Illinois Hoops Recruiting Thread (October 2016)

[FatGreg]

I'm not all the concerned about his shot as long as it's a high, quick release and it goes in. Steph Curry shoots on the way up on his jump shots and Shawn Marion really had a different stroke. The step back two reminds me quite a bit of Malcolm Hill.

Shooting on the way up is proper mechanics. Shooting at the apex of the jump is bad mechanics, regardless of ancient dogma. When you get to the top of your jump, all the energy transfer comes from your arm and hand. It makes it much harder to get enough power to shoot deep threes: you end up using small muscles that are more difficult to coordinate consistently.

The old methodology around shooting technique is virtually all wrong. I'll describe the worst way to shoot: square your shoulders to the basket, keep your elbow in tight to the body, bring the ball straight up to the shooting pocket (no dip), jump high (get good lift) and don't kick your legs, shoot at the top of your jump, extend your shooting arm and get a high release, follow through by making a gooseneck with your shooting hand. The WORST.

Proper/new way to shoot: angle your body naturally to the basket (around a 45-degree angle is usually good), bring the ball to the shooting pocket in one fluid motion (it helps to dip the ball slightly at waist/abdomen level as you flex at the knees - this creates more power), transfer kinetic energy from your jump into your upper body by shooting early in the jump, keep your release relatively low (a high, straight armed release is energy inefficient and requires you to engage dozens of small hand and wrist muscles - you want 90% of the power to come from your legs). Most important thing is consistency, and consistency is easiest to achieve when you eliminate variables. Steph Curry's shot looks "weird" because he's breaking a lot of dumb old rules in favor of a more efficient, streamlined technique.

 

[CAHALL15]

Shooting on the way up is proper mechanics. Shooting at the apex of the jump is bad mechanics, regardless of ancient dogma. When you get to the top of your jump, all the energy transfer comes from your arm and hand. It makes it much harder to get enough power to shoot deep threes: you end up using small muscles that are more difficult to coordinate consistently.

The old methodology around shooting technique is virtually all wrong. I'll describe the worst way to shoot: square your shoulders to the basket, keep your elbow in tight to the body, bring the ball straight up to the shooting pocket (no dip), jump high (get good lift) and don't kick your legs, shoot at the top of your jump, extend your shooting arm and get a high release, follow through by making a gooseneck with your shooting hand. The WORST.

Proper/new way to shoot: angle your body naturally to the basket (around a 45-degree angle is usually good), bring the ball to the shooting pocket in one fluid motion (it helps to dip the ball slightly at waist/abdomen level as you flex at the knees - this creates more power), transfer kinetic energy from your jump into your upper body by shooting early in the jump, keep your release relatively low (a high, straight armed release is energy inefficient and requires you to engage dozens of small hand and wrist muscles - you want 90% of the power to come from your legs). Most important thing is consistency, and consistency is easiest to achieve when you eliminate variables. Steph Curry's shot looks "weird" because he's breaking a lot of dumb old rules in favor of a more efficient, streamlined technique.

The way Curry shoots is definitely what allows him to get his shot off quicker than anybody, but Klay Thompson, Ray Allen, and Reggie Miller (all great shooters themselves) all release at the highest or near the highest point of their jump. I'm really not here to debate what the accepted way to shoot is, but more pointing to the absolutes that seem to hold true no matter what your release/form looks like that are the hallmarks of the great shooters. Miller was one of the best shooters around yet his follow through looked awkward at the end and his knees banged together as he was jumping up.

The reason I'm not worried about Pickett, as others said, is that the kid is a gym rat and with his long arms, he is going to have a high release. Any little "hitch" may not make much, if any, difference in his scoring or overall shooting percentages.

 

[jonnymo]

It's interesting that you bring up Gonzaga, although there was nothing improper implied about them.

I'm close to someone who is very close to a current blue chip recruit. I know that doesn't get me much more than a bag of chips but I found one thing very interesting that I was told.

I haven't heard Gonzaga and this recruit at all mentioned so I think it was just a general statement since they are around coaches all the time. But I was told that the one school that more coaches get frustrated at in terms of shady dealing is none other than Gonzaga. That truly shocked me.

Maybe it's just that it is expected from the blue bloods but not from the Zags.

I was just referring to getting Canadian/international players

 

[jonnymo]

Creaning has gotten pretty rampant nationally, and for good reason. It's an important roster management tool for coaches who must win games to preserve their livelihoods every single season.

The reaction shouldn't be to shame Tom Crean for innovating, it should be to reform the nature of NCAA scholarships in order to give recruited athletes the protection they deserve.

There are some rumors that two-and-done is going to be the new standard when the next NBA collective bargaining agreement is signed. That would be a convenient moment to prompt a fundamental rethink at the college level.

I don't like this rule at all. In any form.

If a kid wants to make the jump let em. Footballs 3 years removed I totally 100% agree with for safety reasons. 18 year old kids would get murdered.

However I do like baseball's rule. Jump right from HS or must stay in college 3 years. It doesn't have to be 3 years for basketball, but say jump right out of HS or 1 or 2 years

 

[Magoo]

I live a chip shot from Dennis School



Which bar?

Spankys and White Horse. DJ'd at lsb many times in the mid 90s.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[Lord Snow]

I live a chip shot from Dennis School

I do too now.

 

[Obelix]

The way Curry shoots is definitely what allows him to get his shot off quicker than anybody, but Klay Thompson, Ray Allen, and Reggie Miller (all great shooters themselves) all release at the highest or near the highest point of their jump. I'm really not here to debate what the accepted way to shoot is, but more pointing to the absolutes that seem to hold true no matter what your release/form looks like that are the hallmarks of the great shooters. Miller was one of the best shooters around yet his follow through looked awkward at the end and his knees banged together as he was jumping up.

The reason I'm not worried about Pickett, as others said, is that the kid is a gym rat and with his long arms, he is going to have a high release. Any little "hitch" may not make much, if any, difference in his scoring or overall shooting percentages.

I'd add Jeff Malone to your list, for ol' timers' sake

Some of the best shooters of all time did (and still do) have a high release. It does take quite a bit of upper body strength and control but it is more difficult to block. On our team, Nunn had the highest release, KN used to get very good elevation on his jump shot.

There is indeed a trend towards shooting on the way up from many players because you get the benefit of using your legs, without so much dependence on upper body strength. The downside is that you need to be extra quick, because your release point is a lot lower. You can get your shot blocked if you are not very quick. That is the advantage of Curry. He is extremely quick on his shooting move and release, catches the defender off guard, no matter how much defenders know what to expect from him. Extremely difficult.

Both styles can be effective, but both require special skills.

 

[kingt131]

Mt. Zionite here. I probably served drinks to some you at the point in time.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Yes, you DJ'd my sisters 30th bday party... if you are who I think you are.

 

[Tevo]

Indiana Hoosiers Fan here. I check this forum from time to time, but rarely post. Many IU fans are not pleased with Crean's tactics - for most of us (myself included) it began with Matt Roth. A great shooter, a great student, and great person. But what goes around comes around and the following year we struggled shooting from the outside. There has been others and undoubtedly will be more. While "Creaning" is just part of college basketball these days, Crean tends to be very cut-throat in his decisions. Bridges burnt.

FYI - My gut tells me Wilkes will end up at UCLA. They have the #1 recruiting class in the country and that would be hard to turn down. I live 15 minutes from North Central HS in Indy and I watched him play three times last year. He's a man among boys. He may be thin, but don't let that fool ya'.

Thanks for the post -- appreciate the honesty and insight.

 

[UrbanaIsTheShiz]

Proper/new way to shoot: .......

Like This, everyone:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEr5BOMStTM

 

[Second and Chalmers]

However I do like baseball's rule. Jump right from HS or must stay in college 3 years. It doesn't have to be 3 years for basketball, but say jump right out of HS or 1 or 2 years

+1

And with the more developed D-League it could work.

 

[Illinell]

Shooting on the way up is proper mechanics. Shooting at the apex of the jump is bad mechanics, regardless of ancient dogma. When you get to the top of your jump, all the energy transfer comes from your arm and hand. It makes it much harder to get enough power to shoot deep threes: you end up using small muscles that are more difficult to coordinate consistently.

Tell that to Double Dribble. If you don't time it perfectly....'clank'

 

[ChicagoChief]

This is off topic a tad but some here will find interesting.

I have family in Leroy, IL and they say that Matt Chastain is not liking Loyola or the city. Did he not realize that Chicago is very different from Leroy or something?

Look for ISU to be a player if/when he transfers.

 

[Second and Chalmers]

This is off topic a tad but some here will find interesting.

I have family in Leroy, IL and they say that Matt Chastain is not liking Loyola or the city. Did he not realize that Chicago is very different from Leroy or something?

Look for ISU to be a player if/when he transfers.

He's been there for like five minutes.

Stick it out kid, you're supposed to be a bit homesick when you head to college.

 

[sacraig]

He's been there for like five minutes.

Stick it out kid, you're supposed to be a bit homesick when you head to college.

Shoot, for the most part I wasn't. I was so ready to GTFO from my hometown at the time that I'd have happily gone to school on the moon if it was an option.

 

[Obelix]

And with the more developed D-League it could work.

There are totally different dynamics in Baseball than in Basketball. Minor League baseball has a strong following and there is a distinct and clear path to the majors. In addition, college baseball does not have much of a following compared to basketball.

There is not a big enough market for both college basketball and D-League to co-exist on equal basis. Many fans do not even realize that avg. salaries in D-League are meager (a little over $16K per year), and there is a reason for it way beyond NBA teams not wanting to invest more. There is no real market to provide returns. Also, there is a clear/distinct path to the NBA through college as compared to baseball, which has a distinct path through the minor leagues.

 

[Cubby Blue]

There are totally different dynamics in Baseball than in Basketball. Minor League baseball has a strong following and there is a distinct and clear path to the majors. In addition, college baseball does not have much of a following compared to basketball.

There is not a big enough market for both college basketball and D-League to co-exist on equal basis. Many fans do not even realize that avg. salaries in D-League are meager (a little over $16K per year), and there is a reason for it way beyond NBA teams not wanting to invest more. There is no real market to provide returns. Also, there is a clear/distinct path to the NBA through college as compared to baseball, which has a distinct path through the minor leagues.

Hard to follow, but you are right. I have a question. Are NBA teams responsible for providing full education to the kids they draft after one college year like the MLB teams are with all they draft out early from four year or the JC draftee's. My boy caught in college and right now three of his pitchers are still moving up in the minors (one very close) and if and when they are done, the MLB team has to pay the college education. One of his pitchers was actually pre-med and is still planning on finishing his studies when done.

 

[Second and Chalmers]

Also, there is a clear/distinct path to the NBA through college as compared to baseball, which has a distinct path through the minor leagues.

The point is, if the NBA started drafting high schoolers again, the bigger, stronger, developed D-League would present that sort of path in a way it didn't back in the late 90's and early 2000's.

Now, would the draft become entirely high school guys and decimate the talent level of college basketball in that instance? It's very possible. The difference between two and done versus three and done might well make a decisive difference in that regard.

The status quo is okay in terms of making both college and NBA basketball marketable products. The college game gets a glimpse of the elite talent and those guys gain star status in college that makes the draft process exciting for bad NBA teams. But it seems like every party in the system hates the one-and-done rule (including Adam Silver who in theory has the most reason to support it). It hasn't been around that long and is hardly set in stone. I wouldn't be surprised to see that changed in some fashion relatively soon.

 

[Second and Chalmers]

Are NBA teams responsible for providing full education to the kids they draft after one college year

Nope

 

[Hoppy2105]

Wouldn't college basically become the D-league/minors if there was a 3 year requirement?

 

[Obelix]

Hard to follow, but you are right. I have a question. Are NBA teams responsible for providing full education to the kids they draft after one college year like the MLB teams are with all they draft out early from four year or the JC draftee's. My boy caught in college and right now three of his pitchers are still moving up in the minors (one very close) and if and when they are done, the MLB team has to pay the college education. One of his pitchers was actually pre-med and is still planning on finishing his studies when done.

No, unless you put a special provision in your individual contract, but not across the board. The financial dynamics, however, are totally different. If you do make it in the NBA (not just drafted in second round), the contract money is more than enough to let you go back to college even if you do not make it past rookie contract, assuming of course that you do not go crazy and bankrupt.

 

[FormerIllini]

Hard to follow, but you are right. I have a question. Are NBA teams responsible for providing full education to the kids they draft after one college year like the MLB teams are with all they draft out early from four year or the JC draftee's. My boy caught in college and right now three of his pitchers are still moving up in the minors (one very close) and if and when they are done, the MLB team has to pay the college education. One of his pitchers was actually pre-med and is still planning on finishing his studies when done.

Interestingly, MLB teams aren't required to do it. The college stipend is considered part of your signing bonus. Most teams will give it to you regardless of how much you have left because 1) they give less money up front for the bonus (if you are a later pick), and 2) most players never use it. I forget the exact stat but something like 75% get the college money but never go. So that money just ends up back with the team.

 

[Obelix]

The point is, if the NBA started drafting high schoolers again, the bigger, stronger, developed D-League would present that sort of path in a way it didn't back in the late 90's and early 2000's.

There is no market for it to provide the ROI. If there was a potential market, even at the expense of college, they would have done it. There have been multiple efforts to create a new sport market in major sports (e.g., USFL, ABA, CBA) and they all failed, despite the willingness of investors at the time to make large investments.

 

[Obelix]

Interestingly, MLB teams aren't required to do it. The college stipend is considered part of your signing bonus. Most teams will give it to you regardless of how much you have left because 1) they give less money up front for the bonus (if you are a later pick), and 2) most players never use it. I forget the exact stat but something like 75% get the college money but never go. So that money just ends up back with the team.

The reason for its existent is really to preserve the dominance of minor leagues over college baseball. It is intended to entice the players on the fence, the ones who worry about not getting an education - if they do not make it to MLB.

The ones who make it to MLB will obviously have enough money to pay for college once their career is over, although most will not see the added value. Quite a few minor league players who never make it to MLB, but stay in the minors for quite some time, often do not go back to college either. So that percentage will always stay low.

 

[PrudenceJuris]

I've never liked our chances, so I can't really be too disappointed if Wilkes doesn't come here. His statements that he's going to do his own thinking, and not necessarily follow the pack, together with multiple visits and no commitment to IU, do give some hope. On the other hand, if nothing happens this week, it's hard to escape the suspicion that he's waiting until 10/22 and HH to make his announcement for the fans.

Whatever happens, the kid is a breath of fresh air. I wish him well.