I agree totally, But I did see enough of Ayo to know he will come through if he doesn’t slip on a wet floor injure his knee and scare the hell out of us.
Illini Basketball 2023-2024
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Fighter of the Nightman
- Chicago, IL
That is awesome! We are officially back to the days of selling out vs. these types of opponents.
(No disrespect ... but the fact is the casual fan doesn't show up for FDU like they do for Indiana or Iowa.)
Joel Goodson
- ties will be resolved
uofi7477
- Silver & Gold Vandals
And Mrs. Henson was the heart of the Coach of that team!
Of course not. But you realize keeping him on the court and having him not shoot threes is an option.
In a crowd this size you'll no doubt find someone adopting the goofiest positions. But I truly can't recall one bench Coleman adherent.
We are better with CH on the floor no doubt, he needs to be on the floor for us to be at our best....but he drives me nutz with (usually 1 or 2 per game) his passing to an imaginary friend (or a forced pass), passing up a 12-15' wide open jump shot to pass it back out to the perimeter....gotta take the good with the bad I guess...but for someone that's projected to play at the next level those are things about his game that I wouldn't expect to see....frustrating
Joel Goodson
- ties will be resolved
yep. every player makes dumb turnovers, but their frequency with CH is puzzling and maddening. was hoping (desperately!) that he'd grow out of it, but I haven't seen it.
InDaAZ
- Eugene, Oregon
In 6 games played this year, Coleman has 12 turnovers - 2.0 per game.
Just for fun, I thought I’d compare some fan favorites in their final years…
3.32 Ayo
2.85 Dee
2.79 Deron
2.33 TSJ (so far)
OK, that was fun! Now, let us carry on with the mantra that CoHawk is a turnover machine…
Best assist to TO’s of starters. Only Amani and Nico better on the team. Fifth on the team with no. Of three pointers attempted. Fourth on a per game average. Am frustrated by his bad passes when he should be shooting twos from ten feet but also posters who dismiss defense.
Joel Goodson
- ties will be resolved
In 6 games played this year, Coleman has 12 turnovers - 2.0 per game.
Just for fun, I thought I’d compare some fan favorites in their final years…
3.32 Ayo
2.85 Dee
2.79 Deron
2.33 TSJ (so far)
OK, that was fun! Now, let us carry on with the mantra that CoHawk is a turnover machine…
break it down per minute. guessing it's a different story. also, the aforementioned were primary ball handlers, whereas Hawkins isn't.
I'm a Hawkins fan. big-time ceiling. but he's wildly inconsistent (offensively), leads in gobsmacked TOs (in my mind, anyway) and quite possibly questionable shot selection too
InDaAZ
- Eugene, Oregon
Hmmm. BU describes Coleman as being a high-touch, hub-of-the-offense type player. In other words, ball-handler.
fightingillini.com player stats does not have a ‘gobsmackers’ category, but I suppose all the other guys’ turnovers could be of the smarter variety than Hawkins’ dumb ones.
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Fighter of the Nightman
- Chicago, IL
Fun to take a look! Here are Hawkins' 2024 TO per minute stats:
vs. Eastern Illinois: 2 turnovers in 14 minutes
vs. Oakland: 2 turnovers 28 minutes
vs. #4 Marquette: 5 turnovers in 30 minutes
at Rutgers: 1 turnover in 26 minutes
vs. #11 FAU (New York, NY): 1 turnover in 26 minutes
at #17 Tennessee: 1 turnover in 36 minutes
So, he had 12 turnovers in 161 minutes played or about 1 turnover every 13 minutes. The same calculation last year has a nearly identical 1 turnover every 13 minutes (81 turnovers in 1,073 minutes played). Compared to those guys InDaAz mentioned:
Ayo 2021: 1 turnover every 11 minutes
Deron Williams: 1 turnover every 12 minutes
TSJ 2023: 1 turnover every 13 minutes
Coleman Hawkins: 1 turnover every 13 minutes
TSJ 2024: 1 turnover every 14 minutes
Dee Brown 2006: 1 turnover every 15 minutes
Dee Brown 2005: 1 turnover every 17 minutes
But none of that hits on the main point you raised, which is why I liked your post. There is no way to break this down statistically (you just have to be a fan experiencing each game and notice it), but it's Coleman's TYPES of turnovers that get people riled up and, to a lesser extent, the time at which they occur.
I have vivid memories of Dee Brown or Deron Williams making what I thought to be a very good pass, but either their teammate wasn't expecting it or another defender just made a REALLY good play. I can easily picture Ayo accidentally carrying the ball or pushing a guy to create space and getting an unfortunate turnover called on him. How many times has Shannon made an awesome drive to the hoop, but he is called for the charge?
The difference with Hawkins is that it seems his turnovers just ... don't have to happen. They SHOULDN'T happen. They're ill-advised passes that a fan watching on TV can see have little chance of success! And they occur at such bad times that have often seemed to affect momentum. I LIKE COLEMAN A LOT, and I think you take the good with the bad of any player on our team!! And there is a ton of good with Hawkins, so I fully support him on the floor! However, it is a huge stretch for people to effectively gaslight fans who get frustrated with him, haha ... he can be a very frustrating player at times.
Maybe he slowly is... his games so far for turnovers..he's been quite good since the injury/break
EIU: 2
Oak 2
Marquette: 5
Time offf
Rutgers: 1
FAU: 1
Tenn: 1
He's been pretty good with the ball the last 3 games..i think we can agree that this recent 1/g phase would be excellent.
Turnovers for the starters over the last 3 games
TSJ: 9
Domask: 6
Ty: 5
Quincy: 5
CH: 3
I think if Coleman wasn't elevated to be such a huge pillar of our team, he wouldn't draw so much ire from our fanbase. He probably easily slots in as the #2 guy in most fans' minds and has the high expectations that come along with that, but honestly Coleman is probably better suited as a #3 or #4 type of team leader - and some of our fanbase's frustration about his play is because we're expecting him to play at a level that isn't what he's capable of and not what his actual role on the team should be.
We're wanting to have an Ayo + Kofi type of 1-2 standout punch with TSJ + Coleman, but in reality he's more of a situational role player (and that's perfectly ok and valuable to our team!).
InDaAZ
- Eugene, Oregon
You need to quit gaslighting the board with your “facts.”
Don’t you know Coleman’s turnovers are more egregious because they’re dumber and come at worse times than those of the other players?
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I know that saying anything that could be interpreted as a slight against Da'Monte around here is kinda like sticking your hand in a nest of hornets, but Coleman isn't an offensive liability, much less an offensive liability to the degree Da'Monte was.
He does make some questionable decisions, but it seems like those often come when the offense isn't really clicking. There's probably some two-way causality there, but a lot of his bad shots come when he's the last option available. There was that one possession late in the game on Saturday where he missed a three that seemed like a dagger and folks wondered why that was the shot we got, but it came on the heels of a great defensive sequence by a very good defensive team -- Tennessee successfully rotated about four times and cut off options A-D even though we were moving the ball well -- and it was the only open look that was available.
Not all of his poor shots are like that, but everyone takes some bad ones from time to time, including our prospective first-team All-American. Coleman is far from a guy who you just tolerate because his defense is so good.
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