2017 St. Louis Cardinals

hermie1985 · Dec 5, 2017

Still looks like Stanton is balking at both the Giants and St and trying to force Miami to take some bad contracts back from the Dodgers.

Marlins will have to look hard at what the projected win total comes to with whatever LA might do. Marlins also have to look at their projected wins with Stanton and pitching that Ozuna or Yelich brings back.

I still think LA deal for Stanton or Ozuna or Yelich for us. I really don't believe Miami has to tear it all down.

hermie1985 · Dec 5, 2017

LA has no real incentive to take Stanton now. Harper available next year or Stanton at his opt out down the road. I like our chances getting something from the Marlins.

FollowTisdale · Dec 5, 2017

Illwinsagain said:
Or at least inexperienced. Part of me wants Yelich more, but that might just be the risk averse part of me. It would leave more payroll for pitching. A lot can happen in 10 years, it's a lot to eat if something goes wrong. The contract for Stanton is set up for him to stay, with the highest payouts after the 3 year out. That being said, him sitting at the 3 or 4, with high OBP guys in front, would be fun to watch!

I would be just as happy with Yelich as I would be with Stanton. It would be a 3 win upgrade instead of a 5 win upgrade for the next few years, but still an upgrade none the less.

I'm still hoping all the talk about Stl being in contact with Tampa Bay for Colome is also including talk about a blockbuster Archer deal.

Illwinsagain · Dec 5, 2017

Cards expected to sign Miles Mikolas, former Texas Ranger (baseball kind) and 3 years in Japan. Seems like he should match up with Maddox well. Eating inning pitcher with more control/pitch variety than velocity.

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2017/12/cardinals-nearing-multi-year-deal-with-miles-mikolas.html

Edit: The comments below the article are pretty funny.

champaignchris · Dec 5, 2017

The Dodgers are WAY over the luxury tax amount and have Gonzalez and Kazmir in line to make over $40M this year for no expected performance before becoming free agents next year.

The Dodgers could send Gonzalez, Kazmir, Puig and some low level prospects (and maybe $10M cash) to the Marlins for Stanton. Take on his whole contract and still get under the luxury tax. The Dodgers become a better team now and the Marlins are clear of their salary problems after 2018 while getting a marketable player under team control for a couple more years.

Seems like it could work for both sides. With all their cost-controlled young talent, the Dodgers are one of the few teams that could take Stanton’s contract and not feel it in the immediate next few years.

hermie1985 · Dec 5, 2017

champaignchris said:
The Dodgers are WAY over the luxury tax amount and have Gonzalez and Kazmir in line to make over $40M this year for no expected performance before becoming free agents next year.

The Dodgers could send Gonzalez, Kazmir, Puig and some low level prospects (and maybe $10M cash) to the Marlins for Stanton. Take on his whole contract and still get under the luxury tax. The Dodgers become a better team now and the Marlins are clear of their salary problems after 2018 while getting a marketable player under team control for a couple more years.

Seems like it could work for both sides. With all their cost-controlled young talent, the Dodgers are one of the few teams that could take Stanton’s contract and not feel it in the immediate next few years.

Agree it can happen. Thought it would. I'm just not sure the Marlins are convinced they can't make a path with Stanton until closer to his opt out.

We do know that the framework for a trade with the Cards or Giants is in place but not happening. Must assume negotiations with Dodgers isn't complete or Stanton is just a no to both StL and SF.

FollowTisdale · Dec 5, 2017

hermie1985 said:
Agree it can happen. Thought it would. I'm just not sure the Marlins are convinced they can't make a path with Stanton until closer to his opt out.

We do know that the framework for a trade with the Cards or Giants is in place but not happening. Must assume negotiations with Dodgers isn't complete or Stanton is just a no to both StL and SF.

The Marlins came out and said they need to cut payroll to $90MM, and there were rumors out there that number is actually going to be closer to $75MM. If they stand pat, their opening day payroll in 2018 would be $132MM.

It's possible, but in no way plausible, that they could hold on to Stanton while shedding payroll elsewhere. To cut $42MM in payroll without moving Stanton, they've have to trade Ozuna ($12MM), Dee Gordon ($10.8MM), Martin Prado ($13.5MM), and Yelich ($7MM). A Marlins team with Stanton and none of those players wins probably 60 games next year with no good young players left on the team to build for the future.

There's just no realistic scenario where Stanton doesn't get traded to the Giants or Cardinals at this point. The Dodgers don't want him, if they did and had even close to a reasonable deal, they'd have made the deal a month ago.

IlliniJim20 · Dec 5, 2017

FollowTisdale said:
There's just no realistic scenario where Stanton doesn't get traded to the Giants or Cardinals at this point. The Dodgers don't want him, if they did and had even close to a reasonable deal, they'd have made the deal a month ago.

What about the no trade clause? Granted I am mostly following these details via this thread, but if Stanton is truly blocking any trade except to the Dodgers, what can the Marlins do? Shed all big payroll but him?

Marlins won't due it to spite him, I'm not saying that. But if they are left with little choice but to have him and nobody else, what recourse do they have?

hermie1985 · Dec 5, 2017

FollowTisdale said:
The Marlins came out and said they need to cut payroll to $90MM, and there were rumors out there that number is actually going to be closer to $75MM. If they stand pat, their opening day payroll in 2018 would be $132MM.

It's possible, but in no way plausible, that they could hold on to Stanton while shedding payroll elsewhere. To cut $42MM in payroll without moving Stanton, they've have to trade Ozuna ($12MM), Dee Gordon ($10.8MM), Martin Prado ($13.5MM), and Yelich ($7MM). A Marlins team with Stanton and none of those players wins probably 60 games next year with no good young players left on the team to build for the future.

There's just no realistic scenario where Stanton doesn't get traded to the Giants or Cardinals at this point. The Dodgers don't want him, if they did and had even close to a reasonable deal, they'd have made the deal a month ago.

I think it makes more sense to say no realistic scenario he doesn't hold out for what he wants. To accept a non Dodger trade means two years of where he doesn't want to be and requires an opt out (not good if production declines) To stay put in Miami means he might get to LA quicker (next week or next year) with no opt out.

blmillini · Dec 5, 2017

IlliniJim20 said:
What about the no trade clause? Granted I am mostly following these details via this thread, but if Stanton is truly blocking any trade except to the Dodgers, what can the Marlins do? Shed all big payroll but him?

Marlins won't due it to spite him, I'm not saying that. But if they are left with little choice but to have him and nobody else, what recourse do they have?

The Marlins have already told Stanton that they have to shed payroll one way or another. So, if he does not approve a trade, they will start moving other players. He doesn't want that.

hermie1985 · Dec 5, 2017

I never thought the Marlins would get both prospects and almost a complete salary dump. Cards and Giants stepping up big.

hermie1985 · Dec 5, 2017

I think Stanton wants his current long term contract in LA. He doesn't care if Miami has to take some bad contracts back from LA. He doesn't want LA via StL or SF.

The question is how bad does he want out of Miami. Doesn't seem he cares all that much at the moment.

Illwinsagain · Dec 5, 2017

FollowTisdale said:
The Marlins came out and said they need to cut payroll to $90MM, and there were rumors out there that number is actually going to be closer to $75MM. If they stand pat, their opening day payroll in 2018 would be $132MM.

It's possible, but in no way plausible, that they could hold on to Stanton while shedding payroll elsewhere. To cut $42MM in payroll without moving Stanton, they've have to trade Ozuna ($12MM), Dee Gordon ($10.8MM), Martin Prado ($13.5MM), and Yelich ($7MM). A Marlins team with Stanton and none of those players wins probably 60 games next year with no good young players left on the team to build for the future.

There's just no realistic scenario where Stanton doesn't get traded to the Giants or Cardinals at this point. The Dodgers don't want him, if they did and had even close to a reasonable deal, they'd have made the deal a month ago.

I am not familiar with Prado's value. There are teams that would want Gordon, more so, Ozuna and Yelich. They would be getting back some seriously good young talent. Again, the easiest answer is Stanton, but if he balks, he can essentially play with a very talented AAA team. Not the worse scenario in South Beach if he is cool with hanging out.

FollowTisdale · Dec 5, 2017

My whole point is the Marlins won’t take bad contracrs back from the Dodgers, because they can’t, because they are under a mandate from owners to cut payroll. And even more importantly, the Dodgers aren’t offering anything at all, they have shown no interest in a Stanton trade, at least if we believe what the national reports have relayed.

But it really doesn’t matter, I’m assuming this is all over in the next couple days. If they actually gave him the choice of Giants or Cardinals, I assume he’s choosing the Giants. Hopefully the Cardinals showed him the Giants won’t be sniffing the playoffs for the majority of his contract

FollowTisdale · Dec 5, 2017

Illwinsagain said:
I am not familiar with Prado's value. There are teams that would want Gordon, more so, Ozuna and Yelich. They would be getting back some seriously good young talent. Again, the easiest answer is Stanton, but if he balks, he can essentially play with a very talented AAA team. Not the worse scenario in South Beach if he is cool with hanging out.

Prado and Gordon are both on market rate contracts (and Ozuna pretty much) and won’t get much back in a trade. Yelich should get a couple prospects back, but the Marlins don’t really have a stellar farm system to replace those guys either. I mostly just threw those guys in there to show that the Marlins would be dumping ALL of their good major leaguers if Stanton declines both SF and STL offers.

It’s gotta be tiring for him, playing on a bad team, never been to the playoffs, in front of about 200 fans a night in Miami

hermie1985 · Dec 5, 2017

FollowTisdale said:
My whole point is the Marlins won’t take bad contracrs back from the Dodgers, because they can’t, because they are under a mandate from owners to cut payroll. And even more importantly, the Dodgers aren’t offering anything at all, they have shown no interest in a Stanton trade, at least if we believe what the national reports have relayed.

But it really doesn’t matter, I’m assuming this is all over in the next couple days. If they actually gave him the choice of Giants or Cardinals, I assume he’s choosing the Giants. Hopefully the Cardinals showed him the Giants won’t be sniffing the playoffs for the majority of his contract

I get your point. I also get Stanton's power. No pun.

blmillini · Dec 5, 2017

Illwinsagain said:
I am not familiar with Prado's value. There are teams that would want Gordon, more so, Ozuna and Yelich. They would be getting back some seriously good young talent. Again, the easiest answer is Stanton, but if he balks, he can essentially play with a very talented AAA team. Not the worse scenario in South Beach if he is cool with hanging out.

Smh

hermie1985 · Dec 7, 2017

Marlins dump Dee Gordon contract with a trade with the Mariners. Not sure what this means in regards to Stanton.

hermie1985 · Dec 7, 2017

Rumor that Ozuna will be traded soon.

hermie1985 · Dec 8, 2017

Supposedly Stanton rejects trades to Cards and Giants. No surprise since there had been no movement.

Misch of Sirius says list is Dodgers, Yankees, Cubs & Astros

Future Walk-On · Dec 8, 2017

hermie1985 said:
Supposedly Stanton rejects trades to Cards and Giants. No surprise since there had been no movement.

Misch of Sirius says list is Dodgers, Yankees, Cubs & Astros

Yeah this is stupid at this point.

FollowTisdale · Dec 8, 2017

hermie1985 said:
Supposedly Stanton rejects trades to Cards and Giants. No surprise since there had been no movement.

Misch of Sirius says list is Dodgers, Yankees, Cubs & Astros

Yea it's been too long, and Stanton doesn't realize that those teams he listed are some of the least likely to take the risk on this contract. They don't have too, they're already really good.

I'm hoping the Cardinals have a framework of what a Yelich or Ozuna deal would look like in addition to Stanton. Cards also have enough money/ prospects to make a trade with a different team and still wait out the Stanton situation.

hermie1985 · Dec 8, 2017

FollowTisdale said:
Yea it's been too long, and Stanton doesn't realize that those teams he listed are some of the least likely to take the risk on this contract. They don't have too, they're already really good.

I'm hoping the Cardinals have a framework of what a Yelich or Ozuna deal would look like in addition to Stanton. Cards also have enough money/ prospects to make a trade with a different team and still wait out the Stanton situation.

Not sure we have as much space under the salary cap as you imply. We essentially spent as much on Mikolas as we dumped with Leake. We also need a big time closer. I really think we just get one big bat unless we trade away some salary in Wacha, Grichuk, Piscotty etc.

I was really hoping to add Archer to the rotation and have him higher on my wish list than Stanton's long term contract. Mitigated because I know he'd probably be gone in 2.

So I'd like Archer, a closer and a bat. Prefer Yelich at a lower cost in the outfield with Pham and Fowler. I look forward to seeing if we can get consistent power with Martinez or Voit at first. I see diminishing roles for Grichuk, Piscotty and Gyrko so they are all available to trade.

FollowTisdale · Dec 8, 2017

hermie1985 said:
Not sure we have as much space under the salary cap as you imply. We essentially spent as much on Mikolas as we dumped with Leake. We also need a big time closer. I really think we just get one big bat unless we trade away some salary in Wacha, Grichuk, Piscotty etc.

I was really hoping to add Archer to the rotation and have him higher on my wish list than Stanton's long term contract. Mitigated because I know he'd probably be gone in 2.

So I'd like Archer, a closer and a bat. Prefer Yelich at a lower cost in the outfield with Pham and Fowler. I look forward to seeing if we can get consistent power with Martinez or Voit at first. I see diminishing roles for Grichuk, Piscotty and Gyrko so they are all available to trade.

Goold (the beat reporter) said the Cardinals were willing to go to the luxury tax threshold in salary if they needed too, which is $196MM. As it sits now, the Cardinals opening day payroll is $126MM. They're not going to spend just to spend, but that's a loooot of room.

hermie1985 · Dec 11, 2017

First two off season moves, Mikolas and Gregerson, feel very Mo and Dewitt while the Cubs grab Morrow.