The mascot debate

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#76      

pruman91

pruman91
Paducah, Ky
pruman91
Govoner Vaugn Fan said:
Back in the '50s, when I was a youngun', my Dad liked watching UofI basketball. I think it was on WILL (pbs) back then, and sometimes on WCIA. I remember asking my Dad why the Illini had an Indian Chief dance at halfime.? After all, I thought, weren't all the Indians out West? (I got that from all the westerns on TV back then).
My Dad, who was a High School Principal and had a lot books, went to the big bookcase and pulled out book on the history of Illinois, and pointed out several chapters on tribes native to the state.
That got my interest, and I read all I could from books at the local library about the Black Hawk war, the story of Starved Rock, the pre-Columbian history of Dixon Mounds and, of course Cahokia mounds. I later listened to my grandfather's story of playing on the Mounds on the St Louis side of the river, where he was raised, before they were leveled for development in the 1890's. I also accumulated a nice arrowhead and axe head collection. Later on, as a teacher I enjoyed telling students about native history of Illinois (of which they usually knew nothing) Often they would connect the fact that Illinois had a rich native American history with Chief Illiniwek and I said it was a tradition meant to honor our native predecessors and should be treated with reverence. I hope at least a few of them retained some tidbits of knowledge of those honored people of the past.
So, no, I do not think the Chief should have been silenced or his dance halted. I hate that many people do not understand the difference between a 'mascot', and a revered symbol of those who came before us.
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awesome post bro.............................................I would jump in with both feet if there ever is a movement to restore the CHIEF emblem to Illini sports .......................
 
#77      

chiefini

chiefini
Rockford, Illinois
chiefini
Govoner Vaugn Fan said:
Back in the '50s, when I was a youngun', my Dad liked watching UofI basketball. I think it was on WILL (pbs) back then, and sometimes on WCIA. I remember asking my Dad why the Illini had an Indian Chief dance at halfime.? After all, I thought, weren't all the Indians out West? (I got that from all the westerns on TV back then).
My Dad, who was a High School Principal and had a lot books, went to the big bookcase and pulled out book on the history of Illinois, and pointed out several chapters on tribes native to the state.
That got my interest, and I read all I could from books at the local library about the Black Hawk war, the story of Starved Rock, the pre-Columbian history of Dixon Mounds and, of course Cahokia mounds. I later listened to my grandfather's story of playing on the Mounds on the St Louis side of the river, where he was raised, before they were leveled for development in the 1890's. I also accumulated a nice arrowhead and axe head collection. Later on, as a teacher I enjoyed telling students about native history of Illinois (of which they usually knew nothing) Often they would connect the fact that Illinois had a rich native American history with Chief Illiniwek and I said it was a tradition meant to honor our native predecessors and should be treated with reverence. I hope at least a few of them retained some tidbits of knowledge of those honored people of the past.
So, no, I do not think the Chief should have been silenced or his dance halted. I hate that many people do not understand the difference between a 'mascot', and a revered symbol of those who came before us.
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Well-written post with a view I totally share, Gov. As a now retired high school English and journalism teacher of 35 years, I made it a point while I was reaching to have each year‘s Illini Football and Basketball schedule posters up in my classroom. After each Homecoming game, I would return with photos of Chief Illiniwek and the Marching Illini, passing them around to my students as I explained the history of the Chief. One of my freshman students was Scott Christensen, who later became Chief Illiniwek in 1981-83. Scott was an amazing Chief, and I always wondered if I had any part of his honorable portrayal. I also organized a Rockford Area Illini Club event, a “pep rally” with cheerleaders, where I had a later Chief, John Madigan, give an educational presentation to 200 Illini fans where he explained the history of our honored and revered symbol, a role that was part of his educational responsibility as Chief. He was phenomenal, as was Steve Raquel when he came to Rockford to one of our events to do a similar presentation. I, too, tire of trying to explain how by keeping the spirit and purpose of Chief Illiniwek alive, we kept the spirit and purpose of the Illini Nation, the Native Americans of the Confederation of Illini, remembered and honored. If we allow the current students and residents of the state to forget who the true Fighting Illini were, that is as dishonorable a demise as I can think of…
 
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#78      

illini80

illini80
Forgottonia
illini80
chiefini said:
Well-written post with a view I totally share, Gov. As a now retired high school English and journalism teacher of 35 years, I made it a point while I was reaching to have each year‘s Illini Football and Basketball schedule posters up in my classroom. After each Homecoming game, I would return with photos of Chief Illiniwek and the Marching Illini, passing them around to my students as I explained the history of the Chief. One of my freshman students was Scott Christensen, who later became Chief Illiniwek in 1981-83. Scott was an amazing Chief, and I always wondered if I had any part of his honorable portrayal. I also organized a Rockford Area Illini Club event, a “pep rally” with cheerleaders, where I had a later Chief, John Madigan, give an educational presentation to 200 Illini fans where he explained the history of our honored and revered symbol, a role that was part of his educational responsibility as Chief. He was phenomenal, as was Steve Raquel when he came to Rockford to one of our events to do a similar presentation. I, too, tire of trying to explain how by keeping the spirit and purpose of Chief Illiniwek alive, we kept the spirit and purpose of the Illini Nation, the Native Americans of the Confederation of Illini, remembered and honored. If we allow the current students and residents of the state to forget who the true Fighting Illini were, that is as dishonorable a demise as I can think of…
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I agree with you and Gov.

We all know there was shameful and racist imagery of Native Americans for many years used in TV, movies, advertising, etc. The Chief was none of those things. I can’t remember the last time I saw something outside of a rare media piece about a casino or the like, that showed anything about Native Americans in the Midwest. We should be looking for ways to honor that history. Wiping their existence from memory is a tragic result of political correctness gone awry. JMHO after I’ve said I’d never enter this discussion again….
 
#79      

pruman91

pruman91
Paducah, Ky
pruman91
illini80 said:
I agree with you and Gov.

We all know there was shameful and racist imagery of Native Americans for many years used in TV, movies, advertising, etc. The Chief was none of those things. I can’t remember the last time I saw something outside of a rare media piece about a casino or the like, that showed anything about Native Americans in the Midwest. We should be looking for ways to honor that history. Wiping their existence from memory is a tragic result of political correctness gone awry. JMHO after I’ve said I’d never enter this discussion again….
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My memory is hazy sometimes but i do remember something about there was no living members of the tribe associated with the Illini and chief designations to allow or approve of our use of the chief symbol , whereas the Seminole Nation had approved fsu's use of that tribe......

I believe we were threatened with loss of home court usage if we persisted with allowing the chief to continue............Seems like it might be a matter that requires further investigation towards the renewed actions of restoration of the hallowed pastime.....JMHO
 
#80      

dbeaverfg

dbeaverfg
dbeaverfg
"Educate NOT Eradicate" is the very fitting slogan used by the Native American Guardians Association to emphasize what should be the attitude toward native symbolism. As a youngster my family spent a good deal of time in Minnesota and I learned about the Chippewa tribe, attending pow-wows and researching their history. My high school was called the Warriors and had our on version of the chief. I was always proud to honor the original inhabitants of our area. Later, I found out that Warriors only came about during WWII when the original nickname of Sunrisers was dropped because of its association with Japan and the land of the rising sun. An early example of correctness being used in a sports context.

It's unfortunate, but I do see native groups fading from the collective consciousness as more and more references to them are eliminated.
 
#81      

Ill in Cols

I
Ill in Cols
Fighter of the Nightman said:
I again want to reiterate that I am surprised it's not more popular to try to "thread the needle" between new traditions and a corny mascot. The latter will be absolutely loathed by at least 50% of the fanbase, with another 25% having absolutely no feeling for it and another 25% forcing themselves to like it to make a point, lol. The diehard Chief crowd (of which I'm barely not a part) will never support another "mascot"/symbol, and that is totally understandable! And the anti-Chief crowd would never tolerate the Chief's return ... also somewhat understandable, and (more importantly) it's kind of a done deal at this point.

Thus, it seems like the path that would make the most happy is to do something that doesn't seem it comes out of nowhere (like a "Kingfisher" or some other totally random, joke-level thing) but rather has the same "feel" as the Chief (i.e., different than a true mascot and still relevant to past Illinois traditions). I totally respect that this isn't everyone's opinion, but to me ... that is so obviously some sort of increase in our attachment World War I, Illinois veterans, the true meaning of Memorial Stadium, etc. I just think it's a ridiculously easy fix, and the more I ponder it, the more surprised I am that absolutely no one in the DIA is tried to lean into this in the years since 2007 at all ... like, literally for no other reason than the selfish monetary value it might provide the U of I down the line if young Illinoisans from birth associate the "Fighting Illini" with a respect and reverence for our armed forces.

I don't know, maybe growing up with the Chief (I just turned 31, so kind of "in the middle" of this generational change) made me irrationally biased toward mascots, but I think they are so unbelievably dumb and not cool at all. As an example, even though USC's Trojan "mascot" is not really made to be as cool as he could be, it's infinitely cooler than the blow-up Spartan bodybuilder that Michigan State trots out there to jump around like an idiot. I just do not get the appeal of a "Herky the Hawkeye" or "Bucky the Badger" figure whatsoever, and I actually think schools like Michigan, Indiana and Illinois that largely don't bother with it have the right idea, lol. A logo is a totally different story, though.
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How about a poisonous nut with a goofy grin?
 
#82      

Battle89

Battle89
Battle89
pruman91 said:
My memory is hazy sometimes but i do remember something about there was no living members of the tribe associated with the Illini and chief designations to allow or approve of our use of the chief symbol , whereas the Seminole Nation had approved fsu's use of that tribe......

I believe we were threatened with loss of home court usage if we persisted with allowing the chief to continue............Seems like it might be a matter that requires further investigation towards the renewed actions of restoration of the hallowed pastime.....JMHO
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My recollection (educators correct me) is that there was and is not a lone Illini tribe with whom we could make an agreement such as FSU did. The Illini were a loose confederation of tribes. Were we the Fighting Pawnee, or similar, we may have been able to deal.
 
#83      

pruman91

pruman91
Paducah, Ky
pruman91
Battle89 said:
My recollection (educators correct me) is that there was and is not a lone Illini tribe with whom we could make an agreement such as FSU did. The Illini were a loose confederation of tribes. Were we the Fighting Pawnee, or similar, we may have been able to deal.
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Fighting Apaches.......................
 
#86      

Guest

Guest
Guest
MustangWally said:
I missed the part where I said there was a "wave of wokeism" against the word "chief". You should read what I wrote a little more carefully. It was factually true.
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Ok, so I am confused. Just what was the point of your original post then? I assumed it was to point out that the elimination of the word "chief" was going on and presumably that it was happening fairly often. If that was not the intent and instead it was just to point out that it happened a couple or three places in North America then I don't understand why you even posted it. Also you brought up the term "ultra wokesters" (your statement "I've heard that some ultra wokesters even want to ban the word "chief"? Which turns out not to true as well It seems like a specious statement and an odd thing to post when there are only three instances of this happening (for those just tuning in: one was a school board reacting to indigenous people's (parents) concerns, the one in Toronto was a result of a study by a committee and the one in Duluth was more concerned about gender and only secondary concern about indigenous people). All in all a post that was hardly worth posting. So basically why would you post something so spurious?
 
#87      

RML

R
RML
sacraig said:
Alma Otter or nothing.
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I would also accept HAL 9000 as a voice and red light on the scoreboard, but not as a traditional "mascot" (i.e, cute costumed character parading the sidelines).

(Like many, I think, I never considered the chief to be a "mascot." I would never have wanted him appearing in commercials alongside Brutus or the Duke blue devil, for example.)
 
#88      

RML

R
RML
pruman91 said:
My memory is hazy sometimes but i do remember something about there was no living members of the tribe associated with the Illini and chief designations to allow or approve of our use of the chief symbol , whereas the Seminole Nation had approved fsu's use of that tribe......

I believe we were threatened with loss of home court usage if we persisted with allowing the chief to continue............Seems like it might be a matter that requires further investigation towards the renewed actions of restoration of the hallowed pastime.....JMHO
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I also remember reading some FSU material that said Florida State's warrior was actually inspired by our chief; but that FSU wanted something a little wilder, hence the spear throwing, etc.

And then of course the NCAA banned the dignified version, and approved the stereotypically ferocious one.
 
#90      

Birdus

B
Birdus
How bout the Fighting Illini Chiefs? Works for Kansas City and we have the real CHIEF! Have him ride out on a horse like F. State and spear the referees before every home game :)
 
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#91      

MustangWally

MustangWally
Mayfield
MustangWally
Guest said:
Ok, so I am confused. Just what was the point of your original post then? I assumed it was to point out that the elimination of the word "chief" was going on and presumably that it was happening fairly often. If that was not the intent and instead it was just to point out that it happened a couple or three places in North America then I don't understand why you even posted it. Also you brought up the term "ultra wokesters" (your statement "I've heard that some ultra wokesters even want to ban the word "chief"? Which turns out not to true as well It seems like a specious statement and an odd thing to post when there are only three instances of this happening (for those just tuning in: one was a school board reacting to indigenous people's (parents) concerns, the one in Toronto was a result of a study by a committee and the one in Duluth was more concerned about gender and only secondary concern about indigenous people). All in all a post that was hardly worth posting. So basically why would you post something so spurious?
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:)
 
#92      

Ransom Stoddard

Ransom Stoddard
Ordained Dudeist Priest
Bloomington, IL
Ransom Stoddard
Sign me up for team "we don't need a mascot".

Serious question for the Kingfisher crowd. How many Kingfishers have you ever seen? Do we really want to adopt a symbol/mascot that's supposedly in our state that very few people even know exists (I know I didn't)? It seems like a massive stretch, at best.

As for the Otter--another animal that isn't prevalent in the state outside of aquariums, and "Alma Mater" isn't unique to UI either. It's a cute idea, but it would be super cringey in the real world IMO.

I miss Chief, I thought Chief was cool in the day, but Chief's gone not coming back. The idea of putting a non-native in war paint and regalia (that isn't even authentic to the indigenous that lived in this area), and doing a made-up dance sounds really, really bad in 2022. UIUC's opportunity to go the FSU route came and went several decades ago, and Native Americans don't need non-natives trying to educate anyone about their culture or "save" their culture. They're perfectly capable of doing it themselves and doing it on their own terms.

And get off my lawn!!!
 
#93      

Gunner23

G
Panama City, Florida
Gunner23
Ransom Stoddard said:
Sign me up for team "we don't need a mascot".

Serious question for the Kingfisher crowd. How many Kingfishers have you ever seen? Do we really want to adopt a symbol/mascot that's supposedly in our state that very few people even know exists (I know I didn't)? It seems like a massive stretch, at best.

As for the Otter--another animal that isn't prevalent in the state outside of aquariums, and "Alma Mater" isn't unique to UI either. It's a cute idea, but it would be super cringey in the real world IMO.

I miss Chief, I thought Chief was cool in the day, but Chief's gone not coming back. The idea of putting a non-native in war paint and regalia (that isn't even authentic to the indigenous that lived in this area), and doing a made-up dance sounds really, really bad in 2022. UIUC's opportunity to go the FSU route came and went several decades ago, and Native Americans don't need non-natives trying to educate anyone about their culture or "save" their culture. They're perfectly capable of doing it themselves and doing it on their own terms.

And get off my lawn!!!
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I am also in the "we don't need a mascot" crowd.

I see Kingfishers all the time here. They are pretty cool birds. Problem is, I live in Panama City, Florida. :)
 
#100      

champaignchris

C
champaignchris
Ransom Stoddard said:
Sign me up for team "we don't need a mascot".

Serious question for the Kingfisher crowd. How many Kingfishers have you ever seen? Do we really want to adopt a symbol/mascot that's supposedly in our state that very few people even know exists (I know I didn't)? It seems like a massive stretch, at best.

As for the Otter--another animal that isn't prevalent in the state outside of aquariums, and "Alma Mater" isn't unique to UI either. It's a cute idea, but it would be super cringey in the real world IMO.

I miss Chief, I thought Chief was cool in the day, but Chief's gone not coming back. The idea of putting a non-native in war paint and regalia (that isn't even authentic to the indigenous that lived in this area), and doing a made-up dance sounds really, really bad in 2022. UIUC's opportunity to go the FSU route came and went several decades ago, and Native Americans don't need non-natives trying to educate anyone about their culture or "save" their culture. They're perfectly capable of doing it themselves and doing it on their own terms.

And get off my lawn!!!
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I live about 5 miles from campus and see kingfishers all the time around the neighborhood pond during the summer.

My mother in law has a house on a lake about 40 miles from campus and we see otters there about once a year. We see minks more often though. Vicious little things.
 
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