Deleted member 4333
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Key phrase: "It's offensive to some people." As long as that's one of the criteria, nothing is off the table.
War Chant has been retired
mattcoldagelli
- The Transfer Portal with Do Not Contact Tag
Right. So pick your battles, as opposed to turning every skirmish into your Alamo.
SublimeBeast
- Dieterich, IL
http://deadspin.com/illinois-athletics-director-i-love-our-war-chant-but-1798521068
Comments are interesting...
Comments are interesting...
I'm borrowing this line. Well said.
TheFlyingIllini1317
- Chicago, IL
Most Deadspin commenters are so self-righteous. They just pat themselves on the back, and say "Look how not racist I am", "I'm one of the good guys!" God forbid you have a contrary opinion you'll automatically be called a racist. A term that is too overused and water downs the value of it when it is actually needed.
As a kid I loved Native Americans culture and learning about it in school, the fact the university had the chief as a symbol made me love the school even more. I find it hard to believe the clapping and music is racist. Does anyone do it not for the team and to make their race feel superior/degrade another culture? I doubt it.
I have a feeling anything associated with native culture (rightly or wrongly) will automatically be deemed racist even though it clearly isn't. Common sense on these issues would be appreciated.
The major difference between the Tomahawk Chop and the War Chant is the crowd interaction and it's pretty significant. The Tomahawk Chop is a mimic of an actual tomahawk chopping motion. It's also accompanied by the "oooooo" chant.
The U of I war chant is literally just clapping to the beat. No offensive motions or sounds.
Maybe I'm naive, but I'd rather have a patient and methodical approach/statement from the AD rather than just releasing a statement willy nilly. You only get one chance at your official statement, when we look at back this in a couple years, it won't matter that it came like 36 hours after the university let it slip that they were stopping the song.
That's really the depressing part about all of this, and all of the "cultural appropriation" stigma. Maybe we weren't recognizing American Indians in the most appropriate ways with the Chief and all the other traditions, but declaring any reference to any other culture as "racist" means that we're bound to forget ancient cultures all together.
And they blew that one chance. Apparently people started finding out when someone in the administration stopped students from doing the drumbeat at a soccer game. For a supposedly well-discussed and important issue, you'd think they would've had a well-planned, well-stated release of the news. Instead, they decided to enforce the ban before it was official and had to dump the news on Friday and release a statement 3 days later after getting backlash.
BZuppke
- Plainfield
As an ardent chief supporter and admirer/student of Native American culture and history, it saddens me that we're losing our history and traditions. That being said, we're swimming against the cultural tide in this country to fight over this and all the negative media that would ensue. We have to draw a hard line at Fighting Illini and it will be difficult. Despite the fairly recent discovery that the name derives from WWI Illini, it is in fact the case that the nickname always derived from Native American culture and people thought of it that way. The chief was not developed in a vacuum. All of our music which predates WWI includes faux Native American words etc. Again I don't think too many native Americans are emotionally scarred by 'oskee Wow Wow' or 'cha he cha ha' but it will be challenged eventually. As an aside, the NCAA are a bunch of hypocrites. If it is offensive, it is offensive, even if you pay the tribe a lot of money.
Frankly, because we suck and don't have the rabid fan support and huge $$$ that Florida State does. F$U has a historically great program and currently the #3 team in the country. Any attempt to change the Seminole on his horse or their music or the chop or whatever would be met with a crap-storm unlike any other, from the Florida statehouse through the administration and on down.
There isn't anywhere near that level of support at Illinois. Not in the state government, not in the administration, and not from the fans. The few remaining fans will grumble and make noise, but this athletic department is at a historic low point after 10 years of poor performance in both revenue sports (and a couple outliers aside, 25+ years in football). There just isn't the resistance or support, so we're an easy target.
If our last 25 years had been like Wisconsin's, and were going into the football season ranked in the top 10, with consistently solid to great performance in both revenue sports over that time, War Chant wouldn't be going anywhere.
i wouldn't call Whitman's letter a joke, but i do agree he screwed this up by not releasing this (or a similar letter) BEFORE he began hearing from the peanut gallery. if he had issued this letter timely, it would have seemed like leadership. however, issuing the letter now makes him look like a spin doctor. not a good look. i've been very impressed with JW for a long time, but he didn't handle this well IMO.
there are (IMO) certain "cultural appropriation" arguments that have some merit (or at least are not unreasonable and deserve honest consideration), but, as with most things, it gets taken way too far. the problem in this context is that EVERY GROUP borrowed/stole something from some other person/group. if you take this nonsense to its logical conclusion, we'll be left with no language, art, music, architecture, science, etc. and our ability to live together will be fatally eroded. it'll be like the Tower of Babel, except applied to everything, not just spoken language.
Illiini
- In the land of the Nittany Lion
Um, do you know what happened at the Alamo, how it fit into the overall history of Texas independence? I think not. The Alamo was a delaying tactic, not a last stand, that allowed the ultimate victory at San Jacinto.
Santa Ana should have just left the Alamo defenders pinned down with a small garrison and marched forward with his main force. But then San Jacinto and the rest of the story.
If you want a better analogy from the Texas war for independence you might consider the Battle of Gonzales.I think that's more how those who don't like the "retiring" of the War Chant feel.
And comments are how those who applaud the banning of the War Chant view "our traditions." We're racists. And despite what Jones and Whitman say, that's the ultimate goal, and there is no compromising. It sounds an awful lot like if you want your health care, you can keep it. Or as Darth Vader told Leia, if you like your planet, you can keep it.
Deleted member 4333
D
Guest
Let's face it. The name "Fighting Illini" is our Alamo. It's offensive to some people. They will come for it and there will be no battle. Just a Chancellor laying down arms in the name of political correctness.
Only a matter of time.
Right, this isn't the NCAA at this point.
Good lord, do we need something good to happen for this athletic department. We've got six pages on War Chant and two pages on the first football game that's 5 days away.
What makes the War Chant drumline more offensive or distinctly Native American than Queen's We Will Rock You?
mattcoldagelli
- The Transfer Portal with Do Not Contact Tag
I agree and said this on page one of this thread.
I disagree. The Chancellor is on record in the N-G today saying the exact opposite of this. And again, all of you that are caterwauling about the "they" (the activists, the professors, etc.) apparently do not understand what happened to the Chief. "They" didn't do anything - the NCAA did.
Do you think it's a foregone conclusion the NCAA is going to go to the mattresses in order to assign outsized and inaccurate Native American significance to the term "Fighting Illini"? Maybe you do think that. I don't.
Illiini
- In the land of the Nittany Lion
If it were our Alamo, I wouldn't worry quite so much. Remember that the Texians won, and not to long after that, with a rout of Santa Ana at San Jacinto. The Alamo is now in downtown San Antonio. That's in Texas, not Mexico. If Jones and Whitman have a San Jacinto in mind, I'm in on it.
If there's a way to have the Peoria buy in--why not have a tribe member, or one of the other competitive fancy feather dancer perform, in a special Orange and Blue regalia, which would be an honor and a chance for him to dance in front of a much larger audience than ever before (national TV?)--I would be delighted, and opponents, well, disarmed. Leave the Chief retired, and welcome, I dunno, the Illini Spirit, or Illini Warrior.
https://youtu.be/HATkGyqwvss
Ransom Stoddard
Ordained Dudeist Priest
- Bloomington, IL
To the bolded, here's his quote on Three-in-One:
"No systematic discussions" <> "No discussions"
That doesn't mean that 3 in 1 is going away anytime soon, but that quote is not in any way a denial that there's been discussions.
Not to mention we've had a changing of the guard in leadership pretty often and the next person in charge may decide to "discuss".
I think these are 2 separate items. The NCAA had nothing to do with this decision.
The NCAA basically forced the Chief decision by banning us from holding any NCAA championship events until the Chief was gone.
This decision was made to acquiesce to the vocal minority without putting up any fight or giving supporters forewarning.
mattcoldagelli
- The Transfer Portal with Do Not Contact Tag
But you're treating them as two standalone things - they are not. The War Chant and the Chief go together.
My concern is that by removing Native American symbolism we are removing their memory and history from contemporary America. My understanding is that Illini was a collection of tribes, not a mockery such as the word "Indian" or "Redskin". The traditions always appeared respectful.
I think a small fragment of this change is not driven by Native American at all. There are agendas and causes that give people a purpose and I think this was the driver behind those that push pressure on an over reach of political correction.
I think a small fragment of this change is not driven by Native American at all. There are agendas and causes that give people a purpose and I think this was the driver behind those that push pressure on an over reach of political correction.