2017 Coaching Carousel

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#2,101      

illininks

I
Shawnee, KS
illininks
FollowTisdale said:
John Beilein has made the championship game and the elite 8 three times and put several unheralded (relatively) recruits into the NBA. Thad Matta has made the final 4 and the elite 8 three times and put recruits in the NBA. Matt Painter has made 2 sweet 16s and put several recruits in the NBA.

John Groce has put 0 players in the NBA, is under .500 in the big ten over 5 years, and reached the sweet 16 once by upsetting Michigan then beating a 12 seed. He also has more 20+ point losses in 4.5 years than Illinois has had in the last 30+ years as a basketball program.
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As much as I like Groce as a person and want to see him succeed, I don't think anybody can legitimately disagree with this very well written, brief assessment.

This summary is hard to read as an Illini basketball fan. I still hope Groce succeeds. But if he does I just don't see it happening as an illini HC.
 
#2,102      

Second and Chalmers

S
Second and Chalmers
GameOfThrows said:
Maverick and Malcolm are playing pretty well. Leron and Michael have had good moments. JCL is finding his groove after another preseason injury.
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All of that is true. And yet we get smacked around like a red-headed stepchild every time we play a good team, as we miss rotations and allow uncontested layups and dunks on one end and stand motionless off the ball while traps and double teams swarm our post players at the other end.

It's not even close right now. The total lack of confidence and assertiveness that we play with points toward only one option.
 
#2,103      

Ransom Stoddard

Ransom Stoddard
Ordained Dudeist Priest
Bloomington, IL
Ransom Stoddard
OrangeKrus28 said:
I'll throw another name out there:
Frank Martin----I'm not a big fan of his theatrics/drill instructor-like demeanor and how he yells at his kids, but you can't argue with his success. His style is very B10 like. Defensive-minded coach who instills discipline in his players. His recruiting isn't half bad either. He is like a blend of Bob Knight and Gene Keady. I'm not saying he'd ever leave So. Carolina but look at how he's turned that program around.
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Look deeper at Martin's history, the times he's been reprimanded or suspended, watch him on the court, watch him interact with fans, the media, etc. Not the guy I want in an orange blazer on senior night. Seal Team 6 maybe, but not the Illini sideline.


krushdad said:
The man who came very close to being hired a few years ago.......if he had wanted the job. Johnny Dawkins, had the support and was pushed very hard by several trustees. So I heard.
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No offense, but you want a guy who was fired from Stanford and had a 66-78 PAC10/12 record? Sure, he's got 2 Championships. NIT Championships....
 
#2,105      

illininks

I
Shawnee, KS
illininks
I'm warming to Martin, and some other candidates may be better than Kevin Keatts but here is something I really like about him:

He took over a disaster of a program at UNC-W. they had an average of like 11.5 wins per season for the last 4 years under Buzz Peterson who looks like he might've been run out of coaching all-together.

First year under Keatts they finished first in the Colonial (I know, not a good conference) with records of 18-14 his first year, 25-8 his second (both of which were 1st place finishes in conference) and it looks like he may be on his way to 28 or more wins this year.

One knock on Groce coming in was he never won (or came close to win) in the OVC with Ohio. Once again, a lesser conference, but with lesser overall talent he's killing his conference in all 3 of his years there.

If his name is in the top 3-5 I'm totally fine with that.
 
#2,106      

Second and Chalmers

S
Second and Chalmers
illininks said:
I'm warming to Martin, and some other candidates may be better than Kevin Keatts but here is something I really like about him:

He took over a disaster of a program at UNC-W. they had an average of like 11.5 wins per season for the last 4 years under Buzz Peterson who looks like he might've been run out of coaching all-together.

First year under Keatts they finished first in the Colonial (I know, not a good conference) with records of 18-14 his first year, 25-8 his second (both of which were 1st place finishes in conference) and it looks like he may be on his way to 28 or more wins this year.

One knock on Groce coming in was he never won (or came close to win) in the OVC with Ohio. Once again, a lesser conference, but with lesser overall talent he's killing his conference in all 3 of his years there.

If his name is in the top 3-5 I'm totally fine with that.
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Ohio was so far from winning the OVC they weren't even in the OVC! ;)

But yes, completely agree. A truly remarkable instant impact of a moribund program, followed by significant steps forward in each of the next two years.

The next legendary dynastic coach exists out there somewhere. They all start from somewhere. Put that guy as the head coach of the Hargrave Military Academy in 2010. What does that soon-to-be-superstar's career look like over the next seven years? It looks exactly like what Keatts has done.

Which isn't to say he's proven, but there's no glaring thing you're worried about on his resume.
 
#2,107      

89illinigrad

89illinigrad
Chicago
89illinigrad
Question for those of you who want John Groce fired (based on performance to date): If he manages to right the ship and finish 8-4 or better to make the dance this year, do you think he should be retained (i.e. extended) or do you think its just delaying the inevitable and he should be fired at the end of this season regardless?
 
#2,108      

illininks

I
Shawnee, KS
illininks
Second and Chalmers said:
Ohio was so far from winning the OVC they weren't even in the OVC! ;)

But yes, completely agree. A truly remarkable instant impact of a moribund program, followed by significant steps forward in each of the next two years.

The next legendary dynastic coach exists out there somewhere. They all start from somewhere. Put that guy as the head coach of the Hargrave Military Academy in 2010. What does that soon-to-be-superstar's career look like over the next seven years? It looks exactly like what Keatts has done.

Which isn't to say he's proven, but there's no glaring thing you're worried about on his resume.
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Ugh. Sorry... MAC
 
#2,109      

Ransom Stoddard

Ransom Stoddard
Ordained Dudeist Priest
Bloomington, IL
Ransom Stoddard
89illinigrad said:
Question for those of you who want John Groce fired (based on performance to date): If he manages to right the ship and finish 8-4 or better to make the dance this year, do you think he should be retained (i.e. extended) or do you think its just delaying the inevitable and he should be fired at the end of this season regardless?
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I like John Groce. He's a personable guy and represents the university very well. But--he's had a long, long time to show what he's capable of doing here, and he's pretty much at his ceiling. He has more talent--healthy talent--right now than he's ever had IMO, and it's struggling to score, can't defend, and has a tough time closing out games some times. His in-game adjustments are not at the level needed to compete in the B1G.

There is no reason at all to retain him unless there is literally no one else willing to take the job (which would astound me to no end). Even if we somehow squeak into a seed (opening round or regular), I don't see Groce as the future of our program. If someone isn't the future, they need to become part of our past.
 
#2,110      

ChiefIllini

C
ChiefIllini
89illinigrad said:
Question for those of you who want John Groce fired (based on performance to date): If he manages to right the ship and finish 8-4 or better to make the dance this year, do you think he should be retained (i.e. extended) or do you think its just delaying the inevitable and he should be fired at the end of this season regardless?
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Its going to be a hard decision any way it turns out. If they make the dance, I still would fire him. If he manages to win a game or two in the tourney, he's bought himself another 2 years (sadly). If he misses, hes gone.

Thats my opinion. What Whitman does is beyond me. I can see him ditching him barring a S16 run. Or keeping him with only 7 conference wins. Right now, I'd guess the latter. I know people tend to believe we shouldn't worry about recruits and on roster guys leaving, but it's still a concern.

In the end, I'm not gonna be upset either way with JW. He's shown savviness already with Lovie's hire.
 
#2,111      

Obelix

Obelix
Obelix
OrangeKrus28 said:
I'll throw another name out there:
Frank Martin----I'm not a big fan of his theatrics/drill instructor-like demeanor and how he yells at his kids, but you can't argue with his success. His style is very B10 like. Defensive-minded coach who instills discipline in his players. His recruiting isn't half bad either. He is like a blend of Bob Knight and Gene Keady. I'm not saying he'd ever leave So. Carolina but look at how he's turned that program around.
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Not a fan. Good coach but his antagonistic personality makes him a bad fit for the Illini job IMO. Unfortunately, I feel the same about Buzz WIlliams.
 
#2,112      

mdonsbach

M
mdonsbach
Unfortunately unless Whitman has an Ace up his sleeve I can't imagine a b-ball hire that had the impact that Lovie did. Bar was set pretty high on that one.
 
#2,116      

IntenselyOrange

I
IntenselyOrange
89illinigrad said:
Question for those of you who want John Groce fired (based on performance to date): If he manages to right the ship and finish 8-4 or better to make the dance this year, do you think he should be retained (i.e. extended) or do you think its just delaying the inevitable and he should be fired at the end of this season regardless?
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I'd still fire him. But I can't believe he was allowed to coach this year.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#2,118      

MadSeason

MadSeason
MadSeason
Second and Chalmers said:
Success is tourney success, totally agree.

However, we're not measuring success, we're measuring likelihood of future success. We don't care how happy Nevada or UNC-Wilmington fans are, we want to know what WE'RE gonna get. And to do that the question is not what is success, but what is predictive, what gets at the underlying quality of the team/coach.

To analogize to another sport where drawing out the difference between random sequencing and underlying quality of performance, think of these resumes as pitchers. I'm signing a free agent in the offseason, which guy do I want?

John Groce at Ohio was a guy who had a 4.10 ERA and walked almost as many as he struck out, but who threw a no-hitter in an elimination game in the playoffs.

Kevin Keatts is a guy with a 2.60 ERA who struck out a batter an inning for a 95-loss team.

Baseball has gotten smart about this in the past couple decades. College AD's should have a similar level of understanding.
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Tourney success is part of the equation going forward as well. Groce didn't have the type of post season that we were discussing earlier. All post season success is not equal and it's certainly not random sequencing. Random sequencing dictates that Gene Keady or Rick Barnes would have grabbed a championship or at least Final 4 at some point.Rick Pitino got his job at UK solely on a tournament run and that turned out ok.

Bennett is a tremendous coach with an even brighter future, but there isn't a planet on which his hiring is better than Self or Caliper. Both those guys had more regular season AND tourney success.
 
#2,119      

Second and Chalmers

S
Second and Chalmers
MadSeason said:
Random sequencing dictates that Gene Keady or Rick Barnes would have grabbed a championship or at least Final 4 at some point.
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Rick Barnes did make a Final Four.

Bennett is a tremendous coach with an even brighter future, but there isn't a planet on which his hiring is better than Self or Caliper. Both those guys had more regular season AND tourney success.
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Calipari had a lot of success, but in lower conferences. Tough to draw a comparison. Self had had success too, just clearly less than Bennett.

And there is no regular season versus tournament question here. Consider the whole. Consider your entire sample size.
 
#2,120      

Second and Chalmers

S
Second and Chalmers
89illinigrad said:
Question for those of you who want John Groce fired (based on performance to date): If he manages to right the ship and finish 8-4 or better to make the dance this year, do you think he should be retained (i.e. extended)
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I do. Think of the sea change that would have to happen for us to finish 8-4. We haven't seen that team yet. That's the team we're waiting for.
 
#2,121      

WesterveltVictoryCigar

WesterveltVictoryCigar
WesterveltVictoryCigar
Bphill05 said:
I have been following Frank Martin for some time and I don't approve of all of his methods either but he is a very good coach. He is also very good with turning around program. However one thing he is not great at is teams that produce offense. This is the same with Bennett at Virginia and Huggins at WVU. This is also why these teams rarely make it as far as they are projected. When great defense fails these teams can lose to anyone. I am as tired of stagnant offense as every other Illini fan, and this is why we need a more offensive minded coach. ILL...:illinois::shield:
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Not true for Bennett and Huggins. You're looking at outdated stats probably, points per game I'd guess? If you look at tempo free stats which adjust for pace of play, they have very good offenses. Using Pomeroys rankings, Bennett's offenses have been in the top 30 the last 4 seasons.

89illinigrad said:
Question for those of you who want John Groce fired (based on performance to date): If he manages to right the ship and finish 8-4 or better to make the dance this year, do you think he should be retained (i.e. extended) or do you think its just delaying the inevitable and he should be fired at the end of this season regardless?
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At this point I think it's time to move on regardless.

If he does have that strong finish then I'm guessing he does stay on.
 
#2,124      

dmac279

D
dmac279
89illinigrad said:
Question for those of you who want John Groce fired (based on performance to date): If he manages to right the ship and finish 8-4 or better to make the dance this year, do you think he should be retained (i.e. extended) or do you think its just delaying the inevitable and he should be fired at the end of this season regardless?
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Loved to see it, but just don't see it happening.
 
#2,125      

MadSeason

MadSeason
MadSeason
Second and Chalmers said:
Rick Barnes did make a Final Four.



Calipari had a lot of success, but in lower conferences. Tough to draw a comparison. Self had had success too, just clearly less than Bennett.

And there is no regular season versus tournament question here. Consider the whole. Consider your entire sample size.
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My bad on Barnes forgot they played Melo

I am considering the whole, I don't think you are. Self won 4 Conference titles and a 2nd place finish prior to Kansas. 2 elite 8 appearances and a Sweet 16.

Bennett has 2 conference titles and a second place finish. 2 Sweet 16 and Elite 8.

Yes Bennett did most of the damage in the ACC but Self was in Big 10.

Calipari? It's not close and conference affiliation doesn't really matter when you have 3 Elite 8 appearance and 2 Final 4's including championship game. I don't know how many #1 seeds he had. At least 3 prior to UK
 
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