TSJ Thread

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#151      
An actual case in a different state, a person falsely misrepresented he was a porn producer and victims thought they were auditioning for a job when in reality he was lying about everything he was found guilty. I am not familiar of any case when someone pretended to be a race car driver or Brad Pitt’s brother and was convicted of a crime.

If you're referring to the Mario Ambrose Antoine case from federal court in Missouri, that actually was not a conviction for rape or any type of sex crime. It was a wire fraud conviction because he posed as a producer using fake Facebook profiles, coerced the women into having sex with him as a way to "audition" and with the promise of payment, and, in some cases, then used the tapes to blackmail the women. So it was treated like a financial crime where someone uses misreprsentation to lure a victim into providing something of value based on false pretenses. This likely would not be applicable here as the use of the internet or phone is what established federal jurisdiction.

 
#152      
What the DA may be relying on is sub paragraph (e) of the statute that he is charged under. I’m sorry if this has already been pointed out, but I didn’t see it discussed. It says “it shall not be a defense that the offender did not know or have reason to know that the victim did not consent to the sexual intercourse, that the victim was overcome by force or fear, or that the victim was unconscious or physically powerless.” That’s really strange language and kind of troubling. It seems to imply that a person reporting a rape can claim that there was no consent or she was afraid even if there was no reason for the other person involved to think that was the case, and that would not be a defense. I don’t know if there is case law in Kansas that limits that, but the plain language seems problematic.
I did post about this earlier, and yes, it is very troubling. It appears an accuser does not have to communicate that they don't consent. Or they could communicate consent and then change their mind without communicating that they have.
 
#153      
Unfortunately Kansas state law does not require a grand jury. The prosecutor can initiate the case with a complaint without ever putting the case before the grand jury.

Second, bail was set in this case. I’m guessing in those bail conditions, there are geographic restrictions. Since Shannon returned to Champaign, he is likely prohibited from leaving Champaign without court approval (or possibly the probation officer assigned to the case). The exception would be to attend court appearances.

(Im a lawyer in the court system for anyone who cares)
I see. I was not aware. That actually explains some of this. That’s the problem trying to make sense out of proceedings in other jurisdictions that you’re not familiar with. I don’t understand what this Kansas DA is doing. It’s so peculiar to me for a prosecutor to drop a serious felony charge on a person and then the court says “OK let’s see everyone back here in four weeks” and that’s it. But I’m starting to realize I’m out of my depth, as I guess pretty much all of us are.
 
#154      
If you're referring to the Mario Ambrose Antoine case from federal court in Missouri, that actually was not a conviction for rape or any type of sex crime. It was a wire fraud conviction because he posed as a producer using fake Facebook profiles, coerced the women into having sex with him as a way to "audition" and with the promise of payment, and, in some cases, then used the tapes to blackmail the women. So it was treated like a financial crime where someone uses misreprsentation to lure a victim into providing something of value based on false pretenses. This likely would not be applicable here as the use of the internet or phone is what established federal jurisdiction.

This story is behind a paywall but does a good job explaining the same Ambrose story how rape by fraud isn't a thing in Kansas.
 
#155      
I see. I was not aware. That actually explains some of this. That’s the problem trying to make sense out of proceedings in other jurisdictions that you’re not familiar with. I don’t understand what this Kansas DA is doing. It’s so peculiar to me for a prosecutor to drop a serious felony charge on a person and then the court says “OK let’s see everyone back here in four weeks” and that’s it. But I’m starting to realize I’m out of my depth, as I guess pretty much all of us are.
It is tricky and they seem to be doing things by a different playbook than what most people know.
 
#156      
There’s the old joke that goes something like this:

A: Would you sleep with me for a million dollars?
B: Sure!
A: How about $10?
B: Hell no! What do you think I am?
A: We’ve already established that. Now we’re just negotiating the price.

That quote may not be original to him, but I believe that was often used by Groucho Marx.

Regarding the topic at hand... a 'What If' Question. WHAT IF before a game a person ‘loyal’ to the opponent actively seeks out a member of ‘your’ team at a ‘social’ setting with bad intent in mind and an idea to do harm to the player and the team by getting ‘friendly’? The weaponization of a ‘relationship’ used to help your opponent?

Some other possibly useful Groucho quotes...

“You'll be hearing from my lawyer as soon as he graduates from law school.”

“It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas (City) in order to be unhappy.”

“Learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.”
 
#157      
Too much here to respond to individually. Instead, here is a long and tedious legal post that I would recommend skipping or blocking if you are bored to death with this stuff by now.

(1) All that has been filed is a felony complaint. The purpose of the felony complaint is to commence the case. It basically functions as notice to the defendant and a summons to appear in court. It also serves as grounds to set bail or hold someone in jail. But that part of it is not relevant here because the court did not deem TSJ a flight risk and did not set bail. There is not a high standard of proof to sustain a felony complaint. Basically all you need are sworn allegations. The felony complaint also does not necessary reflect the charges that will later be brought. The charges may be more serious or less serious. That depends on what the prosecution can establish in the grand jury.

(2) The nature of what this case actually involves in terms of the factual allegations will likely only become clear after it is presented to the grand jury. (As I said in an earlier post, the police or DA could have issued a press release that provided some explanation of what crime they believe occurred but they opted not to do that, which is a judgment call I find highly questionable and unprofessional, but in any event, that’s what they did.) Grand jury proceedings are always secret. But if they vote to induct, the charges in the indictment (which is not secret) will be an indication of what actual crime or crimes are being alleged. That’s the roadmap going forward. Also, the grand jury will typically be instructed to charge every crime that is supported by the evidence, including any less serious charges. That is done for procedural reasons and generally it is not significant in and of itself. If you ever look at an indictment for a murder case, there will typically also be numerous weapons possession counts tagged on too. It doesn’t mean the prosecution thinks they can’t prove murder or want to plead the case out with a weapons charge. The indictment is meant to be inclusive of everything. Every defendant has a constitutional right to be charged by a grand jury indictment for all felony counts. A person cannot be convicted of a crime at trial that was not charged in the indictment (unless the charge is by definition a lesser-included offense).

(3) People love to point out how easy it is to get a grand jury to return an indictment. That’s sort of true, but it’s more nuanced than that. The standard of proof is not high—all that needs to be shown in probable cause. And the evidence isn’t challenged. There is no defense attorney present to object or cross examine witnesses. There is no judge present. It is 100% the prosecutor’s show. It is not, in other words, like a mini trial. The purpose to demonstrate to the satisfaction of the grand jurors that evidence exists that, if true, would establish every element of the crime being charged. This is sometimes referred to as the legal sufficiency or prima facie case requirement. But there is a check on prosecutorial excesses. The defendant can file a motion for the court to review the grand jury transcript and dismiss any counts that were not adequately supported by evidence.

(4) The significance of the grand jury in this instance is that the Kansas prosecutor must produce evidence that, if true (meaning, if we assume all the witnesses are telling the truth and all the evidence is valid) would establish a forcible rape as defined by statue and cases interpreting it. This is the reason I am still highly dubious regarding this “misrepresentation as rape” theory that is floating around. Misrepresentation is not force and it is not fear. It just isn’t. Unless there is case law in Kansas that says it is. Which I very highly doubt, because that would be far out of line with the legal definition of forcible rape in every other jurisdiction that I am familiar with. That interpretation would also contradict the plain language of the statute. I don’t have a lot of confidence in this Kansas DA based on how they have proceeded so far, but nevertheless, I’d would be absolutely shocked if they are not holding in their hand a sworn deposition from the accuser in this case that says, in sum and substance, “I did not consent to the sexual contact but the accused engaged in that sexual contact by force despite my objections.” Whether that claim is credible or that 12 jurors would believe it is a different question to be resolved much later at trial. But if the accuser claims it, then it can be charged. Then you put it to the grand jury.

(5) I keep seeing references here to the prosecution’s “misrepresentation as rape” theory. There is nothing to suggest the misrepresentation version originated with the prosecution or police. In fact logic would tell us it’s the opposite, that the “misrepresentation” theory sounds much more like a defense (which could be true or not, we don’t know) that somebody close to TSJ has put out there and that the internetverse then picked up and ran with. I would be absolutely flabbergasted if it turned out that “misrepresentation” was the theory of criminality that the police and DA are operating under. Especially the police—they are going to expect the victim to tell them she said stop and the alleged perpetrator kept going anyway and overcame the victim’s attempts to resist. That’s the common thread in every forcible rape case. For some reason, this one is different? Why?

(5) In any event, likely none of these legal questions will be resolved in the short term. Unless the Kansas DA does a sudden about face and drops the charges. But I haven’t seen or heard anything to would give us any reason to expect that. The felony complaint is something that gets filed at the end of their deliberative process, not the beginning. Absent some reason to think otherwise, it must be presumed the Kansas DA is ready to go forward with whatever they have.
I believe the case still has to go to a preliminary hearing. The DA’s website has a roadmap of how cases play out and it specifically references a prelim. That could be the play here by the defense. Get the case in front of a judge and hope that the judge finds no pc by the end of January. That may be the most realistic route to getting TSJ back on the court this season.

This DA is clearly at odds with the courts there who do not respect her. She may not care if they dismiss her case since she can already claim they are out to get her. She still gets to campaign on going hard after campus rape like she did the first time she ran.
 
#158      
See Deon Thomas.
Will never forget watching Deon play in Iowa City after that, think it was '93 or '94. Everyone waving their car keys every time Deon shot a free throw. Never been around a more hostile crowd. Just vicious. I hated Iowa before that game, hated them way more after. But I was a young back then, a college kid, I've matured since, had kids, 30 years have gone by....and I somehow hate Iowa even more now.
 
#159      
I believe we have this.
I believe we have the training (player training on sex harassment)....

in this case, ....given we have a suspension,.... the past training Shannon received apparently was not effective.
 
#160      
Will never forget watching Deon play in Iowa City after that, think it was '93 or '94. Everyone waving their car keys every time Deon shot a free throw. Never been around a more hostile crowd. Just vicious. I hated Iowa before that game, hated them way more after. But I was a young back then, a college kid, I've matured since, had kids, 30 years have gone by....and I somehow hate Iowa even more now.
Like my Audit professor once said. Iowa is for all the kids who couldn't get into U of I, anyways.
 
#161      
Too much here to respond to individually. Instead, here is a long and tedious legal post that I would recommend skipping or blocking if you are bored to death with this stuff by now...

...(2) The nature of what this case actually involves in terms of the factual allegations will likely only become clear after it is presented to the grand jury. (As I said in an earlier post, the police or DA could have issued a press release that provided some explanation of what crime they believe occurred but they opted not to do that, which is a judgment call I find highly questionable and unprofessional, but in any event, that’s what they did.) Grand jury proceedings are always secret. But if they vote to induct, the charges in the indictment (which is not secret) will be an indication of what actual crime or crimes are being alleged. That’s the roadmap going forward. Also, the grand jury will typically be instructed to charge every crime that is supported by the evidence, including any less serious charges. That is done for procedural reasons and generally it is not significant in and of itself. If you ever look at an indictment for a murder case, there will typically also be numerous weapons possession counts tagged on too. It doesn’t mean the prosecution thinks they can’t prove murder or want to plead the case out with a weapons charge. The indictment is meant to be inclusive of everything. Every defendant has a constitutional right to be charged by a grand jury indictment for all felony counts. A person cannot be convicted of a crime at trial that was not charged in the indictment (unless the charge is by definition a lesser-included offense)...
Thanks for the in-depth post. What I'm wondering about is the bolded above vs. what the longtime lurker/new poster @...INI! said on page two, which was "If we felt strongly about the serious felony charge, we would not accompany it with a much lesser misdemeanor charge and allow a jury the opportunity to forego the felony and find on the misdemeanor."

INI!'s statement made me feel hopeful, like the prosecution was just throwing at the wall whatever might stick; the bolded made me feel like there's no reason to be hopeful about the "extra" charges being there.
 
#162      
Thanks for the in-depth post. What I'm wondering about is the bolded above vs. what the longtime lurker/new poster @...INI! said on page two, which was "If we felt strongly about the serious felony charge, we would not accompany it with a much lesser misdemeanor charge and allow a jury the opportunity to forego the felony and find on the misdemeanor."

INI!'s statement made me feel hopeful, like the prosecution was just throwing at the wall whatever might stick; the bolded made me feel like there's no reason to be hopeful about the "extra" charges being there.

But then we also have 04-05 who pointed out that Kansas law does not require grand jury at all.
 
#164      

GrayGhost77

Centennial, CO
It's NYE and everyone's drinking. Brave yourselves for more nuanced, well-formed takes.
Typing Typo GIF
 
#167      
Thanks for the in-depth post. What I'm wondering about is the bolded above vs. what the longtime lurker/new poster @...INI! said on page two, which was "If we felt strongly about the serious felony charge, we would not accompany it with a much lesser misdemeanor charge and allow a jury the opportunity to forego the felony and find on the misdemeanor."

INI!'s statement made me feel hopeful, like the prosecution was just throwing at the wall whatever might stick; the bolded made me feel like there's no reason to be hopeful about the "extra" charges being there.

Since 04-05 pointed out to me that Kansas does not require a grand jury indictment, I have to back off my assertions about charging the misdemeanor. Apparently in Kansas the defendant can demand a preliminary hearing or waive it but in either case the prosecution can go to trial on nothing but a complaint. So my assumptions in that regard were all wrong. Another reason not to put much stock in whatever some message board rando like me has to say.

If the misdemeanor charge is not a lesser included offense of the felony rape charge, then I believe there are reasons to include it in the charging document rather than opt for the “go felony or go home” approach. I don’t necessarily agree with @…INI! that the prosecution would never charge the lesser crime if they were confident about the strength of the case on the greater, at least in a sex crimes case. It is generally going to be very important to the sex crime victim that there is a conviction, even it’s it only for the lesser offense. Without a conviction, the defendant would also not have to register as a sex offender. Another explanation might be that the misdemeanor is a lesser included offense and the prosecutor knows from experience that the court will definitely charge the jury on that count anyway. The third and probably more likeky reason is that the DA is not, in fact, super confident in the felony charge.
 
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