St Louis Cardinals 2023

First off, sorry everyone for this long post. Please feel free to ignore if it's not your cup of tea.

GILL-INOIS said:

He has missed time and also played with lingering issues. Thing that scares me is he has got injured in August/September 4 seasons in a row.
Last time Cardinals missed playoffs was 2018, total playoff games played by O'Neill in career 1.

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Check your info. He played 3 games in 2020 and 1 in 2021. So 4 total.

As you said we missed the playoffs in 2018. In 2019, he was available, he just wasn't picked. Arozarena made the roster ahead of him. He actually played on 9/28/19, second to last game of the season (pinch hit, walked, came around to score). Second year player who was borderline to make the playoff roster and missed out. Happens all the time. If we make it this year that's probably gonna be the story for Yepez or Noot or Libby or Pallante or Thompson or Herrera or someone else.

So the only time he missed the playoffs due to injury was last season. 1 time. Not 4.

GILL-INOIS said:

2018 Left hamstring strain
2019 wrist

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Spotrac lists injuries along with the time the player lost due to each injury and dates. Per that source, TON lost 22 days in 2018 due to two separate groin injuries. I could see where groin and hammy get conflated so who knows which is correct, but 22 days is not a crazy amount of time. The 2019 wrist injury cost him a 30 days.

GILL-INOIS said:

2020 never disclosed

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This actually made me laugh. "Never disclosed"...perhaps because he played 50/58 games and spent no time on the DL???? I knew you got this from Fox Sports because they list "undisclosed" with a date of 8/18/20. What would you say if I told you that TON played a double-header on 8/17/20, and then again on 8/19/20? Is it possible he just got a day off and the info on Fox Sports is just bad and wrong?

GILL-INOIS said:

2021 right groin, finger two different times, back
2022 shoulder, hamstring, leg, neck and hamstring again

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Head, shoulders, knees and toes, knees and toes

Don't trust the info on Fox Sports. He missed 13 days due to a groin in '21 and 11 to a finger injury (freak thing sliding into 2nd, could happen to any player). Those are the only times he was on the DL that year. I'm sure he played through other injuries....that's what major leaguers do. The guy finished 8th in MVP voting that year and your post makes it sound like he was using a walker to round the bases.

GILL-INOIS said:

Injuries happen unfortunately....this forum is being very nice about it. Still in his prime at 27(28 this summer) but it does worry me with his injury history so far if he can be a consistent MLB player and also play when it counts. He has had one real good season and the team needs that production to take the next step.

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Sure. The problem is that people aren't accurately assessing his value and cost. He's not breaking the bank. Per Spotrac he's the #238 salary in the MLB and #10 on the Cardinals, and that's after getting a big raise this past offseason. In 2022 teams paid on average $8.5MM per 1 WAR in thr free agency market. TON was worth 1.3 WAR in 2022 and was paid $3.4MM. On the open market his 1.3 WAR would've been worth around $11MM. Heck, Corey Dickerson made $5MM last season, and accumulated either 0.0 WAR or 0.5 WAR depending on whether you go by BR or Fangraphs.

Contreras also has a ton of injuries on his resume. His Fox Sports readout for 2022 would be:

"hamstring, ankle, hamstring again, ankle again, foot". I still think he's worth every penny.

Just as, in my opinion, it's worth it to ride out the rest of TON's 2 years of team control, just in case he can repeat his 2021 performance.

I did mess up and forgot about 2020 playoffs my bad. Hopefully he can get his 1st playoff hit this season

I have never said the Cardinals NEED to trade O'Neill. I am aware he isn't a free agent for a few seasons and cost effective. I just stated the reason if he is traded is because of the fear of injuries. I also stated while he missed games he played with lingering injuries, that means it includes games he came back from injury. You are trying to construe something that I never said. I have mentioned I am rooting for TON to have a big season and we don't have to share the same take on him at all. You should go back and look at the random posts I put on this....never have attacked TON at all. Cardinals Way with him while he is under cheap $$$.....


You have mentioned Goldy, Arenado, Contreras, etc as comparisons. Difference is these guys have played a lot more games consistently and are considered some of the best at their position. TON has "potential" and can get hot..just not done it consistently (hopefully so far)

I don't think TON is going to be traded, because a mult-year cost controlled player that could put up the numbers he can when healthy is more intriguing to the Cardinals than anyone else. His health concerns probably scare off potential suitors or change what type of player we get in return.

Having said that, we could certainly package him in a deal to bring back a top of the line starter. A player like Winn or Hence with TON and another proven Major leaguer could seal a deal to bring back an Ace if the right amount of money was involved. It's always a good idea to trade from surplus. I would prefer to make a trade that preserves pitching and utilizes outfield and middle infield depth.

Dee_4_Three_83 said:

I don't think TON is going to be traded, because a mult-year cost controlled player that could put up the numbers he can when healthy is more intriguing to the Cardinals than anyone else. His health concerns probably scare off potential suitors or change what type of player we get in return.

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Dee_4_Three_83 said:

It's always a good idea to trade from surplus. I would prefer to make a trade that preserves pitching and utilizes outfield and middle infield depth.

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I agree on both these takes

Nootbaar isn't back yet and Walker is just a baby in the OF. There is no way they are trading him this season unless there is some sort of crazy deal where they could land an upgrade(not likely or cheap).

Just need him playing for a full season is all we need....

Dee_4_Three_83 said:

Having said that, we could certainly package him in a deal to bring back a top of the line starter. A player like Winn or Hence with TON and another proven Major leaguer could seal a deal to bring back an Ace if the right amount of money was involved. It's always a good idea to trade from surplus. I would prefer to make a trade that preserves pitching and utilizes outfield and middle infield depth.

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True, though I think in that scenario Winn/Hence is the main piece, and TON is there to sweeten the pot. Even so, teams dealing an ace are probably going to prefer more prospects and fewer major leaguers so I think Joshua Baez or Moises Gomez might be more appropriate pieces (even though I really like both those guys).

I think the possibility not getting any attention is that if Winn gets called up some time this season, could we trade Edman? I'd think he'd have significantly more trade value than TON right now, because he has am extra year of team control and plays GG defense at a premium defensive position, so even if he's not hitting great he's still valuable. At some point the Cards will have to make a tough choice in the middle infield with Edman, Donovan, Gorman and Winn. Conventional wisdom says no need to make that move until next season, but maybe a team having a bad year that wants a quick 1-2 year rebuild might value Edman (plus a couple mid-tier prospects)?

I don't think there's going to be an easy answer mid-season to fix our rotation. Last trade deadline Castillo returned a haul to the Reds, which included the Mariners' top prospect, #3 and #5 prospects, and one more unranked prospect. Using MLB Pipeline, that'd equate to Jordan Walker, Tink Hence, Alec Burleson, and one unnamed, unranked guy. Not gonna happen. Frankie Montas, who had some injury concerns, cost the Yankees their #5, 10, 20 and 21 prospects. That would equate to Alec Burleson, Jonathan Mejia, Austin Love and Alec Willis. That's not horrible, but I'm not sure I'd call Montas an ace to begin with, and he turned out to be a complete disaster for the Yankees.

GILL-INOIS said:

You have mentioned Goldy, Arenado, Contreras, etc as comparisons. Difference is these guys have played a lot more games consistently and are considered some of the best at their position. TON has "potential" and can get hot..just not done it consistently (hopefully so far)

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I mentioned Goldy and Arenado to point out that everyone has looked bad striking out before. Nothing to do with longevity or talent. Of course thise guys are future HOFers and TON has no shot. I get that. That's the point of using them as a comparison. Even these gods among men have looked silly in a single at bat sample before.

Contreras hasn't been that consistently on the field. He's never hit the 500 AB mark. The most games he's played in a season is 138, which is actually the exact same as TON. I get catcher is a physically taxing position, but by his age 31 season (Contreras' current age) Yadi had 5 seasons in which he'd played over 130 games. Contreras has just 1 (2018). And that's ok with me because Contreras has still been very valuable. Like I said, worth every penny even if he only plays around 120 games, which is his average for non-Covid seasons. If we're being honest, if Contreras could play all 162 the Cardinals probably wouldn't have been able to afford him!

the juiceman cometh said:

I think the possibility not getting any attention is that if Winn gets called up some time this season, could we trade Edman? I'd think he'd have significantly more trade value than TON right now, because he has am extra year of team control and plays GG defense at a premium defensive position, so even if he's not hitting great he's still valuable. At some point the Cards will have to make a tough choice in the middle infield with Edman, Donovan, Gorman and Winn. Conventional wisdom says no need to make that move until next season, but maybe a team having a bad year that wants a quick 1-2 year rebuild might value Edman (plus a couple mid-tier prospects)?

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Not opposed to Winn coming up later in the season if he is tearing the ball up in AAA to help with postseason run. He needs to play everyday and slow start so far in the minors.

I don't see the Cardinals trading Edman. After Edman you really don't have much at SS on a daily basis. Donovan doesn't have that much experience at SS, Winn likely needs a full year in the minors and Cardinals are on last lifeline with DeJong. Motter is a fill in until we get some guys back from injury. Hate to say it but I think the Cardinals will give DeJong a spot up before Winn. After this season Cards can buy him out unless do before that time.

Edman is the most solid SS we have on the roster

Hope Gorman can grow into 2B more but at least he can DH and plateau between 2B and 3B on rest days

Donovan can play multiple positions on infield and OF

JMO but think the Cardinals will let it play out and hope DeJong has one last run in him or Winn gets brought up later in the year. If neither happens than Donovan is the backup at SS.

Is it me or do we have a ton of utility players?

the juiceman cometh said:

I mentioned Goldy and Arenado to point out that everyone has looked bad striking out before. Nothing to do with longevity or talent. Of course thise guys are future HOFers and TON has no shot. I get that. That's the point of using them as a comparison. Even these gods among men have looked silly in a single at bat sample before.

Contreras hasn't been that consistently on the field. He's never hit the 500 AB mark. The most games he's played in a season is 138, which is actually the exact same as TON. I get catcher is a physically taxing position, but by his age 31 season (Contreras' current age) Yadi had 5 seasons in which he'd played over 130 games. Contreras has just 1 (2018). And that's ok with me because Contreras has still been very valuable. Like I said, worth every penny even if he only plays around 120 games, which is his average for non-Covid seasons. If we're being honest, if Contreras could play all 162 the Cardinals probably wouldn't have been able to afford him!

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Yeah comparing Catcher to any position is totally different and we agree on that. Cardinals had to get a catcher where they wouldn't fall off a cliff and they did that with Contreras.

GILL-INOIS said:

Is it me or do we have a ton of utility players?

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We do! Everyone is focused on OF but honestly the logjam in infield is probably more of a complicated situation, especially since the corner spots are completely locked up. So we have a ton of competition for time for the two middle infield spots.

the juiceman cometh said:

We do! Everyone is focused on OF but honestly the logjam in infield is probably more of a complicated situation, especially since the corner spots are completely locked up. So we have a ton of competition for time for the two middle infield spots.

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All just be easier if we sign Ohtani to be our #1 ace and DH in offseason

GILL-INOIS said:

All just be easier if we sign Ohtani to be our #1 ace and DH in offseason

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No runs there. 1st and 3rd no outs and nothing. Given our start to this season, my wife is lucky our patio furniture isn't thrown all over the yard. Infuriating!

Strong defense tonight

My wife is flipping back and forth between two chick flicks, not in HD, while I have to watch the game on my iPad.

Cardinals win 3-0 with a very well pitched game by Woodford , Thompson , VerHagen and Gallegos....
great defense and timely hitting....

THAT'S A WINNER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BillyBob1 said:

My wife is flipping back and forth between two chick flicks, not in HD, while I have to watch the game on my iPad.

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As it should be.

pruman91 said:

.

THAT'S A WINNER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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As it should be.

wpr said:

As it should be.

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I’ll agree with this one!

Lynn Worthy


Twenty-two at-bats of frustration and badly wanting to deliver came spilling out of Cardinals catcher Willson Contreras after his slump-busting RBI single in the eighth inning on Friday night. He roared, clapped his hands, wound up and unleashed an enthusiastic hand slap on first base coach Stubby Clapp and then looked toward the dugout and gave the pepper grinder gesture to his teammates.
Contreras, the club’s big offseason acquisition and the heir to franchise icon Yadier Molina as the club’s everyday catcher, had been mired in the longest hitless streak of his major-league career until his flare into right-center field drove in pinch runner Jordan Walker and gave the Cardinals, who were clinging to a one-run advantage at the time, an insurance run.

They went on to secure a 3-0 win over the Pittsburgh Pirates at Busch Stadium and even the series at one game apiece with two remaining over the weekend.
Asked if Contreras’ reaction showed a little bit of the relief he felt, Cardinals manager Oliver Marmol replied in a tongue-in-cheek manner, “I would say just a little bit. Yeah.”

Lynn Worthy

After 14 consecutive innings of bad luck and offensive futility, the Cardinals manufactured a lone run in the sixth inning behind the hitting of Nolan Arenado and Nolan Gorman on Friday night.
That much-needed breath of fresh air took some of the edge off. The one run would’ve been enough for the victory, but the Cardinals tacked on two insurance runs in the eighth inning to snap out of the mini-funk on their way to a 3-0 win over the Pittsburgh Pirates in front of an announced crowd of 40,637 at Busch Stadium.
The win evened the series at a game apiece with two remaining.
Arenado ripped a one-out single into left field in the sixth, advanced to scoring position on a sharply hit grounder to first base by Willson Contreras, then Gorman smacked an RBI single to center field to break a 0-0 tie.

Gorman and Contreras drove in runs with singles in the eighth. Gorman has now registered 12 RBIs this season, which made him the sixth Cardinal age 22 or younger with 11 RBIs in first 14 games of the season. He joined Albert Pujols in 2001 (12) and 2002 (14), Steve Bilko in 1951 (12), Nippy Jones in 1948 (12), and Joe Medwick in 1934 (16).

On the hitting front I think the Cardinals will work out the kinks....

Heard something the other day after the Cardinals lost 5-0 to the Pirates that they were 0-9 with runners in scoring position and for the season 1-11 with bases loaded. Teams like Padres, Mets, Dodgers, etc were all batting lower than the Cardinals with runners in scoring position. If it happens more than not in the next month or two straight than we might have something to worry about.

(writing this going into Bottom of 5th tied 2-2 today)

GILL-INOIS said:

On the hitting front I think the Cardinals will work out the kinks....

Heard something the other day after the Cardinals lost 5-0 to the Pirates that they were 0-9 with runners in scoring position and for the season 1-11 with bases loaded. Teams like Padres, Mets, Dodgers, etc were all batting lower than the Cardinals with runners in scoring position. If it happens more than not in the next month or two straight than we might have something to worry about.

(writing this going into Bottom of 5th tied 2-2 today)

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Am I missing something or are the two bolded statements mutually exclusive? Loaded bases have by definition runners in scoring position. Not sure what the correct stat is but something is amiss.

DReq said:

Am I missing something or are the two bolded statements mutually exclusive? Loaded bases have by definition runners in scoring position. Not sure what the correct stat is but something is amiss.

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Runner in scoring position can mean only 2nd base, only 3rd base or both 2nd and 3rd base.

Bases loaded you probably know

GILL-INOIS said:

Runner in scoring position can mean only 2nd base, only 3rd base or both 2nd and 3rd base.

Bases loaded you probably know

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The original statement said Cards were 0-9 with RISP. Are you saying that RISP doesn't include loaded bases? It was also said that the Cards were 1-11 with bases loaded. That looks like a hit with the bases loaded to me. Your explanation adds nothing to clarify that. I still could be missing something but what you added does not tell me anything. Are you saying you can be hitless with RISP and have one hit with bases loaded?

DReq said:

The original statement said Cards were 0-9 with RISP. Are you saying that RISP doesn't include loaded bases? It was also said that the Cards were 1-11 with bases loaded. That looks like a hit with the bases loaded to me. Your explanation adds nothing to clarify that. I still could be missing something but what you added does not tell me anything. Are you saying you can be hitless with RISP and have one hit with bases loaded?

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Slow down and read what I put

0-9 with runners in scoring position when they lost 5-0 to the Pirates the other day

1-11 with bases loaded for the season

One stat was for the one game, other for the season up to that point

Good?