War Chant has been retired

UofI08 · Aug 29, 2017

mattcoldagelli said:
But you're treating them as two standalone things - they are not. The War Chant and the Chief go together.

They did until the Chief was removed 10 years ago. And even then, it's not like the Chief was present during basketball starting lineups or football third downs.

Illinois' hands were tied on the Chief decision by the NCAA. They had to remove him or risk losing revenue. This decision was all on their own, had no significant support, never really discussed in public, and poorly released.

KBLEE · Aug 29, 2017

mattcoldagelli said:
Do you think it's a foregone conclusion the NCAA is going to go to the mattresses in order to assign outsized and inaccurate Native American significance to the term "Fighting Illini"? Maybe you do think that. I don't.

I think it's more than a bit naive to think of it as less than distinct possibility.

Illiniaaron · Aug 29, 2017

Can anyone think of another college athletic program that is not allowed any visual or audio symbols/songs that connect to their nickname as part of rooting for that team? If all these things are offensive then certainly the moniker "Fighting Illini" must be offensive too. Let's just change the name and be done with it.

mattcoldagelli · Aug 29, 2017

KBLEE said:
I think it's more than a bit naive to think of it as less than distinct possibility.

Which is why I used the words "foregone conclusion"

IlliniJim20 · Aug 29, 2017

rbachhuber said:
Let's face it. The name "Fighting Illini" is our Alamo. It's offensive to some people. They will come for it and there will be no battle. Just a Chancellor laying down arms in the name of political correctness.

Only a matter of time.

Just the thought of this

:tsk:

How do you fight ignorance? Just because "you" (generic person not you specifically) are offended because you think Fghting Illini is a Native American reference and therefore offensive, how can that be corrected?

Fighting Illini should never be dropped. It is in reference to WWI veterans. To drop that name would be offensive and insulting the them.

My fear is it will not matter. Those who are offended will scream loud enough to be heard?

Love the back and forth by the way. Disagreements, but mostly respectful.

sacraig · Aug 29, 2017

Illiini said:
If there's a way to have the Peoria buy in--why not have a tribe member, or one of the other competitive fancy feather dancer perform, in a special Orange and Blue regalia, which would be an honor and a chance for him to dance in front of a much larger audience than ever before (national TV?)--I would be delighted, and opponents, well, disarmed. Leave the Chief retired, and welcome, I dunno, the Illini Spirit, or Illini Warrior.

This is what I never understood. I've generally been an ardent supporter of the Chief as a concept, but I also recognize that, for those who actually are members of the related culture, it's historical inaccuracies could be viewed as more caricature than respect, and therefore offensive. What I really don't get is why, as a university, there was no attempt (at least not publicly) to turn the whole thing into an opportunity to educate. Make it a teaching moment.

If the Peoria tribe's biggest beef really was that the spectacle was a caricature and not the honorific many of us considered it, why not work with them to overhaul the dance, the lore, the regalia, and everything else so that it would be more authentic and more respectful? You could do this while keeping the spirit of the tradition alive, create a scholarship program for a student of Native American descent to perform the dance. Perhaps also create a museum on campus to educate the public about the history of the Illiniwek/Inoka. This could have been very educational and constructive for those on all sides.

sacraig · Aug 29, 2017

drwillini said:
What I do care very much about is that we talked about this for a year.

This shouldn't be worrisome. If anything, it should be somewhat comforting to know that the administration doesn't just do things on a whim. At any rate, it probably took a year because they probably had like a one hour meeting on it once every month or two, not because it was an all-encompassing part of their daily job.

drwillini said:
Our beloved alma mater is slipping in many meaningful rankings. In engineering we used to compete with UC Berkeley for #3 behind MIT and Stanford. We were the birthplace of HAL, the internet (sorry snowflakes, it wasn't Al Gore), and Netscape. We were the home of the two time Nobel prize winner in Physics that invented the transistor and discovered superconductivity. We were clearly the best engineering school between Boston and San Francisco.

Now we will soon be third in the Big 10 in engineering (already behind scUM, and soon Purdue).

First, the College of Engineering is still that program you describe. It is still internationally respected. It is still in the top 10 of the rankings you seem to hold in such high esteem. I don't see what you are worrying about here.

Second, those rankings are not exactly the end-all metric for program quality. They're a PR tool, and the difference between being ranked 3 and ranked 6 is essentially nil. Michigan and Purdue have both always been awesome engineering schools and have always been ranked right up there with us. This is not some new development. Just because we don't like their football and basketball teams doesn't mean their academic programs aren't good.

sacraig · Aug 29, 2017

drwillini said:
Maybe I am mis-remembering things but it seems to me that in the 70s and 80s there was clear separation between Illinois and UM/Purdue. I do probably care too much about the rankings, but having said that in grad school engineering we are actually now 9th, behind both Purdue and UM. Agree that there is a lot of noise on an imperfect signal, but I think you are whistling past the graveyard if you don't see a trend.

My perspective comes from spending a lot of time in various engineering programs around the country. I got my BS at Illinois, of course. I got a PhD at Texas A&M, and now I work at a Pac-12 school. I can tell you that everywhere I have been and every colleague I know from other schools still considers Illinois to be one of the handful of elite engineering programs.

Every one of them also considers Purdue and Michigan to be in that same group, academically-speaking, and that is just as true for the young guys as it is for all of the old profs at these schools. This phenomenon is nothing new. If there is movement in the rankings, that is often just a result of a larger PR effort/expenditure by the relevant school, as the biggest criteria in those rankings is essentially a poll that amounts to a popularity contest.

BWBW · Aug 29, 2017

drwillini said:
Maybe I am mis-remembering things but it seems to me that in the 70s and 80s there was clear separation between Illinois and UM/Purdue. I do probably care too much about the rankings, but having said that in grad school engineering we are actually now 9th, behind both Purdue and UM. Agree that there is a lot of noise on an imperfect signal, but I think you are whistling past the graveyard if you don't see a trend.

FWIW (2 cents maybe) I agree with you. I remember talking to an Illinois grad hired by Purdue to head one of the departments there. His task was to get Purdue up to the same level as Illinois. He characterized Purdue as a great school for turning out engineers who could make better toasters. The goal was to make it a great research institution.

Illiini · Aug 29, 2017

sacraig said:
You could do this while keeping the spirit of the tradition alive, create a scholarship program for a student of Native American descent to perform the dance. Perhaps also create a museum on campus to educate the public about the history of the Illiniwek/Inoka. This could have been very educational and constructive for those on all sides.

I've been promoting this for years, literally. I don't think a dancer would necessarily have to be a student, and in fact, inviting a Native dancer to perform in honor of an increased understanding between students and Native tribes would be an honor, I'd think. Fancy feather regalia could be developed between the university and, say, the Peoria, bringing elements from both to the final product.

I have also supported "exchange programs" between the Peoria and the university, along with service projects, with students going to Oklahoma. Students would learn more in a week or two helping out with projects on tribal properties than they ever would in classroom indoctrinations, with benefits to the tribal properties as well.

Remember that the Peoria were willing to work with the university on reaching some sort of understanding, but previous chancellor Janet Wise refused outright (though to give credit where credit is due, the scholarship program was under her watch).

There is a way for everyone to win--except those who are deadset against any kind of relationship--if we are willing to work together. Fancy feather on the field? Everyone wins. https://youtu.be/ovlDKOWoep0

South Farms · Aug 29, 2017

for many reasons , I get a sour feeling that the admin wants the indian, or native American imagery -- any sight , any sound and any whatever, totally erased from the university.

Its a matter of months or a few years the 3 in 1 will be canned and with it any semblance that the Fighting Illini is connected to the states ancient past.

we will become the Ax Swinging Abes or Rail Splitting Abes , or heaven forbid, the Jailbird Pols.

Its indeed a sad state of affairs in C-U, in Springfield, and in the City. This state is doomed. No joke.

Illwinsagain · Aug 29, 2017

UofI08 said:
They did until the Chief was removed 10 years ago. And even then, it's not like the Chief was present during basketball starting lineups or football third downs.

Illinois' hands were tied on the Chief decision by the NCAA. They had to remove him or risk losing revenue. This decision was all on their own, had no significant support, never really discussed in public, and poorly released.

Reality, we were going to lose revenue either way, either from hosting NCAA post season events or from the alumni.

Illwinsagain · Aug 29, 2017

sacraig said:
This is what I never understood. I've generally been an ardent supporter of the Chief as a concept, but I also recognize that, for those who actually are members of the related culture, it's historical inaccuracies could be viewed as more caricature than respect, and therefore offensive. What I really don't get is why, as a university, there was no attempt (at least not publicly) to turn the whole thing into an opportunity to educate. Make it a teaching moment.

If the Peoria tribe's biggest beef really was that the spectacle was a caricature and not the honorific many of us considered it, why not work with them to overhaul the dance, the lore, the regalia, and everything else so that it would be more authentic and more respectful? You could do this while keeping the spirit of the tradition alive, create a scholarship program for a student of Native American descent to perform the dance. Perhaps also create a museum on campus to educate the public about the history of the Illiniwek/Inoka. This could have been very educational and constructive for those on all sides.

+infinity

South Farms · Aug 29, 2017

Illwinsagain said:
+infinity

because deep down, the admin then and now, are all beholden to the same political correctness , and want to cut any and all ties to the native American past of our schools name and images.

They simply don't want to continue it. they wont say that out loud, but way too much action and behavior has been done to make that obvious. They wont ever say that. but actions speak way louder than words.

I get the feeling , from reading Whitmans letter, that he was against the removal of the war chant, but he of course cant say that in public.

ILL_INI · Aug 29, 2017

sacraig said:
If the Peoria tribe's biggest beef really was that the spectacle was a caricature and not the honorific many of us considered it, why not work with them to overhaul the dance, the lore, the regalia, and everything else so that it would be more authentic and more respectful?

Because I don't believe it is possible. The authentic dances and music are religious and soulful, not something to fire up the crowd. The way I had it explained to me is if there was a student dressed up as a Catholic priest or bishop who processed in and the crowd went wild when he genuflected or raised the communion host or something. Sure, it could be authentic and a teaching moment, but it would be very inappropriate.

Most of the activists don't want to promote the stereotypical idea of 19th century Indians while they are suffering with unemployment and drug addiction on their reservations.

chiefrunninggame · Aug 29, 2017

This erosion, and the inevitability of it going further makes me less interested in Illinois athletics. I don't want to have anybody hurt or offended by the symbols and traditions of the university - but to be bullied by the PR of today's political climate - makes me care less. I'll still make time to go to a game (to tailgate). Already don't watch as often on television. I was (more or less) happy to watch bad teams with traditions intact, whatever that's worth.

sacraig · Aug 29, 2017

ILL_INI said:
Because I don't believe it is possible. The authentic dances and music are religious and soulful, not something to fire up the crowd. The way I had it explained to me is if there was a student dressed up as a Catholic priest or bishop who processed in and the crowd went wild when he genuflected or raised the communion host or something. Sure, it could be authentic and a teaching moment, but it would be very inappropriate.

Most of the activists don't want to promote the stereotypical idea of 19th century Indians while they are suffering with unemployment and drug addiction on their reservations.

That's an interesting perspective. If such conversations were had between the University and the Peoria, I wish they had been made public. Of course there is a certain section of any fanbase who won't really listen to those kinds of things and will be upset either way, but it would have been nice to at least hear about these sorts of discussions and the reasoning from the two parties in question.

That said, I suppose I am not as convinced it would be futile as you are. The Chief's dance originated as an interpretation of fancy dance, which was non-spiritual (for some rather unfortunate reasons) and is something that Native Americans regularly perform for the general public. It was modified and reinterpreted over the years. He also wore genuine Lakota Sioux regalia rather than Peoria. If tribes nationwide already perform the more authentic dance in public, I don't see why replacing the regalia with that of the Peoria and rewriting the dance to be authentic would necessarily be a non-starter.

Again, maybe this was discussed with them at the time, but if so, why didn't they tell us about it? Why didn't they publicize that fact and discuss the reasons for the decision not to go that route? Again, that's a missed teaching moment, even if it didn't involve keeping a revised Chief.

Regarding the problems on modern reservations, they are real, they are tragic, and they are many. However, effects to connect the rest of the country with those people can only help the situation.

DaChief4ever · Aug 29, 2017

DrewD007 said:
Josh Whitman Open Letter

So glad we have him as our athletic director.

I don't know if I would consider Josh " one of ours". I expected some more support from Josh for the War Chant...now it appears he's part of the "insiders". I once worked for a large company that had a distribution warehouse with about 120 employees....that had the canned music playing softly over the PA system....one day was Classic Rock, next day Country, next day Oldies,etc. Exactly 6 employees took a petition to management to dump the " Country Music."....as it was offensive, etc. 6 Employees moved the dial and the company dumped the Country Music channel. I am not a country music fan...but you have a similar situation here...small band of insiders , seeking NO alumni or student feelings on the matter.....BOOM.

Illwinsagain · Aug 29, 2017

ILL_INI said:
Because I don't believe it is possible. The authentic dances and music are religious and soulful, not something to fire up the crowd. The way I had it explained to me is if there was a student dressed up as a Catholic priest or bishop who processed in and the crowd went wild when he genuflected or raised the communion host or something. Sure, it could be authentic and a teaching moment, but it would be very inappropriate.

Most of the activists don't want to promote the stereotypical idea of 19th century Indians while they are suffering with unemployment and drug addiction on their reservations.

I appreciate your comments.

Illiini · Aug 29, 2017

ILL_INI said:
The authentic dances and music are religious and soulful, not something to fire up the crowd.

Yes and no. The fancy feather dancing is done competitively, so unless you have competition communion in your church, I don't think there's a direct parallel. Not that dancers don't dedicate or otherwise place special import on their dance, but you know, sometimes football teams win one for the Gipper.

I think, however, it might be best to let them decide that, rather than take a white-man-knows-better approach that many seem to be doing. They do seem to get the crowd going at competitions. https://youtu.be/4o_X0BPlPDc

Lovethechief78 · Aug 29, 2017

Ransom Stoddard said:
To the bolded, here's his quote on Three-in-One:

"No systematic discussions" <> "No discussions"

That doesn't mean that 3 in 1 is going away anytime soon, but that quote is not in any way a denial that there's been discussions.

There have been ALL KINDS of discussions about retiring/significantly altering the 3 in 1!! Remember the FOIA request back in 2011-2012?? It turned up some REALLY interesting emails from the so-called powers that be..

:chief:

ugottabjoshinme · Aug 30, 2017

IlliniJim20 said:
Just the thought of this :tsk:

How do you fight ignorance? Just because "you" (generic person not you specifically) are offended because you think Fghting Illini is a Native American reference and therefore offensive, how can that be corrected?

Fighting Illini should never be dropped. It is in reference to WWI veterans. To drop that name would be offensive and insulting the them.

My fear is it will not matter. Those who are offended will scream loud enough to be heard?

Love the back and forth by the way. Disagreements, but mostly respectful.

I think it would be really easy to introduce some sort of soldier type mascot that honors WWI veterans and ties into the Fighting Illini history and allows the school to keep the Figting Illini name.

The problem is that nothing like this was ever done when the Chief was retired. The Chief was gone and the 3 in 1 was continued to be played and at that point it was really being played to remember the Chief, which makes it really hard for the school to move on from him

IlliniOllie · Aug 30, 2017

ugottabjoshinme said:
I think it would be really easy to introduce some sort of soldier type mascot that honors WWI veterans and ties into the Fighting Illini history and allows the school to keep the Figting Illini name.

The problem is that nothing like this was ever done when the Chief was retired. The Chief was gone and the 3 in 1 was continued to be played and at that point it was really being played to remember the Chief, which makes it really hard for the school to move on from him

I like the idea, but that's way too militaristic for these people. *If* something is proposed, it'll have to be completely and utterly non-"offensive" to everyone and everything.

ChiefIlliniwek · Aug 30, 2017

DaChief4ever said:
I don't know if I would consider Josh " one of ours". I expected some more support from Josh for the War Chant...now it appears he's part of the "insiders". I once worked for a large company that had a distribution warehouse with about 120 employees....that had the canned music playing softly over the PA system....one day was Classic Rock, next day Country, next day Oldies,etc. Exactly 6 employees took a petition to management to dump the " Country Music."....as it was offensive, etc. 6 Employees moved the dial and the company dumped the Country Music channel. I am not a country music fan...but you have a similar situation here...small band of insiders , seeking NO alumni or student feelings on the matter.....BOOM.

But that's how a business is. If you aren't the main man in charge of the entire company and you publicly denounce the decisions made by your superiors... that isn't good for you. It also makes your entire company look bad. He addressed the situation and, in a level headed manner, revealed that he might not like the decision, but understands it and wants to move forward. That's the exact kind of message I want from the man in charge of the Athletic department.

While I agree that it sucks the War Chant has gone the way of the Chief (which will always frustrate me), it would suck even more if we had an AD that was suddenly on thin ice because of insubordination.

And by the way, if more people felt the way your 6 coworkers did about country music... the world would be a better place because country music sucks. :thumb:

Ransom Stoddard · Aug 30, 2017

IlliniOllie said:
I like the idea, but that's way too militaristic for these people. *If* something is proposed, it'll have to be completely and utterly non-"offensive" to everyone and everything.

^^^^^this. When there's a change (not if) it's going to be something so completely ridiculous it will make Syracuse's Orange look edgy.

I'm all for not being blatantly offensive, but a big chunk of our society needs to drink a hearty cup of "suck it up, buttercup."

War Chant has been retired

Ordained Dudeist Priest