contributing, obviously requires a longer view. A trade for two established players with less than 1.5 years left in the current deals, who're so obviously being brought in to fill holes on teams in contention in the current season, is a different kind of assessment. And like I said multiple times, I'm still on the fence on this trade. It's just pretty obvious to me our OF wasn't as deep as we thought it was when the trade was made.
[And yes, I know that Marquis pitched well in 2004 and the team won a ton of games. 1. I doubt the FO knew Marquis would have literally the best season of his career, and 2. There were plenty of other factors in the team's performance. Namely, Rolen and Edmonds had the best seasons of their careers at the exact same time (as did Tony freakin' Womack who was good for 3.3 WAR despite having a career WAR of only 2.5!!!), and Pujols had one of his best]
This trade was one clearly aimed at the present for one team (Braves) and future for the other (Cardinals). Drew's contract was expiring after one more season and the Cards liked Waino's potential. Jocketty has said the key to this trade was Waino, who was the Braves' #1 prospect, and still in AA.
Going back to the original point, assessing a trade like this,, where a major piece is two seasons away from contributing, obviously requires a longer view. A trade for two established players with less than 1.5 years left in the current deals, who're so obviously being brought in to fill holes on teams in contention in the current season, is a different kind of assessment. And like I said multiple times, I'm still on the fence on this trade. It's just pretty obvious to me our OF wasn't as deep as we thought it was when the trade was made.
Good twitter thread about the prospective budget and free agency expectations, going back to the earlier discussion:
We don't need to add payroll to make this team more succesful. We usually are around the top 10 area in spending give or take a few spots and tend to play around the same level. I actually liked that the Cardinals played some young guys this season with the mix of veterans they had on the roster. Mo has made some great trades and at the same time some questionable signings/re-signings and in general some guys just get hurt. Just looking at the mix of top 10 or so guys paid on the roster and guys like Molina, Matz, DeJong and Flaherty accounted for around $30M alone. Half hurt and other half underperform. I have no problem paying Molina as know this was his last hurrah. Wainwright has been good and don't mind the one year contracts. Cardinals don't mind paying short term contracts at bigger amounts cause they can wipe it off the books quickly. We don't need a superstar but do need to upgrade some positions. Mo has built a playoff contention team but not as much of a championship team. Hope we can add some talent to the likes of Goldschmidt and Arenado while they are still in prime and productive.
Not a huge fan of Baseball Trade Values some really stupid combinations work due purely to contract $$$. Even if neither team is up against the luxury tax.
That said, they have some that are interesting. Dump cash for another bad contract (gaining 9 mil) and a top 100 prospect?
Matz: 35 million over next 3 years
DeJong: 9.1 mil plus 2 mil buyout, 11.1 mil total.
46.1 mil total
Madison Baumgartener 23 mil & 14 mil
Blake Walston 21 year old LHP top 100 prospect
37 million total
That said, they have some that are interesting. Dump cash for another bad contract (gaining 9 mil) and a top 100 prospect?
Matz: 35 million over next 3 years
DeJong: 9.1 mil plus 2 mil buyout, 11.1 mil total.
46.1 mil total
Madison Baumgartener 23 mil & 14 mil
Blake Walston 21 year old LHP top 100 prospect
37 million total
pruman91
- Paducah, Ky
Cardinals prospect Jordan Walker lifts Salt River to first win of AFL season
The Salt River Rafters were 0-8 entering Wednesday before their 7-5 win over Scottsdale.
Daniel Guerrero
The Salt River Rafters, the team that Cardinals prospects are assigned to during this year’s Arizona Fall League, were winless in their first eight games to begin this year’s fall league.
A team comprised of Cardinals, Tigers, Rockies, Diamondbacks, and Blue Jays prospects received its biggest the season by St. Louis’ top prospects on Wednesday night.
With runners on second and third with no outs in a game tied at 5 in the eighth inning, Walker laced a single up the middle to plate Jordan Lawlar, a Diamondbacks prospect, and Zac Veen, a Rockies prospect, to give Salt River a lead.
The single by Walker registered a 110 mph exit velocity, per statcast. That gave Walker two base hits with exit velocities at or above 110 mph during Salt River’s 7-5 win at Salt River Fields against Scottsdale. Walker’s other single on Wednesday was a 112.3 mph line-drive single to left field in the third inning.
Illwinsagain
- Cary, IL
Gilderoy Lockhart, HP and the Chamber of Secrets?
Last edited:
pruman91
- Paducah, Ky
Admiral Stockdale , Vice Presidential nominee of Presidential nominee Ross Perot , during the Vice Presidential debates........
A phrase that will live in infamy..............................................
pruman91
- Paducah, Ky
I heard Bruce Sutter passed away but I don't know any of the details.
Cardinals' relief ace Bruce Sutter, who clinched 1982 World Series, dies at age 69
Split-fingered practitioner amassed 300 saves and was elected to Baseball Hall of Fame.
Rick Hummel
Bruce Sutter, who threw the final pitch of the 1982 World Series to clinch the Cardinals’ first championship in 15 years, died at the age of 69 on Friday.
Sutter, acquired from the Chicago Cubs after the 1980 season, was elected to the National Baseball Hall of Fame in 2006. He had been living in suburban Atlanta for nearly 40 years after signing with the Braves as a free agent following the 1984 season.
Sutter, who had 300 career saves, was the first player to be elected to the Hall without ever having started a game.
Cardinals chairman Bill DeWitt Jr., said, in a statement, “On behalf of the Cardinals organization and baseball fans everywhere, I would like to express our deepest condolences to the Sutter family. Bruce was a fan-favorite during his years in St. Louis and in the years to follow, and he will always be remembered for his 1982 World Series clinching save and signature split-fingered pitch. He was a true pioneer in the game, changing the role of the late inning reliever.”
-------------------------------------------------------
Bruce Sutter was the most dominant closer of his time , along with Rollie Fingers............Sutter's split finger pitch was so special and I always thought that when he got the call that the game was over and a win for the Cardinals..........I only remember that ill-fated game with the cubbies and ryan sandberg
hitting a homer off Sutter to tie the game and another off Sutter to win the game in extra innings as an anomoly to his greatness.......
Sad to hear he passed..................