Winthrop 84, Illinois 80 OT POSTGAME

IlliniBus · Nov 22, 2016

Yes, we blew the 10 point lead with less than 3 minutes to go, but we had a 9+ lead at 5 different points in the game and never put them away. You stretch it out to 15-20 and it's a different ballgame.

14-2
38-29
43-34, 45-36
56-46
70-60

Also, I didn't read every post in this thread, but to those saying some of us are overreacting, it's not just about this game. It's what it means for the rest of the week and the season. This was the week where we were going to find out what we had this year, if Groce could finally put it all together. We just failed the warmup and now are most likely looking at two losses in NYC.

Do that and it would take quite the turnaround in Big Ten play to make the tournament. But, oh yeah, Groce has never finished above .500 in the Big Ten, placing t-7th, t-8th, t-7th, and 12th in his four years here and picked to be I believe 10th this year.

From 1980 until Weber's last season, we made the NCAA tournament 24 out 32 years (3 out of every 4) and never missed it more than 2 years in a row. Groce has already missed it 3 in a row and is working on #4. Yes, I still support the players and staff and maybe this loss could just be a flukey blip on the radar, but I have yet to see any evidence Groce and this team can get things turned around.

Berg88 · Nov 22, 2016

Obelix said:
Oh, please stop! Groce is hardly the Mother Teresa and model of ethics and accountability in college basketball. We had become the laughing stock of college basketball with our prominent position on the police blotter and multiple other intra-squad incidents the last few years. The administrative belt has tightened significantly around Groce and staff trying to change the culture and image of the program.

We have hardly been the model of basketball program both on or off the court.

Seriously, how can people be trying argue this is a program we should be proud of off the court. It's been one continuous embarrassment after another off the court.

Obelix said:
Groce and staff need to collect themselves and try to make the tournament this year, which IMO is very doable. One bad loss will not matter, but we need to make it up along the way. Plenty of basketball to be played.

It should be completely doable. This team not making the tournament should be completely unacceptable. It will be one of the 5 most talented teams to be left out if it doesn't (at least). Bruce Weber took multiple teams with less talent to the tournament (well at least 1).

HoustonIllini · Nov 22, 2016

skyIdub said:
My God, what a huge difference there is in University of Illinois fans vs. University of Illinois supporters.

I support this team, these kids, this coaching staff..unconditionally.. as long as they represent this University.

If this staff continues to run a program that holds young men accountable and continues to recruit without succumbing to the dirty BS we all know takes the 5 star recruits out of this state....the same kind many of you thought would take JT away from us last week...I will support them week in and week out. I will grumble at the losses, shake my head at the bad ones such as this, and clap, stomp and cheer at the wins.

The NCAA has created this atmosphere where winning at any cost, money, exposure, and irrational upheaval take precedent over education and morals.

We lost to Winthrop. Get over it. Victory comes in other forms. Winning a basketball game isn't necessarily the biggest victory.

Illinois Loyalty - we have the most passionate fans on the internet . . . and we're the smartest too! Just read the entire thread:thumb: </sarcasm>

Hate the loss, love the team. Will watch all season, I just won't let it define me or my outlook on life. :illinois:

Oh yeah . . . bring back the Chief :chief:

westcoastillini · Nov 22, 2016

Color me worried. It's a terrible feeling getting that deja vu and sinking feeling season after season. We need defense and rebounding. It's what keeps you in games.

I hope this is a shock of cold water to the coach and team...

HoustonIllini · Nov 22, 2016

And how did we get outrebounded 35-32? And by a much smaller team? That to me is just . . . unbelievable . . .

Tevo · Nov 22, 2016

IlliniGman said:
Wow!! Didn't realize 1 loss immediately excludes a team from making the tourney

This kind of response is really even sillier than the posts calling for Groce to be fired mid-season. Of course "1 loss" doesn't remove a team from post-season. But it's not hard to predict that this 1 loss might indicate things about the team which make it likely that we'll suffer more losses. It has some predictive value. And when coupled to numerous other losses very much like it in previous seasons, with many if not ALL of these same players and same coaches, that predictive value goes up.

Of COURSE the season isn't over, but we have been waiting for signs of life and progress for four seasons. "Mav is improving!" "Finke is showing his upside!" "We'll be the oldest and most experienced team in the B1G!" "We have the deepest team we've had in years!" "The biggest improvements come as freshman become sophomores." "When Black comes back, we'll get a big boost!" Etc. etc etc. It just gets tiresome hearing reason after reason why we SHOULD be better, without seeing the team actually BE better. If all of those things are true -- the players are improving, they are more experienced, they are older and wiser, our crop of good young guys are growing up, we have depth, we have a full un-injured roster -- then what is left to explain our play? Those are all individual improvements -- it's up to the coaches to combine them into TEAM improvements.

champaignchris · Nov 22, 2016

The bottom line here is that pretty much everyone agrees that this team needs to make the NCAA tournament for Groce to keep his job. There are a finite number of losses a team can take and still make the tournament. With this team's schedule maybe 12 losses might be the maximum, give or take 1 depending on exactly who those losses are to.

Winthrop is a good mid-major, but will still likely have an RPI in the 100's and need to win their conference to make the tournament. This will be considered a "bad loss" when the tournament committee considers whether Illinois should be in the tournament. Illinois can't lose more than 2 more games in the non-conference schedule and then expect to get into the tournament with a 10-8 (or worse) record in conference play.

The point I'm making is that teams have little margin for error in making the tournament and Illinois just lost a good chunk of that margin last night. It was almost worth two losses in that respect.

The season is not over. Illinois can still make the tournament. Groce can still save his job. But last night was really, really a step in the wrong direction from those goals.

Obelix · Nov 22, 2016

champaignchris said:
The bottom line here is that pretty much everyone agrees that this team needs to make the NCAA tournament for Groce to keep his job.

I actually believe that Groce keeps his job even with an NIT bid. But I would be lying if I said that I did not believe that the basketball program should have been much further ahead 5 years into Groce's tenure.

WesterveltVictoryCigar · Nov 22, 2016

Tevo said:
It's harder to believe that when the ESPN write-up says things like, "Winthrop enjoyed what will likely be their most impressive win of the season." When they aren't expected to beat anyone more impressive than a picked-10th-in-the-B1G Illinois team, they sure sound like a bad team.

Well, the only other high major team they play is Dayton on the road, so it's most probably an accurate statement.

IntenselyOrange · Nov 22, 2016

Obelix said:
I actually believe that Groce keeps his job even with an NIT bid. But I would be lying if I said that I did not believe that the basketball program should have been much further ahead 5 years into Groce's tenure.

That would be bold. I think that you are wrong, but I would not place money on you being wrong.

EJ33 · Nov 22, 2016

champaignchris said:
The bottom line here is that pretty much everyone agrees that this team needs to make the NCAA tournament for Groce to keep his job. There are a finite number of losses a team can take and still make the tournament. With this team's schedule maybe 12 losses might be the maximum, give or take 1 depending on exactly who those losses are to.

He doesn't need to make the tourney to keep his job, but the team needs to look respectable and beat people they should beat.

skyIdub · Nov 22, 2016

Obelix said:
I actually believe that Groce keeps his job even with an NIT bid. But I would be lying if I said that I did not believe that the basketball program should have been much further ahead 5 years into Groce's tenure.

I agree completely. However, a rational, reasonable look at the last few years leaves me with the desire to see what Groce can do with this program without the injuries and off court issues, and I'm not saying he isn't accountable for all of that. He has accepted it and is working his butt off, as far as I can tell, to get it back on track.

Old Number 51 · Nov 22, 2016

Second and Chalmers said:
Sure. Well obviously you don't fire a coach in November, and if you do, you don't hire the replacement until the carousel opens up.

In terms of potential hires, there are always good coaches.

Kevin Keatts at UNCW, Ben Jacobson at Northern Iowa, Archie Miller at Dayton, Jeff Capel at Duke, Will Wade at VCU, Dan Hurley at Rhode Island, you could go on.

Put it this way. We will easily hire someone with a more impressive track record than John Groce had when he took this job. That's no guarantee of success, but 34-30 in the MAC was a fifty foot tall red flag on fire. I love the guy as a person and as a face of the program. But he has been everything 34-30 in the MAC suggested he was.

This.....

Very well put Chalmers

For all you Kool Aid drinkers. The sooner we move on, the sooner our Illini can gain respectability.

This team could be above average but they are not READY to play, before or during games..... That's COACHING!! (or lack there of) :tsk:

IlliniBus · Nov 22, 2016

Tevo said:
This kind of response is really even sillier than the posts calling for Groce to be fired mid-season. Of course "1 loss" doesn't remove a team from post-season. But it's not hard to predict that this 1 loss might indicate things about the team which make it likely that we'll suffer more losses. It has some predictive value. And when coupled to numerous other losses very much like it in previous seasons, with many if not ALL of these same players and same coaches, that predictive value goes up.

Of COURSE the season isn't over, but we have been waiting for signs of life and progress for four seasons. "Mav is improving!" "Finke is showing his upside!" "We'll be the oldest and most experienced team in the B1G!" "We have the deepest team we've had in years!" "The biggest improvements come as freshman become sophomores." "When Black comes back, we'll get a big boost!" Etc. etc etc. It just gets tiresome hearing reason after reason why we SHOULD be better, without seeing the team actually BE better. If all of those things are true -- the players are improving, they are more experienced, they are older and wiser, our crop of good young guys are growing up, we have depth, we have a full un-injured roster -- then what is left to explain our play? Those are all individual improvements -- it's up to the coaches to combine them into TEAM improvements.

Exactly. To make a political analogy, the FiveThirtyEight people used this same concept in their model for projecting the presidential race. How one state goes has a strong correlation to how demographically similar states will also break. For instance, they thought if Pennsylvania were to go for Trump that greatly improved his outlook in OH, MI, WI, IA, and MN. Therefore, they gave Trump some of highest chances out of all the mainstream projection organizations.

Similarly, although losing at home to Winthrop is only one game, it does not bode well for our chances in similar or tougher games the rest of the year. We're sitting here like Hillary Clinton waiting for the other shoes to drop.

Calvin · Nov 22, 2016

Lord Snow said:
I just watched the game. Did not read all these pages.

Good call!

champaignchris · Nov 22, 2016

EJ33 said:
He doesn't need to make the tourney to keep his job, but the team needs to look respectable and beat people they should beat.

If the team looks respectable and beats the teams they should beat, they'll be in the tournament.

This is not a rebuilding project for crying out loud! This is a senior dominated team in year five of the coach's tenure! All the injury and discipline problems of the past don't affect the team right now. They are not the reason this team just lost a home game to Winthrop.

Calvin · Nov 22, 2016

IlliniBus said:
Yes, we blew the 10 point lead with less than 3 minutes to go, but we had a 9+ lead at 5 different points in the game and never put them away. You stretch it out to 15-20 and it's a different ballgame.

14-2
38-29
43-34, 45-36
56-46
70-60

Also, I didn't read every post in this thread, but to those saying some of us are overreacting, it's not just about this game. It's what it means for the rest of the week and the season. This was the week where we were going to find out what we had this year, if Groce could finally put it all together. We just failed the warmup and now are most likely looking at two losses in NYC.

Do that and it would take quite the turnaround in Big Ten play to make the tournament. But, oh yeah, Groce has never finished above .500 in the Big Ten, placing t-7th, t-8th, t-7th, and 12th in his four years here and picked to be I believe 10th this year.

From 1980 until Weber's last season, we made the NCAA tournament 24 out 32 years (3 out of every 4) and never missed it more than 2 years in a row. Groce has already missed it 3 in a row and is working on #4. Yes, I still support the players and staff and maybe this loss could just be a flukey blip on the radar, but I have yet to see any evidence Groce and this team can get things turned around.

You have a lot of company with the bolded. Everyone's concerned, even a large number of those that are happy to defend Groce.

Bottom line is that Groce is here all season, and this is just one game, albeit a stinker.

EJ33 · Nov 22, 2016

champaignchris said:
If the team looks respectable and beats the teams they should beat, they'll be in the tournament.

This is not a rebuilding project for crying out loud! This is a senior dominated team in year five of the coach's tenure! All the injury and discipline problems of the past don't affect the team right now. They are not the reason this team just lost a home game to Winthrop.

We're picked in the lower half of the B1G, so we won't make the tourney if we only win games we're favored in.

Poe's Law · Nov 22, 2016

coltjames03 said:
For everyone saying attendance is because they aren't winning and want Groce out. So he gets fired Tillmon is gone maybe Frazier as well and who knows even Pickett. Will fans show up when it's another 3-4 years before recruiting gets back. Fans show up then or do the same thing again. Groce has his faults but so do a lot of coaches. This game in order of faults to me are simple.

1. Mav,Finke, Thorne
2. Groce
3. Hill

Sorry, but Groce has to be #1 and by a long margin. We were out rebounded by a smaller team (again), we were unable to stop dribble penetration (again), these aren't isolated incidents, they are reoccurring themes.

Groce's best qualities are talent evaluation and recruiting. He needs somebody on staff who can help him in the areas he struggles (teaching defense, teaching rebounding, in game adjustments, substitution patterns). Adapt or die.

Case and point, look at Crean's staff at IU. Tons of head coaching experience, to tell him things like I think Syracuse is going to play zone. I'm starting to suspect that Groce needs list level of babysitting and his current assistants are not up to the task.

MakesNoSense · Nov 22, 2016

Old Number 51 said:
This.....

Very well put Chalmers

For all you Kool Aid drinkers. The sooner we move on, the sooner our Illini can gain respectability.

This team could be above average but they are not READY to play, before or during games..... That's COACHING!! (or lack there of) :tsk:

So Kool Aid drinkers should move on. Well what are drinking that makes you believe this is an above average team?

The sooner wemove on the sooner we gain respectability. Isn't that what was said when Weber was ousted?

FinalFour88 · Nov 22, 2016

Tevo said:
This kind of response is really even sillier than the posts calling for Groce to be fired mid-season. Of course "1 loss" doesn't remove a team from post-season. But it's not hard to predict that this 1 loss might indicate things about the team which make it likely that we'll suffer more losses. It has some predictive value. And when coupled to numerous other losses very much like it in previous seasons, with many if not ALL of these same players and same coaches, that predictive value goes up.

Of COURSE the season isn't over, but we have been waiting for signs of life and progress for four seasons. "Mav is improving!" "Finke is showing his upside!" "We'll be the oldest and most experienced team in the B1G!" "We have the deepest team we've had in years!" "The biggest improvements come as freshman become sophomores." "When Black comes back, we'll get a big boost!" Etc. etc etc. It just gets tiresome hearing reason after reason why we SHOULD be better, without seeing the team actually BE better. If all of those things are true -- the players are improving, they are more experienced, they are older and wiser, our crop of good young guys are growing up, we have depth, we have a full un-injured roster -- then what is left to explain our play? Those are all individual improvements -- it's up to the coaches to combine them into TEAM improvements.

This is a great post. Sums it all up for me.

EJ33 · Nov 22, 2016

tjjohnso said:
Groce's best qualities are talent evaluation and recruiting. He needs somebody on staff who can help him in the areas he struggles (teaching defense, teaching rebounding, in game adjustments, substitution patterns). Adapt or die.

Not sure this is a solution (we tried that with Zook), but it gets at the heart of the matter - Groce's coaching weakness is teaching the game. He complicates things rather than simplifying them, and his constant in-game "coaching" doesn't help. Why are his schemes so complicated and take so long to learn???

Obelix · Nov 22, 2016

coltjames03 said:
I get it a lot of hate for Groces coaching which he deserves but at some point need to point fingers at the players. Coaches lose players win is the mentality of people these days. No players win and players lose. Groce rope is shorter and he deserves that but to place the blame on him more than the 3 of Mav, Finke and Thorne is beyond crazy. Even when in position they couldn't wrap up the rebound or box out

I disagree, never a good practice. Players are not without fault, but they are student-athletes, and they are not getting paid millions of dollars. Even if they are less talented, the reason they are at UI is because coaches recruited them.

If a player does not perform, it is the coach's responsibility to substitute him and put someone else in there. If multiple players consistently do not perform, then there is a larger issue of being able to recruit the right players or get players mentally and physically ready for games or being able to instill discipline on players to follow directions/game plan. All those are with the coaches as well.

Old Number 51 · Nov 22, 2016

EJ33 said:
What's the explanation as to why this team can't rebound?

I was expecting rebounding to be a real strength given the size of this team and all the hype about improved strength and vertical leap.

I'm also confused by Groce's comments after the game:

"We needed this type of game...against a team with experience...that's how you learn..."

Why does a veteran team that should be incredibly hungry need a lesson from Winthrop?

:thumb:

Second and Chalmers · Nov 22, 2016

Tevo said:
This kind of response is really even sillier than the posts calling for Groce to be fired mid-season. Of course "1 loss" doesn't remove a team from post-season. But it's not hard to predict that this 1 loss might indicate things about the team which make it likely that we'll suffer more losses. It has some predictive value. And when coupled to numerous other losses very much like it in previous seasons, with many if not ALL of these same players and same coaches, that predictive value goes up.

Of COURSE the season isn't over, but we have been waiting for signs of life and progress for four seasons. "Mav is improving!" "Finke is showing his upside!" "We'll be the oldest and most experienced team in the B1G!" "We have the deepest team we've had in years!" "The biggest improvements come as freshman become sophomores." "When Black comes back, we'll get a big boost!" Etc. etc etc. It just gets tiresome hearing reason after reason why we SHOULD be better, without seeing the team actually BE better. If all of those things are true -- the players are improving, they are more experienced, they are older and wiser, our crop of good young guys are growing up, we have depth, we have a full un-injured roster -- then what is left to explain our play? Those are all individual improvements -- it's up to the coaches to combine them into TEAM improvements.

Yeah this is a good post. There aren't really questions about what we have. This is the same group of players running the same system. We've seen all these guys and we know they have talent.

The thing we're trying to determine is whether the mentality is going to change, whether the light is going to come on in critical situations. And we get a nice training wheels situation last night, needing to close out a less talented but game and pesky team at home, and we're plunged into darkness exactly the way it has happened again and again and again under this regime.

The question that was asked of the team down the stretch in that game was exactly the question of this season. The evidence we were given is that nothing has changed. Change is running out of time.

Winthrop 84, Illinois 80 OT POSTGAME

Winged Warrior