John Groce at Illinois

[wIn]

You are missing the point. You believe change is warranted because JG simply can't coach a MASH Unit two years in a row. JG has done a pretty darn good job keeping this team afloat. It's difficult to find consistency and trust with players when all they have been doing is going in and out of the lineup. Furthermore, if you can't see that next years team will be pretty darn good because of what's coming back and the development of players, then you have no eye for talent and optimism. If everyone is healthy, next years team makes the tournament. I posted for the first time on here yesterday because I'm sick and tired of all the crap people post with no optimism in sight. All people do on here is whine and complain. As Whitman said last night at halftime, support and find more Illini fans. Many on here are not those people. #WEWILLWIN #INGROCEWETRUST

How has he kept the team afloat? We're one of the worst teams in the conference.

People like to copy and paste the "2012 team quit on Weber" meme over and over again, but what exactly is the difference between quitting and being bad? Why is losing at Nebraska in 2012 quitting but getting thoroughly beaten by Nebraska at home and getting curbstomped by Indiana twice is not? If you think next year's team will be pretty darn good, then by deduction you think we have good enough players now because we're not really adding any difference making players to next year's team. Maybe there will be a huge jump, but maybe it's the same issue all over again. When the coach loses credibility there's no coming back.

 

[geneseo]

...JG has done a pretty darn good job keeping this team afloat. ...

We have five wins in the conference, four of them against the two worst teams to ever play in the conference. And one of those wins the opponent started a walk-on at point guard who put up 19 on us. And it took overtime to win two more of those games.

There may be some valid excuses why we have sunk to this level, not sure anyone could have kept us afloat...but we really do stink this year.

 

[orangeandbluekrush]

There are a few IF's but if you get Abrams back, he automatically is an upgrade and point, not to mention TJL coming in. IF Black returns he gives the team instant rebounding and toughness. IF Thorne is back you have another low post option that can score and can rebound. All freshmen will have a full offseason to get stronger and better. JCL and DJ have improved a ton since the beginning of the year. If you can't see that, you are naive. Veterans will get better and hopefully not have to carry the load. Most of you are bleacher coaches and can't see development. As a former coach, the players are developing and have under Groce. Take 3 starters away from most any program and they won't be good either. Like I have stated previously, this is not an elite program. Give JG another year with a healthy roster to prove what he can do. IF Whitman gets rid of him, the program will be setback again for another 3-4 years. Quit coaching from the stands and evaluate. Oh and by the way, I'm assuming most of you are ones that sit all game and don't stand so it's time to get involved in the game and create a great atmosphere. #INGROCEWETRUST

 

[Psycho 86]

There are a few IF's but if you get Abrams back, he automatically is an upgrade and point, not to mention TJL coming in. IF Black returns he gives the team instant rebounding and toughness. IF Thorne is back you have another low post option that can score and can rebound. All freshmen will have a full offseason to get stronger and better. JCL and DJ have improved a ton since the beginning of the year. If you can't see that, you are naive. Veterans will get better and hopefully not have to carry the load. Most of you are bleacher coaches and can't see development. As a former coach, the players are developing and have under Groce. Take 3 starters away from most any program and they won't be good either. Like I have stated previously, this is not an elite program. Give JG another year with a healthy roster to prove what he can do. IF Whitman gets rid of him, the program will be setback again for another 3-4 years. Quit coaching from the stands and evaluate. Oh and by the way, I'm assuming most of you are ones that sit all game and don't stand so it's time to get involved in the game and create a great atmosphere. #INGROCEWETRUST

Preach it brother preach it !! :thumb::thumb::thumb::thumb:

 

[Bomb Squad 217]

I like this guy. He's like another me on here.

 

[urbanite]

We have five wins in the conference, four of them against the two worst teams to ever play in the conference.

For the majority of the season, we've had only nine scholarship players available. Of those nine, only four had previously played together during a season and three are true freshmen.

 

[Renegade19]

There are a few IF's but if you get Abrams back, he automatically is an upgrade and point, not to mention TJL coming in. IF Black returns he gives the team instant rebounding and toughness. IF Thorne is back you have another low post option that can score and can rebound. All freshmen will have a full offseason to get stronger and better. JCL and DJ have improved a ton since the beginning of the year. If you can't see that, you are naive. Veterans will get better and hopefully not have to carry the load. Most of you are bleacher coaches and can't see development. As a former coach, the players are developing and have under Groce. Take 3 starters away from most any program and they won't be good either. Like I have stated previously, this is not an elite program. Give JG another year with a healthy roster to prove what he can do. IF Whitman gets rid of him, the program will be setback again for another 3-4 years. Quit coaching from the stands and evaluate. Oh and by the way, I'm assuming most of you are ones that sit all game and don't stand so it's time to get involved in the game and create a great atmosphere. #INGROCEWETRUST

This! Thanks for the post.

 

[Deleted member 10676]

There are a few IF's but if you get Abrams back, he automatically is an upgrade and point, not to mention TJL coming in. IF Black returns he gives the team instant rebounding and toughness. IF Thorne is back you have another low post option that can score and can rebound. All freshmen will have a full offseason to get stronger and better. JCL and DJ have improved a ton since the beginning of the year. If you can't see that, you are naive. Veterans will get better and hopefully not have to carry the load. Most of you are bleacher coaches and can't see development. As a former coach, the players are developing and have under Groce. Take 3 starters away from most any program and they won't be good either. Like I have stated previously, this is not an elite program. Give JG another year with a healthy roster to prove what he can do. IF Whitman gets rid of him, the program will be setback again for another 3-4 years. Quit coaching from the stands and evaluate. Oh and by the way, I'm assuming most of you are ones that sit all game and don't stand so it's time to get involved in the game and create a great atmosphere. #INGROCEWETRUST

:thumb::thumb::thumb::thumb::thumb::thumb:

 

[Second and Chalmers]

I don't think that there's any reasonable doubt that next year's team will be better than this one. It's a question of how much better. And how the chances for improvement weigh against other factors.

 

[orangeandbluekrush]

The current team is missing 26 PPG from the 3 starters who are out for the year. Abrams avg. 10 PPG his JR year, Thorne 12 PPG and Black 4 PPG. Find me one coach who can say truthfully they would be alright without 26 PPG sitting on the bench. Those points along with defense and rebounding would probably change at least 8-10 outcomes of games. Almost every offense possession we play 4 on 5 because Lewis and Tate don't have to be guarded much at all which allows defenses to double Hill and Nunn. Abrams will have to be guarded which allows the offense to open up for everyone. There has to be realistic expectations when a team loses this much. The reason why many businesses fail is because goals and expectations are too high and can't be met. There is no coach that would say they could compete for a B1G Championship with 26 PPG on the bench. Be realistic and have common sense.

 

[OrangeSoda]

Hate to beat the dead horse but the biggest difference between Groce and Brucie is as follows...

Bruce inherited a championship caliber team, the best in Illini history. He then made a u-turn on our road to becoming a blue blood. So to compare Webers last 4 seasons and Groces first 4 makes absolutely no sense.

Also, name me one team that isn't a blue blood that would be able to compete without 4 potential starters (people forget Paul). That's what I thought. Groce gets one more year.

 

[Second and Chalmers]

I'm in a weird place right now. I simultaneously desperately hope Groce is back for another year and find every argument I read for his retention to be nails-on-chalkboard awful.

There is no question that he deserves to be fired, and yet no question that the best move for Illinois' future is to keep him. Strange times.

 

[illynifan34]

I'm in a weird place right now. I simultaneously desperately hope Groce is back for another year and find every argument I read for his retention to be nails-on-chalkboard awful.

There is no question that he deserves to be fired, and yet no question that the best move for Illinois' future is to keep him. Strange times.

Good summary. Lock the thread

 

[GameOfThrows]

There are a few IF's but if you get Abrams back, he automatically is an upgrade and point, not to mention TJL coming in. IF Black returns he gives the team instant rebounding and toughness. IF Thorne is back you have another low post option that can score and can rebound. All freshmen will have a full offseason to get stronger and better. JCL and DJ have improved a ton since the beginning of the year. If you can't see that, you are naive. Veterans will get better and hopefully not have to carry the load. Most of you are bleacher coaches and can't see development. As a former coach, the players are developing and have under Groce. Take 3 starters away from most any program and they won't be good either. Like I have stated previously, this is not an elite program. Give JG another year with a healthy roster to prove what he can do. IF Whitman gets rid of him, the program will be setback again for another 3-4 years. Quit coaching from the stands and evaluate. Oh and by the way, I'm assuming most of you are ones that sit all game and don't stand so it's time to get involved in the game and create a great atmosphere. #INGROCEWETRUST

This is the kind of optimism and positive energy that our program needs from of our fans.

With Damonte committing and Pickett in as well, it looks like Coach Groce is on his way to bringing in the best class of recruits since Self was here. That is what this program needs: Game-Changers across the board.

JCL, Hill, Nunn are players and it sure looks like Finke and DJW are too. Black and Jordan may have game, they have the potential, and Morgan has proven to be a serviceable 5 (looking forward to him progressing even more as most bigs do) If Tate can gain confidence in his shot, which is possible, along with the return of Abrams and TJL coming in, we're solid at the 1. Next season will be a good year for Illini basketball. We'll need a 5th year transfer big (Thorne or someone else - strong rebounder would be cool with me) I didn't even mention Kipper, but with him not being eligible until second semester, he may struggle to get minutes next season.

Things are looking up. Need to ignore this season and focus on next season and the Class of '17.

Go Illini!

(Full disclosure, I have been one of the fans who would be fine if Groce is let go after this season, or fine if he stays. While his coaching has not been great, it is hard to tell since he hasn't had his kind of players or healthy players. With Damonte on board, I am in the Keep Groce camp now.)

Grace can get this thing turned around in a hurry if the Class of '17 comes in like everyone is hoping.

 

[Renegade19]

I'm in a weird place right now. I simultaneously desperately hope Groce is back for another year and find every argument I read for his retention to be nails-on-chalkboard awful.

There is no question that he deserves to be fired, and yet no question that the best move for Illinois' future is to keep him. Strange times.

IF you take a look at everything that has transpired I'm not so sure he does deserve to be fired. Not saying the result on the floor are acceptable because they're not. I'd say any AD needs to evaluate what's happened and IF HJG has learned and adapted accordingly. That's a big part of it. WHAT has he implemented to counter the negative things that have happened. How has he grown as a leader as well as a coach.

 

[CoalCity]

I'm in a weird place right now. I simultaneously desperately hope Groce is back for another year and find every argument I read for his retention to be nails-on-chalkboard awful.

There is no question that he deserves to be fired, and yet no question that the best move for Illinois' future is to keep him. Strange times.

I've been trying to put my identical feelings into words all day.

Everything you throw at this dilemma is a contradiction, be it facts, statistics, common sense, eye test, gut feeling...for each positive you can find a matching negative and vice versa.

Bottom line is that we ALL want the program to get better and anyone who insinuates otherwise is WAY out of line. We just have different ideas on how to go about it. At some point three or four years down the road one side will be proven correct.

 

[illinitiger]

I've been trying to put my identical feelings into words all day.

Everything you throw at this dilemma is a contradiction, be it facts, statistics, common sense, eye test, gut feeling...for each positive you can find a matching negative and vice versa.

Bottom line is that we ALL want the program to get better and anyone who insinuates otherwise is WAY out of line. We just have different ideas on how to go about it. At some point three or four years down the road one side will be proven correct.

On "one side proven correct...."

If JW made a near term switch and we don't have improvement in 4 years, we would still wonder (neither side proven)..
But not expecting switch anytime soon

 

[CrazedUIFan]

I don't think that there's any reasonable doubt that next year's team will be better than this one. It's a question of how much better. And how the chances for improvement weigh against other factors.

Agree. I also think too many of us are placing big expectations on a guy who has had two major injuries and hasn't played competitively in two years. Abrams will no doubt bring leadership, but I'm skeptical if he will be able to bring anything more than what we have now at PG. I'm hoping for his sake he is able to be as aggressive as he was and bring the toughness he had before the injuries. And we will still see the same challenges in the middle. Defensively, I haven't seen much improvement. We aren't good at closing out, takiing good angles and our off the ball defense is poor. Egwu made up for a lot of guard mistakes last year. It's not always about athletisism defensively. mcBride was a very good defensive player because he used his body and understood taking the right angles.

 

[FeelYourPaign]

Odd those that are acting as Abrams comes back the same or better prior to 2 bad injuries. Might want to reel it back in. Black has a TON of work to do to be better on the court (off courts issue aside). Thorne proved he can play vs lower tier teams at times, but face a Providence or whomever and he looked very hesitant. If all 3 are back I would say it helps with DEPTH, but would not expect what some seem to believe.

These are legitimate points and I certainly cannot disprove them. But with Abrams and Thorne, I think there is a pretty good chance that the senior fire burns brightly in them all year. That feeling that Seniors often get late in the year, where they say to themselves, "omg, its my last time to do this and this and that" might be strengthened by experiencing the emptiness of 2016. Don't know this for certain either, but think it could happen, offsetting some of the injury rust. We'll see with Abrams. Hopefully Thorne too

 

[combes]

Odd those that are acting as Abrams comes back the same or better prior to 2 bad injuries. Might want to reel it back in. Black has a TON of work to do to be better on the court (off courts issue aside). Thorne proved he can play vs lower tier teams at times, but face a Providence or whomever and he looked very hesitant. If all 3 are back I would say it helps with DEPTH, but would not expect what some seem to believe.

Black was said to be the best player on the team last summer. He had a typical freshman year and could have been expected to make the normal progression between freshman and sophomore years. What you saw from him early this year while injured should be discounted.

Thorne had good games against some of the better competition, too. In fact, in the game he was hurt in, he already had 10 points and 7 rebounds in the first half against Iowa State. No expected him to be a big scorer, but a 10 and 7 year for averages would have been huge. Plus he forces the other team to defend him in the paint opening up the outside for shooters. Inside out play is a good thing.

Abrams is young. He did not have the same injury twice. I expect him to come back and be a solid leader, play defense and give toughness. He can tutor Lucas. We will be much better off at the point next year, imo.

What hurt even more than losing those players was that the players who replaced them in the lineup were the 6, 7, 8 men of the rotation. When that happened, our rotation then had to include players who weren't ready, the 9, 10, 11 guys. Guys like Austin and Lewis and Tate had to play a lot more.

Next year, adding rebounders like Thorne and Black would be huge, imo. We don't need them to be big scorers. We have shooters.

 

[Cubby Blue]

Odd those that are acting as Abrams comes back the same or better prior to 2 bad injuries. Might want to reel it back in. Black has a TON of work to do to be better on the court (off courts issue aside). Thorne proved he can play vs lower tier teams at times, but face a Providence or whomever and he looked very hesitant. If all 3 are back I would say it helps with DEPTH, but would not expect what some seem to believe.

What was Thorne doing against that lower tier Iowa State team before he got hurt?

I am a big TA fan and I don't expect big things. If healthy though I do expect him to lead, to teach TJL some things, and to still give his 100% on loose balls. I loved the way he used to rip out a ball from the pile. We haven't done well on that at all this year.

I myself have for the moment moved on from Leron. But I think Kipper can give us some rebounds.

My recent biggest expectation is for DJ though. Love how he handled the ball last night after the steal and the point guardesche drive down the court and no look pass to Malcolm on the wing. Loved it. :thumb:

 

[TooHot4Tots]

Ah, yeah Crosby was the best too. Cant believe everything is all. I am just a bit more grounded. Abrams will be what, 24-25 yrs old and coming off of 2 nasty injuries. Like I said, if all 3 are back then hey, great for Depth. As for Thorne, one game vs Iowa State doesn't do much but wash the game vs Providence.

Hoping for the best, but definitely not expecting it. Do like the mention about Abrams helping with TJL. Hoping that toughness rubs off.

DJ and JCL have been fun to watch grow. Hoping AJ can join the fold there as well.

 

[Cubby Blue]

I'm in a weird place right now. I simultaneously desperately hope Groce is back for another year and find every argument I read for his retention to be nails-on-chalkboard awful.

There is no question that he deserves to be fired, and yet no question that the best move for Illinois' future is to keep him. Strange times.

You know, if you look back at Henson's first six years and knowing what he went through to get this program kick started, one could probably understand the difficulty of the job a little more. This job isn't easy. The recruiting piece and the flatland small college town where snow comes more from the side than from above do us no favors. Henson made the hall of fame, has his name on the court and even then it took him time. We have all argued the start each was given many times and one can be on either side of the argument. It isn't too much to ask though that both sides recognize the difficulty of the task.

 

[ChiTownJH]

You are missing the point. You believe change is warranted because JG simply can't coach a MASH Unit two years in a row. JG has done a pretty darn good job keeping this team afloat. It's difficult to find consistency and trust with players when all they have been doing is going in and out of the lineup. Furthermore, if you can't see that next years team will be pretty darn good because of what's coming back and the development of players, then you have no eye for talent and optimism. If everyone is healthy, next years team makes the tournament. I posted for the first time on here yesterday because I'm sick and tired of all the crap people post with no optimism in sight. All people do on here is whine and complain. As Whitman said last night at halftime, support and find more Illini fans. Many on here are not those people. #WEWILLWIN #INGROCEWETRUST

Awesome post, bro. I really liked reading that bold part!

 

[Deleted member 10676]

You know, if you look back at Henson's first six years and knowing what he went through to get this program kick started, one could probably understand the difficulty of the job a little more. This job isn't easy. The recruiting piece and the flatland small college town where snow comes more from the side than from above do us no favors. Henson made the hall of fame, has his name on the court and even then it took him time. We have all argued the start each was given many times and one can be on either side of the argument. It isn't too much to ask though that both sides recognize the difficulty of the task.

Right, Lou is beloved now, but I can vividly remember fans who wanted his head from day one until the final four season. Just like Groce now, Lou was blamed for every loss, knucklehead shot or pass, dumb off-court behavior, uninspired game etc etc. for years. I know because I worked and knew some of the biggest Lou haters around. I may be generally too easy on our coaches, I am 100% behind Groce and cannot imagine how anyone could think he deserves to be fired after going through a season like this, but it's always been this way I think. Just glad there was no social media back in the 70s and 80s.
Also, one reason I've tried to stay off this thread for the most part.