icengineer
- Southern Illinois
His Royal Frankness.
John Groce at Illinois
- Status
I felt JG would be back too due to the instability in the athletic department and all the large buyouts.
Dare to dream but if he can land Goodwin and Tilmon he might be back to being JFG lol.
ILL in IA
- Iowa City
He is always JFG. JFG the good way when he is landing recruits. Or JFG the way Red Sox fans refer to Aaron Boone or Bucky Dent. AFB & BFD.
Illinithad
- Northeast Missouri
Kramer
- Des Moines, Iowa
I find myself with that interior argument as well, I have always wanted him to succeed but wondered if he was the right guy. I know we can talk about injuries a lot and it is a valid point but it has just seemed that they have been in position (with this roster) to perform better down the stretch and win a couple more and didn't, is the JG's fault, idk.
With that being said the team for the most part has played pretty hard when they easily could have mailed it in. I think of the Wisconsin game, we have stunk against them in recent years, I think they have won 10 in a row. But yet we had a chance to win... I feel so bi-polar on this issue.
I guess whatever ADJW decides with his knowledge of what is taking place there is good enough for me.
URH Snyder 490
Orange Crush '89
- Northern Illinois
:thumb:
RIP, Bill Liesse.
I've been trying to not comment on anything Groce related, just assuming he'd get another year, and I know this result was not shocking by any means. But the non-competitiveness of this team and the complete lack of anything resembling an offensive or defensive system has me believing now is the time for a change. There is literally nothing you can hang your hat on or look to and think, "ok we're on the right track, if we have some better health next year, this is a top half of the big ten program."
I know people will point to the Damonte Williams verbal, but I'm willing to take our chances that the next coach can keep a legacy that supposedly was going to be an Illini all along. Also, I've seen the Tilmon story way too many times since I started following Illinois recruiting in 2004. The 5 star that loves Illinois and is just a matter of time until he verbals. I'll let a new, exciting hire that hopefully can keep Williams and Pickett, try his hand at the Tilmon recruitment.
I know people will point to the Damonte Williams verbal, but I'm willing to take our chances that the next coach can keep a legacy that supposedly was going to be an Illini all along. Also, I've seen the Tilmon story way too many times since I started following Illinois recruiting in 2004. The 5 star that loves Illinois and is just a matter of time until he verbals. I'll let a new, exciting hire that hopefully can keep Williams and Pickett, try his hand at the Tilmon recruitment.
Been a very difficult year for the fans.
However, were we to get back the bigs we lost, we should have been in far better shape. That much I am willing to give to Groce.
Where I think he has done very poorly is in recruiting - his supposed strength. He should have had at least one if not two very good (not great) PGs by now. And same with a center.
When MT first hired him, I recall, he had the backing of a few players at tOSU and a parent who is a rather well known broadcaster and an ex tOSU star.
Now that he has two PGs in the fold and assuming he gets a good center, he deserves a year or two.
However, were we to get back the bigs we lost, we should have been in far better shape. That much I am willing to give to Groce.
Where I think he has done very poorly is in recruiting - his supposed strength. He should have had at least one if not two very good (not great) PGs by now. And same with a center.
When MT first hired him, I recall, he had the backing of a few players at tOSU and a parent who is a rather well known broadcaster and an ex tOSU star.
Now that he has two PGs in the fold and assuming he gets a good center, he deserves a year or two.
IlliniRunIn07
- Tampa, FL
At this point, I don't even have much of an opinion on the matter. Whatever happens, happens. But I agree with the sentiment of your post. I fully expected to lose last night, and I figured it was likely that we would lose big. I know our depth is virtually zero, and I'm well aware of our injury situation. But this is pretty much the healthiest this group has been all year, and we looked pathetic last night. We have a bonafide star in Hill. I believe Nunn, while streaky, would be a starter for most, if not all, B1G teams. JCL has shown flashes of absolute brilliance. For Mav to have the coming out party he had last night, and us to still lose by almost 30 - it's a complete joke. Would QS turn a blowout loss into a win? Truthfully, I don't know, but probably not.
The frustrating part about the injuries is that it makes it almost impossible to evaluate Groce's coaching this year. I assume he will be back next year. For some reason, I kind of want him to get another year. Next year will tell us all we need to know. While this year's excuses are valid, he really can't have any excuses next year.
I used to think this but now I just don't know. It's not the NBA where the coach is reliant on the GM to give him good players. The roster is completely on the coach. If you don't hit on your 5 star targets, you have to have some sort of a backup plan. He's had 4 years to get a point guard and a big. He has Tate and Morgan to show for it.
The 2 bigs he's lost are a 5th year transfer and a former top 50 recruit that has been inconsistent at best and just pulled a knife on a bouncer and will probably be at a different school next year. Can't build a team on 5th year transfers and you have to show some discipline off the court.
I think it's so hard because Groce seems like such a good guy, says all the right things, and has such a reputation as a recruiter. But really, it's time to let the results on and off the court speak for themselves and move on.
What is concerning to me at least, is that the group we do have this year has not progressed as a team. Sure, MM has taken a step forward individually, but the team as a whole is not playing any more competitively now, than they were at the beginning on January. That to me, is concerning. By no means did I expect us to win last night, but there is no reason we couldn't have played them to a 15-17 point loss as oppose to a 30+ blowout (the spread was 15.5). I don't think you can allow things that are uncertainties to factor in to your evaluation of the coach groce at the end of the year. For Example, there is a lot of talk about us being much better next year assuming we have Black and Thorne, its entirely possible that neither is even on the roster next year. For Example, there is talk about Tracy Abrams being a major boost to the team next year, while I love Tracy to death, that is no sure thing either. He hasn't played basketball in over 2 years and is coming off very serious injuries. I agree wholeheartedly with those who share the sentiment that verbal commitments for a year or two from now cannot hold this program hostage. I am not sure what the right thing to do is, but the Damonte Williams doesn't make me forget the lack of competitiveness, really against every B10 team this year (Rutgers & Minny excluded) and the lack of improvement as a team throughout the year.
No, he isn't qualified at this moment of his career.
JG Out of His Depth
I have already stated in other posts the statistics and anecdotal evidence of why JG should not be here after this year. Watch the first five minutes of last night's game. That is the season, that is the JG era. No plan on offense resulting in poor shots and no ability or desire to create pressure or pace. An out of his depth AD hired an out of his depth coach. Make the right hire and Williams stays. Look for a young up and comer, like Hurley or Drew. Drew is a better fit b/c he has won consistently. Someone who played at a high level who can win the press conference (which JG does as well) but has the coaching chops to boot.
I have already stated in other posts the statistics and anecdotal evidence of why JG should not be here after this year. Watch the first five minutes of last night's game. That is the season, that is the JG era. No plan on offense resulting in poor shots and no ability or desire to create pressure or pace. An out of his depth AD hired an out of his depth coach. Make the right hire and Williams stays. Look for a young up and comer, like Hurley or Drew. Drew is a better fit b/c he has won consistently. Someone who played at a high level who can win the press conference (which JG does as well) but has the coaching chops to boot.
There are many rumors on this board that could not be further from the truth, yet just because they are often ignorantly repeated, does not make them correct. Such as the popular one that Weber really liked VanVleet but Jerrance insisted on Orris, whereas VanVleet's own HS coach pretty much went on record in the media describing the exact opposite story (Jerrance liked VavVleet and tried to recruit him, convinced Weber to visit, but Weber did not do much --- other than showing up on a cancelled practice). Even just observing the facts, i.e., Weber offered Orris at KSU even without Jerrance, would have been enough to dispel the rumor.
Or the one you mentioned that Weber thought Jerrance was creating a huge commitment and discipline problem that led to Weber's UI demise, yet the fact is that Weber only offered Jerrance an assistant's position at KSU (did not offer any of his other assistants). Which if you believe the rumor, that would make Weber a masochist.
This ^^^
It's the lack of organization on the floor offensively and defensively that is just baffling.
Ryllini
- Lombard
I only bring this guy guy up, because his success has been pretty remarkable at every stop, but what was wrong with hiring Cuonzo Martin back in 2011? I believe he was on the carousel back when we were making our hire and with his Midwest roots, especially the St. Louis area, hind sight to me says that may have been too good to be true. I like JFG and truly hopes he does well here, but something is going to have to give soon. Depleted roster or not, we weren't blowing our cupcakes out by 25+ like we have been in 4 BIG matches.
For one thing the job wasn't open in 2011. Martin had just finished his first season at Tennessee when we fired Weber. But I do remember his name coming up. The knock on him was that we wanted away from the Gene Keady coaching tree and the ugly basketball that goes along with that.
People at the time associated a slow, plodding, physical style of basketball with an inability to recruit elite players. Anyone familiar with the careers of Ben Howland, Bob Huggins, or now Cuonzo Martin knows that's not true, but that was the conventional wisdom on this board at the time.
Ryllini
- Lombard
You are right, we were open in 2012, I was doing my math years like I'm still in 2015
I remember that kind of being the sentiment as well.
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icengineer
- Southern Illinois
Jerrance Howard has never even been the actual #1 assistant on any D1 team. Meaning if the HC got fired he'd be the one to step in. I don't know that he's ever even been the #2 assistant anywhere, let alone 1st. Here at UI he was def 3rd, at SMU Jankovic for sure was above, maybe he was 2nd there? At Kansas he's the 3rd assistant. So aside from possibly one year of being the second assistant at SMU he's done relatively little to warrant any consideration as a HC anywhere. His number one priority at every stop as a coach has been as a recruiter. Heck I think even a Bradley type situation would even be a bit of a stretch at this point, though I could see that happening a few years down the road. Given these facts, I wonder why any Illini fan would even give a moments thought to JH being the HC here at UI???? :noidea:
How about judging him based on last year then? personnel was slightly better, kind of like next year, results were slightly better, but still sucked and we saw total lack of anything down the stretch. We had a better record, our defense was better on paper, and our offense was as inept as this one. Quick threes, no inside presence, no team offense, never getting to the line, subpar rebounding.
I dont need to see another year like 2014-15 to convince me he's not going to make it work here. I believe Damonte wants to play for Illinois.
They would have beaten the current team 4 of 5 times, even with Abrams Black and Thorne available.
Your definition of 1st, 2nd, 3rd and all that is totally arbitrary as far as getting a HC job. At UI Jerrance was the top paid assistant, that is much more important as far as determining value, the only one to get assistant offers under many of the top coaches (Cal, Donovan, Brown, Self), the only one who got offered an assistant's job from Weber's staff, and the only one who had a chance to ever become a Div. I head coach.
At KU, Danny Manning was the 3rd assistant by your definition as well. Yet, he became the HC at Wake Forest. 1st, 2nd, 3rd mean very little. Roberts has been the longest and top (by your definition) assistant at KU, but chances that Roberts gets a HC job after two failed stints are slim to none. Yet, he is a very good and respected top assistant. Shaka Smart was a long time assistant under Purnell, yet he took the 3rd assistant's job with Donovan for less than a year before ending up with the VCU HC job. Seniority of assistants or perceived hierarchy means very little. Marketability is what is important.
MadtownIllin
- Madison, WI
While every year of JFG's tenure has made me less and less of a believer of his coaching skills, I believe he will get another year if only because of the poor image that could result in relieving him after the year of injuries. (I.e. Prospective coaches may not see this as giving him a fair chance so less likely to get the best candidates) However, if I was the new AD I would insist that he bring on an assistant coach who was an excellent in game coach and defensive guru. Not sure who should be replaced but the need for someone to improve the in game situation adjustments along with a substantial increase in defensive skills would probably supersede anything that the assistants are currently bringing to the table...
Deleted member 175495
D
Guest
If you believe that the biggest weakness Groce has is recruiting then I can see you thinking he deserves more time. I'm in the camp that believes he's just not a very good basketball coach. I think we will be in the situation we are now again soon if he stays here. I'm ready to move on.
- Status