Illini Basketball 2023-2024

[skyIdub]

I know that saying anything that could be interpreted as a slight against Da'Monte around here is kinda like sticking your hand in a nest of hornets, but Coleman isn't an offensive liability, much less an offensive liability to the degree Da'Monte was.

He does make some questionable decisions, but it seems like those often come when the offense isn't really clicking. There's probably some two-way causality there, but a lot of his bad shots come when he's the last option available. There was that one possession late in the game on Saturday where he missed a three that seemed like a dagger and folks wondered why that was the shot we got, but it came on the heels of a great defensive sequence by a very good defensive team -- Tennessee successfully rotated about four times and cut off options A-D even though we were moving the ball well -- and it was the only open look that was available.

Not all of his poor shots are like that, but everyone takes some bad ones from time to time, including our prospective first-team All-American. Coleman is far from a guy who you just tolerate because his defense is so good.

It is more of a nod to DMFW's defensive impact, and relating it to the above chart for CoHawk.

As for the offensive side DMFW made significant strides with his shooting to the point of being a statistical leader in the B1G.

 

[dbeverly26]

It is more of a nod to DMFW's defensive impact, and relating it to the above chart for CoHawk.

As for the offensive side DMFW made significant strides with his shooting to the point of being a statistical leader in the B1G.

I mean, he did until he didn't. His 2022 was one of the worst offensive seasons I can recall for a guy who got as much playing time as he did. (He shot 28% from inside the arc, which is...well, it's a thing.)

I'm not trying to slight the guy as I think he was on the whole a valuable player for Illinois. But he was a completely one-dimensional player on offense, and he was able to be effective in that one dimension only when he was surrounded by so much talent that other teams couldn't afford to guard him.

 

[ChiTown]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1735371157896085904

 

[NCIllini10]

I agree totally, But I did see enough of Ayo to know he will come through if he doesn’t slip on a wet floor injure his knee and scare the hell out of us.

 

[Fighter of the Nightman]

You need to quit gaslighting the board with your “facts.”

Don’t you know Coleman’s turnovers are more egregious because they’re dumber and come at worse times than those of the other players?

Are you Coleman Hawkins' dad or something? For me to say that I love the guy and want him on the court while acknowledging that he makes some perplexing turnovers, and for THIS to be your response is truly strange. You're not his PR man.

 

[ptgrd23]

JMO

Coleman feels like Brian Randle sometimes. Great athleticism but struggles to apply it effectively in basketball.

Coleman

Strengths
- handles ball very well for 6'10"
- great leaping ability
- very agile and fast for 6'10"
- can make the spectacular pass
- willing to guard anyone 1-5
- reasonable 3 point shooter when he is stationary and open
- cares about winning
- team first attitude
- great shot blocker

Weakness
- mediocre post game
- reasonable but not elite 3 point shooter. Should not be forcing difficult 3 pointers
- turnover prone while passing
- too emotional over referee calls

TSJ has developed nice mid range game this season. Wish Coleman had done same.

Coleman is at his best when he lets the game come to him.

 

[altgeld88]

In 6 games played this year, Coleman has 12 turnovers - 2.0 per game.

Just for fun, I thought I’d compare some fan favorites in their final years…
3.32 Ayo
2.85 Dee
2.79 Deron
2.33 TSJ (so far)

OK, that was fun! Now, let us carry on with the mantra that CoHawk is a turnover machine…

Darn it, man! My mind is made up; don't confuse me with data!!

Seriously, however, I've noted before that while his boneheaded plays tend to be conspicuous (cause he's a tall one?!), his consistent excellence can be subtle if one isn't paying close attention.

Anyway, enough rationality. Back to shouting at clouds!

 

[Joel Goodson]

Hmmm. BU describes Coleman as being a high-touch, hub-of-the-offense type player. In other words, ball-handler.

fightingillini.com player stats does not have a ‘gobsmackers’ category, but I suppose all the other guys’ turnovers could be of the smarter variety than Hawkins’ dumb ones.

as with a lot of things, there are degrees. Hawkins is a ball handler, but not a primary ball handler, like most of the players you cited

don't like gobsmacked? how bout beer bottle through screen? Hawk leads that category by a country mile

 

[InDaAZ]

Are you Coleman Hawkins' dad or something? For me to say that I love the guy and want him on the court while acknowledging that he makes some perplexing turnovers, and for THIS to be your response is truly strange. You're not his PR man.

Most of your post was excellent, as are many of your posts. I especially appreciated that you broke things down per minute. To my thinking, it confirmed that Coleman’s TO rate is not substantially higher than a lot of other high-usage players.

I was about to hit the “Like” button, but then I read this at the very end:

“However, it is a huge stretch for people to effectively gaslight fans who get frustrated with him, haha”

I’m not sure how using verifiable stats to make a counterpoint is either a ‘stretch’ or ‘gaslighting.’

It’s cool we both enjoy having CH on the team we root for. There are several others, however, who seem to have it out for him. You & I are just two Illini faithful debating one point we disagree on. On a message board designed for such conversations.

Nothing strange about that…

 

[Fighter of the Nightman]

Most of your post was excellent, as are many of your posts. I especially appreciated that you broke things down per minute. To my thinking, it confirmed that Coleman’s TO rate is not substantially higher than a lot of other high-usage players.

I was about to hit the like button, but then I read this at the very end:

“However, it is a huge stretch for people to effectively gaslight fans who get frustrated with him, haha”

I’m not sure how using verifiable stats to make a counterpoint is either a ‘stretch’ or ‘gaslighting.’

It’s cool we both enjoy having CH on the team we root for. There are several others, however, who seem to have it out for him. You & I are just two Illini faithful debating one point we disagree on. On a message board designed for such conversations.

Nothing strange about that…

I tried to say that line with a touch of humor (hence the "haha"), but I did not literally mean you are trying to "gaslight" anyone. My point is just that, through my own lived experience as a fan watching every one of our games, Hawkins has at times frustrated me with some of his turnovers and decision making in a way other players haven't ... so I can certainly empathize with any other fan who feels that way from time to time, and I don't think those fans should get the "anti-facts" treatment that I feel they are getting. Given that the stats do NOT back up that he turns it over any more than other players who have not frustrated me quite as much, the only two logical explanations for me to feel this way are (A) I have a bias against Hawkins or (B) it is the type of turnovers that bugs me rather than the number. And I definitely maintain it is not (A), so I think it is probably (B).

At the end of the day, though, I think he is incredibly valuable to this team, and a turnover is also a turnover ... I might get more worked up in the moment when Coleman passes it to nobody than I do when Shannon picks up a charging foul, but when I step back I can appreciate that they are both the same "statistically." As I said in another one of my posts last week or something, I do think Hawkins is essential to this team's ceiling being high. Shannon pretty much keeps our floor pretty high by himself, but if we are going to make any sort of run this year, we will need Hawkins to continue to play a key role. His defense seems especially undervalued among our fan base!

 

[InDaAZ]

I tried to say that line with a touch of humor (hence the "haha"), but I did not literally mean you are trying to "gaslight" anyone. My point is just that, through my own lived experience as a fan watching every one of our games, Hawkins has at times frustrated me with some of his turnovers and decision making in a way other players haven't ... so I can certainly empathize with any other fan who feels that way from time to time, and I don't think those fans should get the "anti-facts" treatment that I feel they are getting. Given that the stats do NOT back up that he turns it over any more than other players who have not frustrated me quite as much, the only two logical explanations for me to feel this way are (A) I have a bias against Hawkins or (B) it is the type of turnovers that bugs me rather than the number. And I definitely maintain it is not (A), so I think it is probably (B).

At the end of the day, though, I think he is incredibly valuable to this team, and a turnover is also a turnover ... I might get more worked up in the moment when Coleman passes it to nobody than I do when Shannon picks up a charging foul, but when I step back I can appreciate that they are both the same "statistically." As I said in another one of my posts last week or something, I do think Hawkins is essential to this team's ceiling being high. Shannon pretty much keeps our floor pretty high by himself, but if we are going to make any sort of run this year, we will need Hawkins to continue to play a key role. His defense seems especially undervalued among our fan base!

 

[skyIdub]

I mean, he did until he didn't. His 2022 was one of the worst offensive seasons I can recall for a guy who got as much playing time as he did. (He shot 28% from inside the arc, which is...well, it's a thing.)

I'm not trying to slight the guy as I think he was on the whole a valuable player for Illinois. But he was a completely one-dimensional player on offense, and he was able to be effective in that one dimension only when he was surrounded by so much talent that other teams couldn't afford to guard him.

Yes...I get it...again...I was not trying to compare them offensively.

It was a quickie remark about his ability to change the game on defense as it related to the chart above.

I guess I should have quoted that post originally.

"I know that saying anything that could be interpreted as a slight against Da'Monte..."

Not sure why you are continuing to try make a point to do just that. Move on.

 

[Illini in Italy]

Darn it, man! My mind is made up; don't confuse me with data!!

Seriously, however, I've noted before that while his boneheaded plays tend to be conspicuous (cause he's a tall one?!), his consistent excellence can be subtle if one isn't paying close attention.

Anyway, enough rationality. Back to shouting at clouds!

Wait! Don't we draw the curve and THEN plot the data here on Loyalty?

 

[altgeld88]

Wait! Don't we draw the curve and THEN plot the data here on Loyalty?

Here, as in many other areas of life, alas.

I tried to say that line with a touch of humor (hence the "haha"), but I did not literally mean you are trying to "gaslight" anyone. My point is just that, through my own lived experience as a fan watching every one of our games, Hawkins has at times frustrated me with some of his turnovers and decision making in a way other players haven't ... so I can certainly empathize with any other fan who feels that way from time to time, and I don't think those fans should get the "anti-facts" treatment that I feel they are getting. Given that the stats do NOT back up that he turns it over any more than other players who have not frustrated me quite as much, the only two logical explanations for me to feel this way are (A) I have a bias against Hawkins or (B) it is the type of turnovers that bugs me rather than the number. And I definitely maintain it is not (A), so I think it is probably (B).

At the end of the day, though, I think he is incredibly valuable to this team, and a turnover is also a turnover ... I might get more worked up in the moment when Coleman passes it to nobody than I do when Shannon picks up a charging foul, but when I step back I can appreciate that they are both the same "statistically." As I said in another one of my posts last week or something, I do think Hawkins is essential to this team's ceiling being high. Shannon pretty much keeps our floor pretty high by himself, but if we are going to make any sort of run this year, we will need Hawkins to continue to play a key role. His defense seems especially undervalued among our fan base!

A long while ago I stopped having minor aneurysms about Coleman's cross-court, telegraphed passes and histrionics when a call goes against him. It's part of the movable CoHawk feast, the main course of which is shutting down oppo dudes, particularly in the paint, and making some sublime plays.

I don't get agitated about the stuff around the edges. As @RyIllini noted earlier today, we're gonna miss him when he's gone. Plus, IMO he's the next Hummel on BTN color commentary.

 

[Fighter of the Nightman]

Here, as in many other areas of life, alas.


A long while ago I stopped having minor aneurysms about Coleman's cross-court, telegraphed passes and histrionics when a call goes against him. It's part of the movable CoHawk feast, the main course of which is shutting down oppo dudes, particularly in the paint, and making some sublime plays.

I don't get agitated about the stuff around the edges. As @RyIllini noted earlier today, we're gonna miss him when he's gone. Plus, IMO he's the next Hummel on BTN color commentary.

On this same note, it's always so easy to forget how frustrated we got with some past players who now are looked upon fondly! Brandon Paul is an Illini legend who was one of the few bright spots in our decade-long dark age, but he could certainly drive a fan crazy every once in a while! Just part of the ride.

 

[dbeverly26]

Yes...I get it...again...I was not trying to compare them offensively.

It was a quickie remark about his ability to change the game on defense as it related to the chart above.

I guess I should have quoted that post originally.

"I know that saying anything that could be interpreted as a slight against Da'Monte..."

Not sure why you are continuing to try make a point to do just that. Move on.

I prefer to move on at my own pace, thanks. And I'll accept that you weren't making that point in your original post, though I gotta say that honestly and accurately appraising a player's value is not the same thing as slighting him.

Where I personally feel like the slight is in this case -- and you can exclude yourself from this group, or join in, whichever you choose -- is that there's a group of posters on this board that measure value to the team almost solely as a function of whether or not a player makes mistakes, and they ignore the rewards that come with the risks. That's where a comparison between Da'Monte and Hawkins comes in handy to me. Da'Monte did very little in the way of taking risks to create plays. And to be absolutely fair it's worth noting that for most of his career -- and certainly in 2020 and 2021 -- that wasn't his role. He rarely drove the ball, he rarely did much passing that wasn't simple station-to-station stuff, he just took shots when he had them.

Hawkins is not that player. He turns the ball over more than Da'Monte did but he also creates a vastly larger amount of opportunities for himself and his teammates. To me, that's worth it. But to some folks here, it's not, and I really disagree with that point of view. You could plug in a guy like T. Jon Lucas, Esq. as the point guard and it would probably be less annoying, if turnovers and risky plays bother you, but at the end of the day you need to have someone on the court who can make plays. I think that gets lost a lot in the discourse around Hawkins and this team generally.

 

[skyIdub]

 

[Boskydell]

Here, as in many other areas of life, alas.


A long while ago I stopped having minor aneurysms about Coleman's cross-court, telegraphed passes and histrionics when a call goes against him. It's part of the movable CoHawk feast, the main course of which is shutting down oppo dudes, particularly in the paint, and making some sublime plays.

I don't get agitated about the stuff around the edges. As @RyIllini noted earlier today, we're gonna miss him when he's gone. Plus, IMO he's the next Hummel on BTN color commentary.

Hopefully after his long NBA career, because you know, just for fun.

 

[dbeverly26]

 

[ChiTown]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1735489424182423697

 

[illiniswish09]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1735489424182423697

League Him

 

[JFGsCoffeeMug]

 

[Illiniguy2442]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1735489424182423697

This is awesome. Just got done playing D1 baseball at a mid major… have to be dedicated. It really is a full time job

 

[Illini in Italy]

This is awesome. Just got done playing D1 baseball at a mid major… have to be dedicated. It really is a full time job

When did he go to class? (Asking for a friend).

 

[tcb13]

When did he go to class? (Asking for a friend).

I believe he said near the end that he had taken his last final the day before