2017 Coaching Carousel

Tevo · Jan 23, 2017

homesickalien said:
1. Pretty clear Groce has underperformed with the players he has brought in
2. Someone email this to Whitman

Man, the more data you see, the better Bennett looks. He had the 10th, 8th, and 8th best classes in the conference, and in the following years after each class, his teams finished 2nd, 1st and 1st in the ACC. And in case you haven't followed college hoops, there are some pretty decent players and coaches in the ACC. That is super impressive.

MadSeason · Jan 23, 2017

Second and Chalmers said:
As is the assertion that we will get a very good recruiter who will build a consistent winner at Illinois without necessarily being a great X's and O's coach.

It's both. And there's more to it than just those two things as well.

What is your definition of great x and o's?

May just be semantics on my end but I don't see guys like Calipari, Roy Williams, Self, Matta as great coaches. I think they are good coaches though.

Izzo now that's a great coach

Calvin · Jan 23, 2017

mattcoldagelli said:
John Groce is recruiting decently, but is turning out to be possibly league-worst when it comes to the in-season part of the job.

It is interesting to me that his best coaching at Illinois came with a team that learned someone else's system, then he came in and motivated them.

Second and Chalmers · Jan 23, 2017

Calvin said:
It is interesting to me that his best coaching at Illinois came with a team that learned someone else's system, then he came in and motivated them.

It's not like they kept running Weberball. Groce fundamentally changed what we did.

IntenselyOrange · Jan 23, 2017

Second and Chalmers said:
It's not like they kept running Weberball. Groce fundamentally changed what we did.

But they would have had some defensive fundamentals driven into them.

Golfer63 · Jan 23, 2017

Tevo said:
Man, the more data you see, the better Bennett looks. He had the 10th, 8th, and 8th best classes in the conference, and in the following years after each class, his teams finished 2nd, 1st and 1st in the ACC. And in case you haven't followed college hoops, there are some pretty decent players and coaches in the ACC. That is super impressive.

Do people realistically think Bennett would come here? I know we all probably thought Lovie was a major reach until Whitman actually pulled it off.

I just have a hard time believing Bennett would leave a program that he has built into a year in and year out top 10 program in the nation's best conference, unless a blue blood came calling.

peace davids · Jan 23, 2017

With Bruce Almighty's big win against WVU over the weekend, I had to make a quick comparison of UI vs. KSU since the departure.

KSU - 94-58 Overall, 41-38 in the B12 - One NCAA tourney appearance - and could make a good run this year.

UI - 89-68 Overall, 31-47 in the B10 - One NCAA tourney appearance - not looking too strong this year.

There are some similarities there and factors for comparison. K-State is trending in a good direction on the court - we are trending in a good direction with recruiting. The biggest problem for me is that we moved on from BW with hopes of improving from his level of success. Frankly - we have not, and he is in the process of surpassing us since his departure.

Given Groce's comments of this being "results based" and "no excuses". I can't see where he sticks around given his record and lack of improvement.

I'll throw out a flier on a replacement - just because it is fun to think of a Lovie-style out of the box option. - Mike Brown, former Cavs/Lakers coach and currently an assistant with the Warriors.

Second and Chalmers · Jan 23, 2017

MadSeason said:
What is your definition of great x and o's?

May just be semantics on my end but I don't see guys like Calipari, Roy Williams, Self, Matta as great coaches. I think they are good coaches though.

Izzo now that's a great coach

All four of those guys you named are outstanding coaches. John Calipari would beat Bruce Weber with Kansas State's roster and he would beat Bruce Weber if you gave Bruce Kentucky's roster. Or pick a different guy with a "coaches coach" reputation who has a spotty track record.

Cal pre-Camby at UMass, Self at Tulsa, Matta at Xavier, all of those guys have proven what kind of coaches they are, and when you add in their ability to not just get elite talent, but have those kids ready early and make their inexperienced teams into low-mistake units who share the ball, play both ends of the floor, and understand and care about the little things, that's why they're superstars in the profession. The Josh Pastners and Rick Barnes' and Lorenzo Romars of the world get exposed quickly, even with their McDAA's.

I think I'd probably have Izzo at the top of the heap, but he's no stranger to elite talent and doing those things I mentioned either.

Being able to score a 1600 on your basketball SAT doesn't mean anything if you can't express it on the floor through the work you've done with your players. It's not how much you know, it's how much you can teach, and how ingrained and instinctual that teaching is when the circumstances get tough.

bombayIllini · Jan 23, 2017

IntenselyOrange said:
But they would have had some defensive fundamentals driven into them.

Well, the players have responsibility to execute.

If in the middle of the season a coach needs to clean up, then either the person is a bad coach or the kids do not execute in a game situation. Of course the coach is ultimately responsible, but in this case these kids have let him down to some extent. On the flip side Coach has this weird preference for older players who do not do well. As a result the best are not on the court most of the time. His philosophy of practice dictates game minutes also baffles me. Not all players follow that script.

Not sure if this is the thread for the following, but, I would give Groce another year.

Second and Chalmers · Jan 23, 2017

IntenselyOrange said:
But they would have had some defensive fundamentals driven into them.

Instinctive stuff and energy and how hard you have to work at that end, sure.

But the system was radically different. From active ball pressure and overplaying the passing lanes to sagging, help-happy paint-stuffing.

And the offense was quite different too, though if our guys had learned Weber's offense, they sure didn't demonstrate it while he coached them. :tsk:

mattcoldagelli · Jan 23, 2017

Second and Chalmers said:
Being able to score a 1600 on your basketball SAT doesn't mean anything if you can't express it on the floor through the work you've done with your players. It's not how much you know, it's how much you can teach, and how ingrained and instinctual that teaching is when the circumstances get tough.

To me, this is why our defense this year is probably the biggest indictment one could offer of the current coaching staff.

I don't want to hear about Nnanna Egwu. I don't want to hear about effort, or heart, or whatever other mythical source (grit?) gets credited for defensive effectiveness. It's about preparation and awareness.

So that tells me that our coaches are 1) failing in the short term by adequately preparing us to understand what a given opponent will throw at us and 2) failing in the long term by not being able to determine what it takes to get the players we have know and implement our basic defensive principles.

Kajagoogoo · Jan 23, 2017

bombayIllini said:
Not sure if this is the thread for the following, but, I would give Groce another year.

Holy cow, really? You haven't seen enough mediocrity the last 4 years to know Groce can't coach?

ILL in IA · Jan 23, 2017

I will assume all coaches already in the Big Ten are off limits, but what about Tim Miles?

Second and Chalmers · Jan 23, 2017

ILL in IA said:
I will assume all coaches already in the Big Ten are off limits, but what about Tim Miles?

I think he's a good coach who will turn it around there, but his Nebraska tenure has been unremarkable thus far and in any event, Jim Delany would throw his body in front of an intra-conference move.

TCTORNADO · Jan 23, 2017

ILL in IA said:
I will assume all coaches already in the Big Ten are off limits, but what about Tim Miles?

Only if he could bring Watson and Morrow with him.

Obelix · Jan 23, 2017

mattcoldagelli said:
And degree matters too, you know? Like, John Groce is recruiting decently, but is turning out to be possibly league-worst when it comes to the in-season part of the job. Someone who was even just above average (not great) would be having a different season than the one we're having.

Of course degree matters, that is why scraping the bottom of the barrel to find a Pat Kennedy example will not work. If you are a great recruiter, being even an average coach or slightly above average coach can make you successful at UI.

But Groce did not prove to be a really good recruiter at Illinois. Many positional gaps at key positions, and overall talent (not rankings) has not been great. The talent we got in the Groce era has been highly exaggerated by inflated fan expectations.

OrangeKrus28 · Jan 23, 2017

I was just listening to the postgame radio show and I think they took close to 10 callers or so and about 9/10 of them were completely in favor of moving on from Groce. Even Scott Beatty and Michael Kiser appear to have finally let up and are no longer talking as highly of Groce and are not saying to give it more time. I listen to most of these postgame radio shows as I find it interesting to see how others feel about the state of the program. I hope that Whitman listened or will listen because I think he will understand the frustration of the fans about the state of the program. But, I think the fans have surrendered the white flag.

Obelix · Jan 23, 2017

If a coach is not a great recruiter at UI, at the end, his coaching will always be criticized. As much as I thought Weber was a terrible choice at Illinois (for reasons stated) it would be unfair to brand Weber as a bad X's and O's coach. There is zero evidence that is you give Weber Cal or Self level talent he can't succeed just as much, and the couple of years that he did indeed have Self level talent at UI, he did do very well, short of winning the NC.

He has motivational and other issues, his X's and O's is solid, but his recruiting sub-par. That is why he will occasionally have a good season (2008-09) or maybe this year at KSU, but at the end he can't build a consistent conference winner with NCAA success at high-majors. JMO.

Jimmy McNulty · Jan 23, 2017

ILL in IA said:
I will assume all coaches already in the Big Ten are off limits, but what about Tim Miles?

If we are throwing out Big Ten coaches then you don't even need to leave the state to find the guy that should be the replacement.

Obelix · Jan 23, 2017

ILL in IA said:
I will assume all coaches already in the Big Ten are off limits, but what about Tim Miles?

B1G is the least of concerns with Tim Miles. A 30-49 current B1G record finishing above 10th just one time in his B1G tenure, hardly make him the type of coach Illinois needs at the current state of the program.

WesterveltVictoryCigar · Jan 23, 2017

Obelix said:
But Groce did not prove to be a really good recruiter at Illinois. Many positional gaps at key positions, and overall talent (not rankings) has not been great. The talent we got in the Groce era has been highly exaggerated by inflated fan expectations.

Both he and Weber also had some bad luck or made some bad gambles that blew up in their faces. Weber had the great 2010 class that included a psychopath, an effective one-and-done and a damaged athlete. As you noted earlier, surrounding that with empty 2008 and 2012 classes really hurts the program.

Then Groce decided to go quick fix with transfers and had similar luck with Cosby, Paul, Starks not going quite according to plan. That's a bunch of scholarships spent with hardly any return. Even some of his better recruits have cost extra time or ended prematurely (Nunn, Black, Colbert). And he chased high end PGs and got left with nothing there as well.

Illinoise · Jan 23, 2017

John Groce isn't a horrible coach. He struck out on his home run swings for recruits. The second tier players that he took simply haven't played up to their ranking. Because his recruiting rankings are middle of the pack doesn't mean that the players he got are middle of the pack big 10 quality. Malcolm Hill and Mav Morgan are the only two players that he has recruited that I would say have lived up to their recruiting rankin, maybe throw in Finke. . What is the cause of that? Some say player development, I say these guys just aren't good enough. The coach still bears that responsibility of recognizing the recruits abilities beyond their ranking. Leron Black, Aaron Jordan, DJ Williams, Jalen Coleman Lands. None of those guys are playing up to the expectations coming in. I've seen where some credit him for excellent talent evaluation because he gets in on kids early that then blow up. I would reject that assessment of him based on the kids that he has signed. College basketball is a recruiting game and his lack of success there is the reason he will be gone at the end of this season.

Second and Chalmers · Jan 23, 2017

Illinoise said:
John Groce isn't a horrible coach. He struck out on his home run swings for recruits. The second tier players that he took simply haven't played up to their ranking.

Let us not pretend that guys like Kendrick Nunn, Leron Black, and JCL were not "Plan A" recruits.

Tevo · Jan 23, 2017

Second and Chalmers said:
Neither am I. Of course, I'm not ready to anoint Cuonzo Martin as a Self-like recruiter at Illinois either.

Hasn't Cuonzo recruited BETTER the past three seasons than Self did at Illinois? From what I'm reading, he's pulling a 5-star pretty much every year. As far as I can remember, Dee Brown was Self's only 5-star in three seasons at Illinois. I'm sure I'll be corrected, if I'm wrong.

The difference, of course, was the Self took his (and Lon's) guys and won the conference twice and won 6 tournament games in three years. Cuonzo's done none of that.

dmac279 · Jan 23, 2017

mattcoldagelli said:
To me, this is why our defense this year is probably the biggest indictment one could offer of the current coaching staff.

I don't want to hear about Nnanna Egwu. I don't want to hear about effort, or heart, or whatever other mythical source (grit?) gets credited for defensive effectiveness. It's about preparation and awareness.

So that tells me that our coaches are 1) failing in the short term by adequately preparing us to understand what a given opponent will throw at us and 2) failing in the long term by not being able to determine what it takes to get the players we have know and implement our basic defensive principles.

Bingo, and you can't teach quickness or or being athletic.