Anybody who watch Cal last night saw basically the same defense from the Illini. Wide open 3s In transition poor defensive movement. Blown out by 20 and Brooks didn't play at all the 2nd half with an injury towards end of 1st half. It literally looked like the Illini out there.
2017 Coaching Carousel
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Careful of small sample sizes. Overall this year Cal has been very good defensively
If you read half of what I have written on here then you would realize that I have been wanting him to get next year and see what happens. I still haven't lost faith in Groce and I'm the only one. Smith exact words was have a relationship with head coach. So with every single person wanting him gone I said doesn't sound good on Smith.
I've been wanting Groce to stay Ford fired and Deon brought in to replace Ford. Deon has the knowledge and can teach Tillmon a lot. Plus Ford has done nothing entire time here from what I have seen.
I'm glad there are other supporters and sorry, was a mistake to attribute my comments to your quote as my comments are more reflective of the general sentiment here and much less about what you had said. My apologies - wasn't singling you out.
No worries just wanted to let you know your not the only one as I thought I was only one.
Ransom Stoddard
Ordained Dudeist Priest
- Bloomington, IL
You don't know this anymore than anyone "knows" he's going to be removed. It's been debated on this forum ad nauseum as to if Groce has demonstrated the ability to be the future of this program and in my view there is very little evidence that he has that ability
That's a very poor reason to retain someone who hasn't demonstrated the ability to do the rest of the job.
1. Weber
2. Groce isn't the only person on the planet that can relate to student athletes. This is a poor reason IMO to keep someone.
Our defensive statistics indicate that something is wrong. I have a hard time believing that the coach isn't at least part of the problem.
There's really nothing particularly wrong with this roster other than they play poor defense.
Having followed this thread from its first post, I think that the vast majority would love to see Groce succeed. I myself see no evidence that he ever could, even if he had Villanova's roster handed to him.
Not so fast my friend... Groce is on one of the hottest seats in CBB.
You're right I'm sure he teaches D in practice. And its the players responsibility to execute it in game. If they dont, it falls on the coach to adjust. So sorry I blame Groce for lack of identity and defense, and not a lack of execution on 18-22 y.o. kids.
I think JCL and Black were pretty much elite talent coming into college. Maybe not Tilmon level but close. It's still Groce's fault he hasn't recruited more or developed what he already has. Lack of talent. at least appearnent, isn't the issue with our roster.
I think the amount of posters who actually want Groce to do poorly the rest of the season so he gets canned is minimal. I support Groce and I hope he does well and agree that until he's no longer our coach I'm gonna support the team and him (though maybe not his decision making).
Of course this isnt 100% Groce's fault, but a heck of a lot is. More than a player or two will change. The incoming class isn't going to make us into Kentucky next year. Tilmon, Smith, Fraizer, Pickett, and Williams aren't going to make this a top 25 team.
Hey all, following up on my previous post HERE:
There was at least one request for a fuller data set with previous years of KenPom. I went ahead and compiled a spreadsheet with the Overall, AdjO, AdjD, and Tempo #s as well as 247 Recruiting Class Rank for every target included in that post for their entire tenure at their current school, + the year prior to their arrival for comparison. Image sample to follow, and here is the link to it on Google Sheets.
I think there's some really interesting stuff in there worth discussing, take a look, let me know what you think (I am open to requests for additional data addition as well, and please feel free to request formatting changes if you feel they will make it more readable). :thumb:
Link to it on Google Sheets.
All I can say is WOW! Great job!
Maryland's title team? Steve Blake and Chris Wilcox had long NBA careers and Lonny Baxter and Juan Dixon had relatively substantial ones as well.
We talk about success in the Big Ten, we're behind Iowa, Penn State, Nebraska, Minnesota, Northwestern, are there NBA players on any of those teams?
We have talented players who want to play professionally. In terms of players who WILL play professionally, not sure why this vaunted system hasn't seen fit to bring us a single one yet.
Agreed
Several? Who other than Tilmon?
If they've shown promise of being winning basketball players, as opposed to talented ones, then why are we 2-4 in the Big Ten and getting humiliated by every good team we play?
The argument does not add up at all.
I'm optimistic that Frazier could be good because we have generally targeted really good point guards:
Mo Watson
Nic Moore
Jawun Evans (early)
Brunson
Quentin Snyder
Tyler Ennis
Xaiver Rathan-Mayes
D. Jax
I actually feel Groce had potential to be a great recruiter if he was even a mediocre Big Ten level coach. Unfortunately, he is not a very good coach.
Mo Watson
Nic Moore
Jawun Evans (early)
Brunson
Quentin Snyder
Tyler Ennis
Xaiver Rathan-Mayes
D. Jax
I actually feel Groce had potential to be a great recruiter if he was even a mediocre Big Ten level coach. Unfortunately, he is not a very good coach.
IlliniInOK
- no longer in OK! Centralia, IL
Here is your complete list of active coaches with a F4 appearance:
K, Roy Williams, Izzo, Pitino, Boeheim, Calipari, Donovan, Howland, Huggins, Kruger, Matta, Self, BStevens, Wright, Beilein, Crean, Mike Davis, Steve Fisher, Larranaga, Ollie, Sampson, Shaka, Tubby, JT3, and Bruce
So the Final 4 coach? Not an option.
Make no mistake whatsoever: TJL and Frazier are the product of John Groce lowering his sights in terms of what he needs in a point guard.
Charlie Moore and Paul Scruggs are the guys that belong on that list, not Lucas and Frazier. Groce couldn't afford to put on the bridesmaid dress in those recruitments, so he did what he should have done all along and went and found the best guy he could actually get.
mattcoldagelli
- The Transfer Portal with Do Not Contact Tag
Ah yes, as evidenced by the NBA-caliber talent that is banging down our doors. What's that old saying - the most dangerous place in the world is between a stud HS basketball player and an offense featuring low-percentage jump shots? Something like that, I think.
Wait but you just said the offense is why
ILL in IA
- Iowa City
How many schools can say they have employed 3 of the coaches on this list. We got that going for us...
Gregg Marshall is missing.
If a cogent argument existed that our expected future success with Groce exceeded that of the expected future success with what our market positioning dictates the expected future value of a new coaching hire to be, I would be making it, at least to have it out there for the group to chew on.
It doesn't exist. The only route there is that what we're seeing is not really what we're seeing and its about to shift substantially. Which is possible, but becoming a dimmer hope all the time.
At this point the feebleness and obvious contradictions of the arguments for retention are doing as much damage as each passing loss. The case just isn't there to make.
It doesn't exist. The only route there is that what we're seeing is not really what we're seeing and its about to shift substantially. Which is possible, but becoming a dimmer hope all the time.
At this point the feebleness and obvious contradictions of the arguments for retention are doing as much damage as each passing loss. The case just isn't there to make.
As we are back to debating next year's recruiting class, this seems like a good time to say that a slow day at work means time for quick turnaround on updates :thumb:
Updated sheet with conference recruiting rankings and average grade
Thanks for the feedback thus far, glad folks like it. Should be as accurate as 1 man can be, apologies if I mixed an 8 and a 9 in one entry or something if someone does happen to catch an error.
Summary of Findings: Buzz is 'crootin his butt off for a VT coach, wow
Updated sheet with conference recruiting rankings and average grade
Thanks for the feedback thus far, glad folks like it. Should be as accurate as 1 man can be, apologies if I mixed an 8 and a 9 in one entry or something if someone does happen to catch an error.
Summary of Findings: Buzz is 'crootin his butt off for a VT coach, wow
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I wish Will Wade and Matt McCall were the same person. They're practically the same person, but because there's two of them I can't ferret out if either or both of them are actually good.
You could make a Frankenstein of those two resumes that would be perfect.
You could make a Frankenstein of those two resumes that would be perfect.
IlliniInOK
- no longer in OK! Centralia, IL
Groce chose to ride or die with this staff. Was given that and expectations were set. He can maybe pull off a miracle here, but doesn't look good. Stubbornness is a killer.
I honestly thought the same thing, they're both super similar resumes, although VCU is in a better conference.
It's not just the resumes
They were born less than a year apart, both from the South, both were student managers rather than players at Power Five southern schools. And then both become Boy Wonder head coaches at Chattanooga. It's spooky.
But if you took McCall's background, added Wade's two years at Chattanooga to his, and tacked on Wade's two VCU years to the front end, and made your combo person 36 or 37? Boom. There's our guy.
But alas, separate people.
Wade was looking much better a week ago btw. A couple of terrible road losses for VCU this week, and their upcoming schedule is daunting. Trial by fire for the young man's Power Five job hopes.
I Bomb
Stylin' and Profilin'
As we are back to debating next year's recruiting class, this seems like a good time to say that a slow day at work means time for quick turnaround on updates :thumb:
Updated sheet with conference recruiting rankings and average grade
Thanks for the feedback thus far, glad folks like it. Should be as accurate as 1 man can be, apologies if I mixed an 8 and a 9 in one entry or something if someone does happen to catch an error.
Summary of Findings: Buzz is 'crootin his butt off for a VT coach, wow
I'll admit I didn't thoroughly crunch any numbers, but I more than skimmed it - it looks to me like Groce would be in the lower ranks of coaches in terms of translating recruiting classes into wins. Although, I have to think conference strength plays a big part in that, too. Gregg Marshall at the top of that list, not surprisingly.
I would still take Scott Nagy over the other names being said on here. Local Kid, lots of ties to the Illini, been to the NCAA a few times, Do I think he can recruit really no idea on that, I think it would all depend on who he had for his asst. BUt I would be willing to bet a lot of money he would have at the very least 1 ex Illini on his staff. That said I still think its going to be hard for Groce to be gone, but even if he isn't I do think he needs to shake up his staff a little, I think we will know before March if he will or wont be here. IF JW hasn't given him 2 more years by then, He is gone and JW already has the next coach just waiting on the season to end
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