UNLV 89, Illinois 82 POSTGAME

#201      
The 800-pound gorilla in the room here is that whatever healthy games are left in Leron Black's career + Michael Finke + Spicy G, who does not have the skill level to play at this level, frankly + Kipper Nichols playing out of position + Matic Vesel, playing even further out of position + recruits we don't have = the frontcourt for the forseeable future for the Brad Underwood era.

That's a five-alarm fire. That could ruin everything. If we could trade Ayo for Conditt or Castleton right now, that would be a no brainer, despite neither player being as good.
 
#202      

Deleted member 236589

D
Guest
The 800-pound gorilla in the room here is that whatever healthy games are left in Leron Black's career + Michael Finke + Spicy G, who does not have the skill level to play at this level, frankly + Kipper Nichols playing out of position + Matic Vesel, playing even further out of position + recruits we don't have = the frontcourt for the forseeable future for the Brad Underwood era.

That's a five-alarm fire. That could ruin everything. If we could trade Ayo for Conditt or Castleton right now, that would be a no brainer, despite neither player being as good.

You'd trade a five star guard, the favorite for Mr. Basketball in the state, a probable McD All American and a player from the MIF....for two projects

Boy....I'd love to be a GM dealing with you.
 
#203      

mattcoldagelli

The Transfer Portal with Do Not Contact Tag
The 800-pound gorilla in the room here is that whatever healthy games are left in Leron Black's career + Michael Finke + Spicy G, who does not have the skill level to play at this level, frankly + Kipper Nichols playing out of position + Matic Vesel, playing even further out of position + recruits we don't have = the frontcourt for the forseeable future for the Brad Underwood era.

Spicy G is raw, but I've really liked what I've seen out of him. We need more of him now, IMO.

If we could trade Ayo for Conditt or Castleton right now, that would be a no brainer, despite neither player being as good.

Maybe your worst take ever.
 
#204      

EJ33

San Francisco
The 800-pound gorilla in the room here is that whatever healthy games are left in Leron Black's career + Michael Finke + Spicy G, who does not have the skill level to play at this level, frankly + Kipper Nichols playing out of position + Matic Vesel, playing even further out of position + recruits we don't have = the frontcourt for the forseeable future for the Brad Underwood era.

That's a five-alarm fire. That could ruin everything. If we could trade Ayo for Conditt or Castleton right now, that would be a no brainer, despite neither player being as good.

:doh:
 
#205      
The 800-pound gorilla in the room here is that whatever healthy games are left in Leron Black's career + Michael Finke + Spicy G, who does not have the skill level to play at this level, frankly + Kipper Nichols playing out of position + Matic Vesel, playing even further out of position + recruits we don't have = the frontcourt for the forseeable future for the Brad Underwood era.

That's a five-alarm fire. That could ruin everything. If we could trade Ayo for Conditt or Castleton right now, that would be a no brainer, despite neither player being as good.

While we remain thin in the frontcourt and need to upgrade overall talent (especially at SF/PF/C), I have seen Conditt play and would not not trade him for Ayo in a million years.
 
#206      
Spicy G is raw, but I've really liked what I've seen out of him.

Please expand. We've seen such limited minutes that I'm certainly not carving anything in the stone that Greg's hands appear to be made out of.

Maybe your worst take ever.

Ayo is much better than those players, but you can't have nothing up front and win in the Big Ten. College basketball history is littered with awesome guards who did everything but win.
 
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#208      

Deleted member 631370

D
Guest
The 800-pound gorilla in the room here is that whatever healthy games are left in Leron Black's career + Michael Finke + Spicy G, who does not have the skill level to play at this level, frankly + Kipper Nichols playing out of position + Matic Vesel, playing even further out of position + recruits we don't have = the frontcourt for the forseeable future for the Brad Underwood era.

That's a five-alarm fire. That could ruin everything. If we could trade Ayo for Conditt or Castleton right now, that would be a no brainer, despite neither player being as good.


Fine, I'll pile on.

There is absolutely no way in hell I'd trade Ayo for BOTH Castleton and Conditt -- much less one or the other.

Would I trade Ayo for Brian Penn Johnson? That would give me something to think about......
 
#209      

IlliniMed

Lillington, N.C.
Please expand. We've seen so little that I'm certainly not carving anything in the stone that Greg's hands appear to be made out of.

is there anyone else on this board that is as pessimistic about life than you? If you actually paid attention, he's disruptive on the defensive end, can move, and he can rebound both defensively and offensively.
 
#213      
According to 247, Groce had two 13th ranked class (2011&2013) nationally and one 15th ranked class (2015), and we have a 29th ranked class this year. Is this "not enough talent" to even make one NCAA tournament :confused:
2011
Tracey Abrams
Nnana Egwu
Mike Shaw
Myke Henry
Devin Langford
Ibby Djimde

2013
Kendrick Nunn
Malcom Hill
Jaylon Tate
Maverick Morgan
Austin Colbert

2015
Jalen Coleman-Lands
D J Williams
Aaron Jordan
Darius Paul

Looking at those classes and who actually played (and was productive) I would say no, It's not enough talent.
 
#214      
I would view what you're describing as a re-iteration of the 2010 expectations, built off of the low-expectations busting 2009 season. We were ranked in the preseason in 2010 too, and beat several ranked teams, were comfortably in the tourney as of mid-February, and to admit something I was angrily arguing against at the time, we really deserved to make it in the end. We showed a ton in that season. Not good, scrappy efforts. Big, big wins.

And JFWIW, we weren't picked top 3 in the Big Ten media poll in 2011, even with that lofty AP ranking.

I'm not saying that Richmond and Leonard were irrelevant to that consideration, but it had far more to do with Demetri McCamey being preseason first team All-Big Ten as a senior.

Put it this way, forget what our final record is this season, what we are ranked next year in the media poll will be determined by where we look like we are over the heart of Big Ten season this year. Not what the score is with 3:00 left, but how sustained a stretch of quality wins we're able to get. Which makes perfect sense. A young team that returns everybody will probably look like itself the next year, but just somewhat more often like the better version of itself. We haven't seen a "better version". Yet.



I'm 1001% behind Brad Underwood and the direction of the basketball program. But we're bad right now. Just like we're bad right now in football. I wouldn't dream of firing either coach until 2019-20 at the very earliest.

John Groce took a team with which all of these lack of talent statements were made (picked 9th of 12 in the Big Ten) and had them ranked in the Top 10 as of this date his first season. Which is to say that that sort of instant impact turnaround is both completely possible and plausible and only mildly relevant to what happens going forward beyond that.

Go get better.

Most on here would agree we're not bad right now, but obviously not where we want to be. In simplest terms and not to get deep into stats, all 4 games we lost were only by single digits which is much better than most expected. And for sure, we are getting better already each and every game.
 
#215      
According to 247, Groce had two 13th ranked class (2011&2013) nationally and one 15th ranked class (2015), and we have a 29th ranked class this year. Is this "not enough talent" to even make one NCAA tournament :confused:

You can't just count stars and the team with the most wins. It's experience too. In our top 10 that play, we have 4 freshmen, 1 junior with very little court time and 2 sophomores who only played a lot during the 2nd 1/2 of the year last year. That's 7 of 10. Now add in that everyone is running a new system on both sides of the ball.

BTW, what does Groce's '11 class have to do with the '18 team, but if you're talking about Groce's failures, that's old news. We've moved on.
 
#216      
2011
Tracey Abrams
Nnana Egwu
Mike Shaw
Myke Henry
Devin Langford
Ibby Djimde

2013
Kendrick Nunn
Malcom Hill
Jaylon Tate
Maverick Morgan
Austin Colbert

2015
Jalen Coleman-Lands
D J Williams
Aaron Jordan
Darius Paul

Looking at those classes and who actually played (and was productive) I would say no, It's not enough talent.

I would also say that some of that talent was overrated and also that had Nunn not gotten in trouble, last year's team would've made the NCAAs. Thankfully for the future of the program, that didn't happen.
 
#217      
Please expand. We've seen such limited minutes that I'm certainly not carving anything in the stone that Greg's hands appear to be made out of.



Ayo is much better than those players, but you can't have nothing up front and win in the Big Ten. College basketball history is littered with awesome guards who did everything but win.

....and then there is Villanova who started 4 guards and won the whole enchilada.
 
#218      
BTW, what does Groce's '11 class have to do with the '18 team,

Well, Abrams came pretty close
 
#219      
You'd trade a five star guard, the favorite for Mr. Basketball in the state, a probable McD All American and a player from the MIF....for two projects

Boy....I'd love to be a GM dealing with you.

I agree, going with just 2 players (Black/Finke) at PF/C will not work and throws everyone out of position.

Fine, I'll pile on.

There is absolutely no way in hell I'd trade Ayo for BOTH Castleton and Conditt -- much less one or the other.

Would I trade Ayo for Brian Penn Johnson? That would give me something to think about......

Agree on Castleton and Conditt in a million years and also say that I wouldn't make the trade for BPJ either because of what in-roads into the CPL mean down the road. I would also lean to a really good PG over a C, so even on balance I wouldn't make that trade.
 
#220      
1. We are not going to finish 5-13 in the Big Ten. Are we playing better than we're currently playing? Of course not (logic demands this response). Will we play better in the future? I believe so. I still think this team can make the tournament.

2. This team could turn the corner at any moment. I want that moment to be during this season, but I know there are no guarantees that we figure it out this year. Either way, I expect a big leap forward next year. I think this team + Ayo - Alstork can win a lot of games. Ayo will help, but I don't see him as a key missing piece. Another big who can help shore up our front court would be huge.

A 6'5" PG who is tough to stop getting into the lane won't be a big piece next year? I beg to differ.
 
#221      

JFGsCoffeeMug

BU:1 Trash cans:0
Chicago
A 6'5" PG who is tough to stop getting into the lane won't be a big piece next year? I beg to differ.

He will be a big piece, but he's not what this team is currently lacking. He is an improvement on a position of strength, not a piece that plugs a hole.
 
#222      
The 800-pound gorilla in the room here is that whatever healthy games are left in Leron Black's career + Michael Finke + Spicy G, who does not have the skill level to play at this level, frankly + Kipper Nichols playing out of position + Matic Vesel, playing even further out of position + recruits we don't have = the frontcourt for the forseeable future for the Brad Underwood era.

That's a five-alarm fire. That could ruin everything. If we could trade Ayo for Conditt or Castleton right now, that would be a no brainer, despite neither player being as good.

The 2018 recruiting class isn’t over yet. There also may be a 5th year senior in our future.
 
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#223      
Looking at those classes and who actually played (and was productive) I would say no, It's not enough talent.

"Talent" defined as post-hoc magical pixie dust which explains everything that happened after the fact will just never die on this board will it?

....and then there is Villanova who started 4 guards and won the whole enchilada.

Put a senior Daniel Ochefu on this team (or better yet next year's team) and it would be a whole different story.
 
#224      

skyIdub

Winged Warrior
1q6k3e.jpg
 
#225      
2011
Tracey Abrams
Nnana Egwu
Mike Shaw
Myke Henry
Devin Langford
Ibby Djimde

2013
Kendrick Nunn
Malcom Hill
Jaylon Tate
Maverick Morgan
Austin Colbert

2015
Jalen Coleman-Lands
D J Williams
Aaron Jordan
Darius Paul

Looking at those classes and who actually played (and was productive) I would say no, It's not enough talent.

I would argue failure in player development, program planning (a lot of short-sighted transfers), in-game coaching, and securing depth at key positions (all of them are staff errors) are the reasons for not making NCAA tourney. The talent might be overrated but those are tourney-bound groups without a doubt (at least when they are seniors).

Making the tournament once in a while is not that hard and is doable even with some veteran 3-stars